New Rumblings from ProFootball Weekly (NOT PFT)

[General Chaos]

July 23, 2007

The way we hear it:
07/23/07

Feeling like his future might be on thin ice in Arizona following the ’06 campaign, former first-round pick Calvin Pace was openly talking about a possible interest in his services on the part of the Texans, a team in need of a pass-rush boost. But it’s looking like Pace, who was drafted as a defensive end, could be in the Cardinals’ mix this season as an outside linebacker on a team where pass rushers still appear to be in short supply. Word is Pace, who was active in pre-training-camp activities, could really push veteran Bertrand Berry, who has yet to strut his stuff this offseason, for one of the team’s OLB roles. As for another former Cardinals first-day pick, ’05 third-round LB Darryl Blackstock, our sources in the desert believe his future looks a lot less promising, and that Blackstock could be entering a make-or-break training camp.

 

[kerouac9]

Thanks for nothing, Calvin. Don't let the door hit you on the way out, and make sure that it's open so you don't fall through it.

What a busted pick and disaster.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Thanks for nothing, Calvin. Don't let the door hit you on the way out, and make sure that it's open so you don't fall through it.

What a busted pick and disaster.

I say we try to trade Calvin Pace for Dunta Robinson.

HA! Never would happen but the Texans did pass on Young, and Bush.

If we could get ANYTHING for Pace, I say do it!

 

[Mitch]

I say we try to trade Calvin Pace for Dunta Robinson.

HA! Never would happen but the Texans did pass on Young, and Bush.

If we could get ANYTHING for Pace, I say do it!

Good thought, Rugby.

The thing is...Calvin Pace wouldn't make the Texans' roster...all four of their DEs are better: Anthony Weaver, Mario Williams, N.D. Kalu and Jason Babin.

 

[The Commish]

Not to mention Darryl Blackstock being a busted pick in the 3rd round...

2nd, 3rd and 4th round picks are just as important as 1st round picks. You can't win in this league without hitting on a few of those. What a waste...

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Good thought, Rugby.

The thing is...Calvin Pace wouldn't make the Texans' roster...all four of their DEs are better: Anthony Weaver, Mario Williams, N.D. Kalu and Jason Babin.

ND Kalu is about as good as Calvin Pace.

Jason Babin is horrible. He has no "position". He is not strong enough to be a DE, and not .......well that is Calvin Pace in a nutshell.

Stupid Calvin Pace not worth squat.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I agree that Green's drafting was mediocre at best.

Edit - That being said the reason Green looked like he was doing well, was because the drafts before him were abominations.

 

[General Chaos]

Good thought, Rugby.

The thing is...Calvin Pace wouldn't make the Texans' roster...all four of their DEs are better: Anthony Weaver, Mario Williams, N.D. Kalu and Jason Babin.

The Texans run a 3-4. Pace would play OLB (Same as a guy like Merriman) for them.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

The Texans run a 3-4. Pace would play OLB (Same as a guy like Merriman) for them.

Naw dog, they switched to a 4-3 last year.


Making Calvin Pace as worthless to them as Jason Babin

 

[40yearfan]

Thanks for nothing, Calvin. Don't let the door hit you on the way out, and make sure that it's open so you don't fall through it.

What a busted pick and disaster.

GC's post says that he's pushing Berry for the starting job. What makes you think the Cards are going to get rid of him?

 

[kerouac9]

I agree that Green's drafting was mediocre at best.

Edit - That being said the reason Green looked like he was doing well, was because the drafts before him were abominations.

I don't know--Dockett, Watson, Smith, Dansby, Rolle, and Green were all Green draft picks. That's 6 of our starting 11. Another 2--Berry and Okeafor--were Green free agents. And that doesn't count Francisco, who was a undrafted college free agent under Green.

On the offensive side, Leinart, Fitz, Pope, and Lutui are all Green draft picks. Then you have Elton Brown (whom were depending upon to a scary degree) and Nick Leckey, who are going to be second team. Edge was acquired under Green, as well.

Considering where this team started when Green came to town, it doesn't really seem justified to accuse Green of screwing up draft picks.

 

[jefftheshark]

I don't know--Dockett, Watson, Smith, Dansby, Rolle, and Green were all Green draft picks. That's 6 of our starting 11. Another 2--Berry and Okeafor--were Green free agents. And that doesn't count Francisco, who was a undrafted college free agent under Green.

On the offensive side, Leinart, Fitz, Pope, and Lutui are all Green draft picks. Then you have Elton Brown (whom were depending upon to a scary degree) and Nick Leckey, who are going to be second team. Edge was acquired under Green, as well.

Considering where this team started when Green came to town, it doesn't really seem justified to accuse Green of screwing up draft picks.

Agreed. I wish Green was the Director of Player Personnel. I would say GM, however I wouldn't want him having anything to do with the hiring of Coaches.

The Shark

 

[Shane]

I don't know--Dockett, Watson, Smith, Dansby, Rolle, and Green were all Green draft picks. That's 6 of our starting 11. Another 2--Berry and Okeafor--were Green free agents. And that doesn't count Francisco, who was a undrafted college free agent under Green.

On the offensive side, Leinart, Fitz, Pope, and Lutui are all Green draft picks. Then you have Elton Brown (whom were depending upon to a scary degree) and Nick Leckey, who are going to be second team. Edge was acquired under Green, as well.

Considering where this team started when Green came to town, it doesn't really seem justified to accuse Green of screwing up draft picks.

Rolle and Green are marginal starters at this point. They are starters but probably shouldnt be based on last years level of play. Hood will likely unseat one of them. So both of those draft picks are iffy as of right now.

The jury is still out on Watson. He was ok in spots last yeat but certainly was nothing great. Smith is another average joe back-up who seems to do ok but we still dont know if he will start this year. The article I read said he will contend.

Dansby is somewhat of a malcontent. But yes he a very good player. Dockett is still up and down way to much for my liking.

Pope sucked last year may still suck this year.

Yes Leinart was picked under Greens tenure. But lets be honest we would have snatched him up at #10 no matter who was coaching. It was an official no brainer.

I think Green who has been touted as soem draft guru has been mediocre at best. Just because some guys are starting doesnt make it a good pick.

 

[jefftheshark]

Rolle and Green are marginal starters at this point. They are starters but probably shouldnt be based on last years level of play. Hood will likely unseat one of them. So both of those draft picks are iffy as of right now.

The jury is still out on Watson. He was ok in spots last yeat but certainly was nothing great. Smith is another average joe back-up who seems to do ok but we still dont know if he will start this year. The article I read said he will contend.

Dansby is somewhat of a malcontent. But yes he a very good player. Dockett is still up and down way to much for my liking.

Pope sucked last year may still suck this year.

Yes Leinart was picked under Greens tenure. But lets be honest we would have snatched him up at #10 no matter who was coaching. It was an official no brainer.

I think Green who has been touted as soem draft guru has been mediocre at best. Just because some guys are starting doesnt make it a good pick.

I guess after a draft like 2002, where we drafted the likes of Wendell Bryant, Lavar Fisher, Josh McCown, Nate Dwyer, McAddley, Scobey, and Banks, almost anyone would look like a genius.

JTS

 

[kerouac9]

Dude, Shane. Whether or not you like the players is immaterial. The players are starters. You can hurl mud at Dansby, Watson, Rolle, and Smith all you want, but there's no arguing the fact that they're all starters going into camp, and likely they'll be starters going into the season. Whis and Graves weren't able to replace them, they must be all right.

Getting 10 starters out of 3 drafts after 4 years is pretty good for any coach, and way above average. I mean, it would probably help if you actually substantiated your opinions with some facts, but I guess you're too good for that, huh? Something like who you think is a better drafting coach. No one said that Denny Green was some draft guru--I certainly didn't. But I don't think that he deserves to have crap thrown on his record as a drafter here, either.

Who would you have rather had than Stepanovich, Blackstock, Lance Mitchell, and some of the other guys that haven't made the team?

Or what are some teams that you think have done better? The Titans, for example, have 10 players in their starting lineup that were draft picks between 04-06, but only 2 members of their defensive back seven. And that's out of a staggering 34 total draft choices in those three years. To get 10 starters out of 21 picks is pretty darn good. In any league.

 

[Wild Card]

Getting 10 starters out of 3 drafts after 4 years is pretty good for any coach, and way above average... To get 10 starters out of 21 picks is pretty darn good. In any league.

K9:

I think it's relevant with what team those results were achieved. And the ease with which Cardinals' veterans were replaced during Dennis Green's tenure is indicative of how bad some of the starting "talent" he inherited was. Green didn't need to be a "draft guru" to upgrade his first-stringers through the draft. Simple competence in talent evaluation was enough. (Besides, upgraded starters or not, Green produced the same three-season record of 16-32 as his predecessor. But I digress.)

I'd challenge you to find a team with a winning record over the last three seasons for which more than half of Green's 10 drafted starters would be starting this season. Other than Larry Fitzgerald--and maybe Matt Leinart, depending on how settled the team is at QB--I don't see a lock on your list to start for the league's better teams.

WC

 

[kerouac9]

K9:

I think it's relevant with what team those results were achieved. And the ease with which Cardinals' veterans were replaced during Dennis Green's tenure is indicative of how bad some of the starting "talent" he inherited was. Green didn't need to be a "draft guru" to upgrade his first-stringers through the draft. Simple competence in talent evaluation was enough. (Besides, upgraded starters or not, Green produced the same three-season record of 16-32 as his predecessor. But I digress.)

I'd challenge you to find a team with a winning record over the last three seasons for which more than half of Green's 10 drafted starters would be starting this season. Other than Larry Fitzgerald--and maybe Matt Leinart, depending on how settled the team is at QB--I don't see a lock on your list to start for the league's better teams.

WC

I agree with you in a lot of ways, but I think that there are a lot of teams that Karlos Dansby would start for, for example. I think there are a number of teams in the NFL for whom Duce Lutui would start. I think that Antrel Rolle would start for a number of NFL teams, but not on the right side where he plays now. Dockett would start for a number of very good teams in the NFL. I agree that you're getting a little shaky when you get to the Leonard Popes and Gabe Watsons, but that's still a pretty solid little list beyond Fitz and Leinart.

You really don't think that Dansby could beat out either Scott Fujita or Scott Shanle if he were a Saint? Or start over Donnie Edwards on the Chiefs?

I'm not even one of the guys here who think that this team is talented enough to compete for a playoff spot right now, but I do think that there's NFL talent on this team, and that most of the NFL talent was guys who were brought in by Dennis Green. Under Graves, the talent on this team was embarrassing. Under Green, this team seemed talented enough that it took a remarkably bad series of breaks and coaching blunders to keep it from being at least 7-9.

Of course, your challenge is kind of difficult. A team with a winning record over the past three seasons? Take the Chiefs (26 wins in the past three seasons):

QB - Leinart would start over Huard or Croyle
RG - Duce Lutui over Chris Bober or John Welbourn
WR - Larry Fitzgerald over Kennison or Parker
DT - Darnell Dockett over Ron Edward or James Reed
ROLB - Karlos Dansby over Donnie Edwards
RCB - Antrel Rolle over Patrick Surtain
SS - Aaron Francisco over Bernard Pollard

That's 7 of the 10, even if you want to quibble with Rolle over Surtain and Francisco over Pollard. `

Let me see how many I can place on the Bengals...

WR - Fitz over Houshmanzadeh
RG - Lutui would have a good competition with Bobbie Williams
C - Leckey would beat out Chris Ghiaciuc--Alex Stepanovich might, anyway.
DT - Dockett would start over John Thornton
OLB - Dansby over Landon Johnson or Rashad Jeanty
CB - Rolle would likely be able to oust either Johnathan Joseph or Deltha O'Neal out of a job
SS - Could Aaron Francisco give Dexter Jackson a run for his money?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Dude, Shane. Whether or not you like the players is immaterial. The players are starters. You can hurl mud at Dansby, Watson, Rolle, and Smith all you want, but there's no arguing the fact that they're all starters going into camp, and likely they'll be starters going into the season. Whis and Graves weren't able to replace them, they must be all right.

Getting 10 starters out of 3 drafts after 4 years is pretty good for any coach, and way above average. I mean, it would probably help if you actually substantiated your opinions with some facts, but I guess you're too good for that, huh? Something like who you think is a better drafting coach. No one said that Denny Green was some draft guru--I certainly didn't. But I don't think that he deserves to have crap thrown on his record as a drafter here, either.

Who would you have rather had than Stepanovich, Blackstock, Lance Mitchell, and some of the other guys that haven't made the team?

Or what are some teams that you think have done better? The Titans, for example, have 10 players in their starting lineup that were draft picks between 04-06, but only 2 members of their defensive back seven. And that's out of a staggering 34 total draft choices in those three years. To get 10 starters out of 21 picks is pretty darn good. In any league.

tommy knight started for this team. starting for the cardinals means nothing, zilch, zip, nada, zero.

 

[Wild Card]

...your challenge is kind of difficult. A team with a winning record over the past three seasons? Take the Chiefs (26 wins in the past three seasons):

QB - Leinart would start over Huard or Croyle
RG - Duce Lutui over Chris Bober or John Welbourn
WR - Larry Fitzgerald over Kennison or Parker
DT - Darnell Dockett over Ron Edward or James Reed
ROLB - Karlos Dansby over Donnie Edwards
RCB - Antrel Rolle over Patrick Surtain
SS - Aaron Francisco over Bernard Pollard

That's 7 of the 10, even if you want to quibble with Rolle over Surtain and Francisco over Pollard. `

Let me see how many I can place on the Bengals...

WR - Fitz over Houshmanzadeh
RG - Lutui would have a good competition with Bobbie Williams
C - Leckey would beat out Chris Ghiaciuc--Alex Stepanovich might, anyway.
DT - Dockett would start over John Thornton
OLB - Dansby over Landon Johnson or Rashad Jeanty
CB - Rolle would likely be able to oust either Johnathan Joseph or Deltha O'Neal out of a job
SS - Could Aaron Francisco give Dexter Jackson a run for his money?

K9:

You did better than I expected, although you rate Antrel Rolle and Aaron Francisco higher than I do. I think it's telling, however, that you picked two teams that finished last season at .500 (the Bengals, with the league's #31 defense in YPG) or close to it (the 9-7 Chiefs, who were embarrassed in the playoffs), both of which have some obvious personnel needs. Even on those squads, I think that half of the 10 Cardinals starters drafted during Green's tenure would struggle to crack the starting line-up.

I agree with your main premise, that "there's NFL talent on this team, and that most of the NFL talent (is) guys who were brought in by Dennis Green." But I also agree that this team is not yet talented enough top-to-bottom to contend for a playoff berth. And I think that only a handful of the Cards' first-stringers would displace the starters of any of the league's elite teams.

WC

 

[BigRedArk]

Rolle and Green are marginal starters at this point. They are starters but probably shouldnt be based on last years level of play. Hood will likely unseat one of them. So both of those draft picks are iffy as of right now.

The jury is still out on Watson. He was ok in spots last yeat but certainly was nothing great. Smith is another average joe back-up who seems to do ok but we still dont know if he will start this year. The article I read said he will contend.

Dansby is somewhat of a malcontent. But yes he a very good player. Dockett is still up and down way to much for my liking.

Pope sucked last year may still suck this year.

Yes Leinart was picked under Greens tenure. But lets be honest we would have snatched him up at #10 no matter who was coaching. It was an official no brainer.

I think Green who has been touted as soem draft guru has been mediocre at best. Just because some guys are starting doesnt make it a good pick.

Hmm curious you failed to mention Fitz. Also Leckey. I guess James being this team's first 1000 yard rusher since 1998 (between 1984 and 1998 I think the Card's had a whopping one 1000 yard RB-Stump Mitchel) doesn't impress you much. Dansby a malcontent? He had some problems during training camp last year but your definition of a malcontent is questionable.

I guess DG gets no credit from you for not trading up to get Leinart. Instead he played it cool and waited until he fell into his lap. Previous draft guru's for the Card's would have either traded up to get him and gave up too much or waited until someone else snatched them from under their collective noses.

Memo to Shane: Dennis Green signifigantly upgraded the talent on this team.

 

[ajcardfan]

Whisenhunt is inheriting a team with far more talent than the one Green got. Since we didn't get a player without Green's approval while he was here, he deserves a lot of credit for that. He also deserves scorn for his W-L record though, and that's more important.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

New year, same old preseason hype for one Mr. Pace. I'm guessing we'll see that same regular season results or lack thereof for Calvin as well.

 

[kerouac9]

New year, same old preseason hype for one Mr. Pace. I'm guessing we'll see that same regular season results or lack thereof for Calvin as well.

Pace is talking up the Texans because his old coach, one Frank Bush, is there. I have a hard time believing that anyone else in the NFL is going to be looking for this guy. I agree that we're going to hear the usual "Pace has shown up in the best shape of his career and is ready to make an impact" hulaballoo, and it'll amount to nothing once the games begin to count.

Which is a shame, because the Cards are again counting on him to make a contribution this season.

 

[kerouac9]

K9:

You did better than I expected, although you rate Antrel Rolle and Aaron Francisco higher than I do. I think it's telling, however, that you picked two teams that finished last season at .500 (the Bengals, with the league's #31 defense in YPG) or close to it (the 9-7 Chiefs, who were embarrassed in the playoffs), both of which have some obvious personnel needs. Even on those squads, I think that half of the 10 Cardinals starters drafted during Green's tenure would struggle to crack the starting line-up.

I agree with your main premise, that "there's NFL talent on this team, and that most of the NFL talent (is) guys who were brought in by Dennis Green." But I also agree that this team is not yet talented enough top-to-bottom to contend for a playoff berth. And I think that only a handful of the Cards' first-stringers would displace the starters of any of the league's elite teams.

WC

You're right, I don't think that a lot of those guys could start for the Colts, Pats, or Chargers. I really didn't think that most of those guys could even start for a team like the Jags, whom it must be extremely frustrating to be a fan of, because they arguably have more talent than the Cards, but fail to succeed.

I don't think we're really arguing--I think we see eye-to-eye on where this roster is. At really important positions -- CB, OT (both), TE -- the Cards really don't have the talent to be competitive right now. No one thinks that Mike Gandy is going to become one of the Top 15 OLTs in the NFL this season, which likely means that we'll give up more sacks this season even with far fewer pass attempts. And the depth still isn't there. We are depending on UDFAs to fill important special teams roles that should be filled with mid-round picks. Hopefully, this is the area where guys like Brandon Johnson, Buster Davis, and Daryl Blackstock can really prove their value. If those three can be active for 16 games and contribute on special teams, I think this team can make some (very small) waves.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

I agree that we're going to hear the usual "Pace has shown up in the best shape of his career and is ready to make an impact" hulaballoo, and it'll amount to nothing once the games begin to count.

I am tired of hearing this every year .. its time for Pace to show up or go ...

I am agreeing with you that once the real games start he will disappear ...