No Dumb Trades Please

[George O'Brien]

One of the things about most of the trade discussions on this board that bothers me is that I don't think this season is going to be saved. That means I cannot see trading guys with a lot of potential for a stop gap that won't even get the team into the playoffs.

The big problem is that the Suns do not have enough established players with good market value. That;s what it takes to justify a two for one, three for one trade like the one that brough in Barkley. JJ, Casey, and Barbosa have little trade value as of yet. Penny's contract is too big to unload. Voskuhl, White, and williams are all backup type centers and are not worth enough to get the Suns a star.
Even Zarko has limited market value because he has not played much yet.

Googs is only valuable to someone interested in unloading a big contract, which usually means the guy is not worth the $12 mil the Suns would have to pay.

So what is left? The market value for Amare is through the roof, but it would be insane to move him out. Stephon has some trade value, but Barbosa is at least a year away from being a real point guard.

This leaves Marion. He is expensive, but not out of line. But if he is the only guy the Suns can offer, it is unlikely the Suns will make much of an improvement in the process. Marion's game has picked up since he started playing PF and he can be very producive. But is that enough to trade the Suns a quality big man?

As for a shooter, I believe there will be somone available through free agency next summer without giving up someone of Marion's talent.

I wish it were otherwise, but I do not see the Suns making a major trade.

 

[creed]

I agree totally. We dont need some stop gap measure..we need to wait this out.

 

[arthurracoon]

I agree

 

[tobiazz]

Likewise. Instead of resigning Scott Williams next year I would like to see them sign a Piatkowski type of guy. I don't think any major trades will help them right now. They have all sorts of athleticism and I think they just need offensive and defensive schemes that are not too complicated (aside from just standing there while one player goes 1-on-1) because they have so many youngsters right now.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by tobiazz
Likewise. Instead of resigning Scott Williams next year I would like to see them sign a Piatkowski type of guy. I don't think any major trades will help them right now. They have all sorts of athleticism and I think they just need offensive and defensive schemes that are not too complicated (aside from just standing there while one player goes 1-on-1) because they have so many youngsters right now.

The Suns are definitely going to need to either re-sign Scott Williams or pick up another big man in free agency. Tom Gugliotta and Archibald will likely be gone from an already thin frontline.

I agree with everything else.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Scott Williams

Williams is a great bench warmer. I expect he will see a lot of action at PF for the next month. His ability to hit that mid range jump shot is very useful and he is likely to be able to do 10-15 minutes a game for several more years. Plus he's cheap.

Archibald was clearly cap ballast and Googs is gone. I wish they could send Trybanski to Europe to get some experience. He is supposed to be quite athletic, but may be too thin to be more than a shot blocker.

NEEDS;

An experienced pure shooter who can make his own shot and play defense.

A shot blocking inside player who can rebound and not foul out. Ideally he would be able to score 8-10 points a game on put backs and pick & roll plays.

 

[capologist]

An experienced pure shooter who can make his own shot and play defense.

I’m not sure how much need there is for the shooter to be able to make his own shot. Steph dominates the ball, and Amare should evolve into the kind of player who can command double teams and make the passes that lead to open shots for teammates. If you’re looking for a pure shooter, you may not have to look any farther than Casey Jacobsen.

If you want a shooter who can make his own shot, maybe you’re looking for somebody like, say, Leandro Barbosa.

A shot blocking inside player who can rebound and not foul out. Ideally he would be able to score 8-10 points a game on put backs and pick & roll plays.

Yes, we should definitely get somebody like, say, Amare Stoudemire.

We should also get somebody who can back up Shawn at SF, but also step inside to play PF and block shots and rebound when Amare needs a rest. Somebody like, oh, I don’t know, maybe Zarko Cabarkapa? I wonder what it would take to get him.

 

[carey]

Good point Cap. I agree. Let's see what we have when Amare and Zarko return. I think we are a radically different team with those two in the line-up.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Re: Scott Williams

Originally posted by George O'Brien


NEEDS;

An experienced pure shooter who can make his own shot and play defense.

A shot blocking inside player who can rebound and not foul out. Ideally he would be able to score 8-10 points a game on put backs and pick & roll plays.

Need #1: Zarko. He could well be our answer here. While he is not an experienced NBA player, he plays like one. He really looks like he has some maturity out there. The only other Suns player I remember doing that was Jeff Hornacek. He played like a vet from day one.

Brent Barry. He's a free agent and he fills this need. He adds a little age too, which right now would be a good thing. The problem is that of the 2's we now have (JJ, Penny, Casey, Barbs), someone would have to go. Might as well see of Seattle will take JJ now.

Need #2: Amare. His shot blocking has really improved, I think his defense will as well. If we can get Amare to buy in to a Alonzo Mourning type of game, we all will be happy. If Amare keeps demanding to be the #1 or #2 option on offense, other players will suffer.

Trybs. I sure would like to see what he's got. Maybe he'd be able to fill the 3rd center role by next year. We could add SWill to the coaching staff, and activate him as a player if something really bad happens to the others.

We might also have a decent draft pick in order to fill one or both of these needs (Cleveland pick, if things pick up some there?).

 

[tobiazz]

Re: Scott Williams

Originally posted by George O'Brien
Williams is a great bench warmer. I expect he will see a lot of action at PF for the next month. His ability to hit that mid range jump shot is very useful and he is likely to be able to do 10-15 minutes a game for several more years. Plus he's cheap.

Yeah, I guess I shouldn't worry about having too many centers. As long as Scott or Jake can play some minutes at PF, because they can't all split time at C and be effective. I was hoping to get a decent backup PF because I don't like to see Marion or Zarko (or JJ) play there.

 

[slinslin]

Re: Re: Scott Williams

Originally posted by JCSunsfan


Brent Barry. He's a free agent and he fills this need. He adds a little age too, which right now would be a good thing. The problem is that of the 2's we now have (JJ, Penny, Casey, Barbs), someone would have to go. Might as well see of Seattle will take JJ now.

That's just BS. It is the same whining and bitching that's going on on phxsuns.net.

This is no way to build up a young team. You need patience. You can't expect every young player to play at consistent star level in their first seasons.

Just look at Corey Magette now. You just don't give up on talented young players this early.

Shawn Marion has develloped into a shooter over the years, and I feel like he struggled earlier this season because they want him to become a slasher now and we already have that, on top of that he was just a shooting slump to start the season.
Stephon is a slasher, who can be deadly from outside, Amare is an inside player, our 3rd star has to be a shooter because nobody else will get enough shots to change the other teams defensive game plan.
Joe Johnson is also much better going to the basket, he is definately better than Marion in that aspect.

We don't need another SG right now. There is already logjam, I feel like the competition between Penny and JJ for the starting spot and the inconsistency in the starting lineups has hurt both of them now.

Barbosa should be develloped into a PG, don't screw him up by forcing him to play out of position now.
They did that with JJ trying to force him into a PG role in his first offseason here which was basically wasted effort when they should have tried to mold him into a Paul Pierce type of player.

We need all the money we can spend on free agents to get veterans in the frontcourt.

Need #2: Amare. His shot blocking has really improved, I think his defense will as well. If we can get Amare to buy in to a Alonzo Mourning type of game, we all will be happy. If Amare keeps demanding to be the #1 or #2 option on offense, other players will suffer.

He has to be the first option. If you want to win anything in the NBA your big man better be the first option especially when they are so good at getting to the line.

Amare becoming the first option will only help the Suns. He will definately draw the defense to him and either score, or pass it to the open man. That will force the other suns to move without the ball because they need to make themselves available in order for Amare to pass to them.

Amare's defense never looked like a problem to me, it was only a problem when the Suns rotated and doubled like crazy.

The Suns need to get a few pages out of San Antonio's offensive game plan. Amare is no Duncan yet, but the Suns need to capitalize much more on Amare's talent, give him the ball when he gets position, and re-post him.

 

[George O'Brien]

If you’re looking for a pure shooter, you may not have to look any farther than Casey Jacobsen.

I really like Casey and I think he is better all round player than was first expected when he was drafted. My concern is that he is pure catch and shoot guy. He needs an offense designed to get him open looks like what the Pacers do for Reggie Miller.

I still have hopes that JJ will evolve into the kind of player I'm looking for. Right now he lacks good judgment on when to shoot. He is not in position to shoot when open or knows to pass when he isn't. (By contrast, Zarko gets rid of the ball on shoot or pass better than anyone else on the team)

We don't need another SG right now

I was focused on what the team should do next summer. None of our current SG's are consistent enough to be primary options in the offense. This is one reason why when opponents press, Marbury ends up with the ball so much.

Need #1: Zarko. He could well be our answer here.

Zarko was never much of a shot blocker in Europe. His probably more of a SF who can play a little at PF, but the scounting reports suggest he is not a physical "presence" inside. In Europe, Varnes was the team's center.

 

[Dr. Dumas]

Re: Scott Williams

Originally posted by George O'Brien
[
NEEDS;

An experienced pure shooter who can make his own shot and play defense.

(Brent Barry)

 

[3rdside]

excellent post post slinslin

 

[tobiazz]

Re: Re: Re: Scott Williams

Originally posted by slinslin
This is no way to build up a young team. You need patience. You can't expect every young player to play at consistent star level in their first seasons. Just look at Corey Magette now. You just don't give up on talented young players this early.

Shawn Marion has develloped into a shooter over the years, and I feel like he struggled earlier this season because they want him to become a slasher now and we already have that, on top of that he was just a shooting slump to start the season.
Stephon is a slasher, who can be deadly from outside, Amare is an inside player, our 3rd star has to be a shooter because nobody else will get enough shots to change the other teams defensive game plan.
Joe Johnson is also much better going to the basket, he is definately better than Marion in that aspect.

Barbosa should be develloped into a PG, don't screw him up by forcing him to play out of position now.
They did that with JJ trying to force him into a PG role in his first offseason here which was basically wasted effort when they should have tried to mold him into a Paul Pierce type of player.

Amare becoming the first option will only help the Suns. He will definately draw the defense to him and either score, or pass it to the open man. That will force the other suns to move without the ball because they need to make themselves available in order for Amare to pass to them.

Amare's defense never looked like a problem to me, it was only a problem when the Suns rotated and doubled like crazy.

The Suns need to get a few pages out of San Antonio's offensive game plan. Amare is no Duncan yet, but the Suns need to capitalize much more on Amare's talent, give him the ball when he gets position, and re-post him.

Good points. Maybe they should try to mold JJ into a Kendall Gill type player, not a Paul Pierce one. I wouldn't say JJ is better than Marion at going to the hoop, either. He doesn't have great ball-handling or court vision to kick it out to the open man. Not that Marion does but he can elevate over the defense at least.

Amare will need to become the 1st option. The combo of Amare + Steph is actually pretty similar to Barkley + KJ. They can all create their own shots and run a good pick & roll. It will be tough for Amare to become as good as barkley was, but he can probably come close and have better D. I used to think Steph was as good as KJ but I changed my mind. Steph is fast and strong but KJ was really fast and a great penetrator and great in the open court. I'm not trying to start a flame war here, just making some points. I don't like comparing current and past players too much, but it is a reference for what to expect from our team.

 

[George O'Brien]

Amare

I love Amare, but I was disappointed that his toe surgery meant he could not do some of the work on fundimentals he needed over the summer. When I point this out, I am not saying he should be traded nor am I doubting he will someday be a super star. None the less:

1. He does not spot double teams and rarely hits the open man when double teamed. Instead he forces too many shots against double teams.

2. He does not have good anticipation when it comes to rebounding. Rodman had none of his physical gifts, but Rodman knew angles and distances from where the ball was shot. Amare lacks that as of yet. Instead he is often is out on the perimeter when the ball has been shot.

3. He tends to put the ball on the floor rather than just catching and shooting when in the paint. He is much better with put backs off rebounds than when he catches a pass. Kevin McHale was the best at shooting without even bringing the ball back to his body.

4. Amare is easily faked out of position by athletic big men.

All of this stuff can be learned, but it hard in an environment where there are constant back to back games.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I agree that Amare would have benefitted from summer league however just to respond to your points:

1.) I actually think that Amare is a getting to be good at passing out of the double team. We started to see it at the end of last season. Before he got hurt however, the rest of the team just stood around. I'm sorry, but if I was Amare, and Shawn's man doubles off of him, I wouldn't pass it either. I don't think anyone likes Shawn sitting at the 3 point line.

What would benefit him most would be if people actually cut to the hoop when they were doubled off of. If JJ or Marion would slide in, I would like to think that Amare would hit them.

There is no point of passing out of a double team to a player that will jack up a 20 foot jumpshot. Especially with the shooters we have.



2.) Anticipation has little to do with it. In fact, there are some plays where he anticipates rebounds perfectly (dunking off a rebound only happens with perfect anticipation).

Comparing him to Rodman isn't fair. Rodman said time and time again that he didn't care about scoring points, and that every time the ball went up, he made it his goal to get it. If all we wanted Amare to do was rebound, I think he would average over 14 a game. However, we want him to be a main threat on the boards, and also be able to run the floor.


3.) I agree with you here. Often times he will dribble once under the hoop, then try and go up. Of course, with his strength he usually gets the shot off fine and gets fouled. So it isn't a big deal, but he would be more effective if he just went back up with it.

4.) I wouldn't say he is easily faked. In fact, we havent even seen him go 1 on 1 with a good big man this season more than a handful of times. Frank constantly had him doubled. Not to mention he refused to have him guard the dominant big man. He would guard Rasho instead of TD, Kandi instead of KG ect. ect.

The biggest thing I want him to work on for defense is weakside help. He actually seemed to be doing it more consistantly before he got hurt. He is by far the best shot blocker on this team, and he needs to be aware of where the ball/cutters are at all times. He focusses to much on his man often on defense, when many times he is in position to contest a shot if he would just turn around.

However, I think that will fix itself with time.

 

[Chaplin]

Re: Amare

Originally posted by George O'Brien
I love Amare, but I was disappointed that his toe surgery meant he could not do some of the work on fundimentals he needed over the summer. When I point this out, I am not saying he should be traded nor am I doubting he will someday be a super star. None the less:

1. He does not spot double teams and rarely hits the open man when double teamed. Instead he forces too many shots against double teams.

2. He does not have good anticipation when it comes to rebounding. Rodman had none of his physical gifts, but Rodman knew angles and distances from where the ball was shot. Amare lacks that as of yet. Instead he is often is out on the perimeter when the ball has been shot.

3. He tends to put the ball on the floor rather than just catching and shooting when in the paint. He is much better with put backs off rebounds than when he catches a pass. Kevin McHale was the best at shooting without even bringing the ball back to his body.

4. Amare is easily faked out of position by athletic big men.

All of this stuff can be learned, but it hard in an environment where there are constant back to back games.

It's not like he's had many games (or many practices, for that matter) to accurately gauge quite yet how he is doing fundamentally. Especially now that there is a new coach, it might take even longer.

 

[George O'Brien]

Comparing him to Rodman isn't fair. Rodman said time and time again that he didn't care about scoring points, and that every time the ball went up, he made it his goal to get it.

I am referring to getting defensive rebounds. Offensive rebounds are more a function of the offensive sets, but defensive rebounds is about anticipation and positioning. Bobby Jackson of the Kings got 9 rebounds against the Suns and he is only 6'1" because he has great anticipation.

A lot of this is a function of coaching. The key is Learning to get in position for a defensive rebound is based on where the ball was shot from, rather than waiting for the miss. It about probabilities and knowing whether an opponent tends to miss long or short; hits the backboard or not, etc. Rodman man have been a jerk, but had this down to a science.

 

[Phill11]

IF Portland was Intrested in Trading, I would like to see this type of trade occur:


Suns Aquire:
Zach Randolph
Rasheed Wallace

We Trade:
Tom Gugliotta
Penny Hardaway
2nd Round Draft Pick


I would be willing to take these "Troubled" Players. Zach Randolph is just TEARING IT UP. Rasheed Wallace is a decent to above average player. In this deal we unload Two big Salaries and get rid of "as of late BIG MOUTH" Penny Hardaway. Portland Wants to get rid of Rasheed, desprately. Maybe this seems crazy but then our team could look like...

C- Amare Stodamire
PF- Zach Randolph
SF- Shawn Marion
SG- Joe Johnson/ Jacobsen
PG- Starbury

 

[Chaplin]

Randolph is probably the one guy on the entire Portland team that WON'T be traded.

 

[Phill11]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Randolph is probably the one guy on the entire Portland team that WON'T be traded.

I read in Sporting News there was talk of him MAYBE going. We should at least try.

 

[tobiazz]

Originally posted by Phill11
IF Portland was Intrested in Trading, I would like to see this type of trade occur:

Suns Aquire:
Zach Randolph
Rasheed Wallace

We Trade:
Tom Gugliotta
Penny Hardaway
2nd Round Draft Pick


I would be willing to take these "Troubled" Players.

That would be the greatest trade of all time. This one would NEVER happen, but it would be pretty damn cool.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

That is an inflated version of a Kobe for JJ trade. It is just So one sided. Not only do we get 16 million in salary relief from wallace, but we get a star PF (im guessing Amare becomes a C).

Dreaming is always nice however


Sporting News is a horrible source BTW. It is like the NY Post or Chicago Tribune when it comes to basketball trades (well not QUITE as bad)

 

[George O'Brien]

Randolph is a good prospect for the all star team. I would seriously consider any straight up trade for him, he's that good.

So the JJ for Kolbe trade is dead?

:twisted: