No........shaq

[mojorizen7]

I'm not sure what u guys r talking about. Isn't Shaq the leading rebounder of the Phoenix Suns in summer of 2008? How about his shape, speed and conditioning in March and April? We haven't seen Shaq on court for a single minute in 08-09 season. "Out of shape", "Fallen apart", "Too slow", where do u get these?

I know there r Shaq haters here. But such talking doesn't help the Phoenix Suns, not a bit. Shaq is here, if u wish this team good, why wish Shaq bad?

There are still SUNS fans that are big time D'Antoni fans and are therefore NOT shaq fans due to the fact that shaq's arrival here was essentially the beginning of the end of D'Antoni's job here & his small ball. We all want the same thing for our beloved SUNS its just that for some, D'Antoni 's departure marked the end of exciting basketball. I beg to differ.......but thats just me. I'm not a huge shaq fan,but i believe his presence here is a positive one in terms of boosting our playoff potential.

 

[msdundee]

There are still SUNS fans that are big time D'Antoni fans and are therefore NOT shaq fans due to the fact that shaq's arrival here was essentially the beginning of the end of D'Antoni's job here & his small ball.

Don't be so silly, really--you can't trace EVERYTHING back to blame on D'Antoni, although you sure try. There are plenty of Suns fans whose feelings about Shaq are longstanding--developed over the years of his career. Those feelings have nothing whatsoever to do with DA, and everything to do with Shaq himself. Bringing him in here last year and listening to all his BS would have made me run for a barf bag no matter who was coaching.

But here's to your consistent, unending and relentless beating of the dead horse.

 

[nowagimp]

But here's to your consistent ability to deduce basketball to "big guys win titles," a ridiculous over simplification if ever there was one.

so the last 11 titles went to Tim Duncan(4), Shaq(4), KG(1), Ben Wallace(1).

KG and Wallace were DPOY guys, best defenders in the NBA. KG's celtics went from a crappy defensive team to #1 in the NBA by adding ray allen? By adding eddie house? No by adding KG, James Posey, 2 guys. Big guys are more important as defenders and rebounders(presence). When 2 guys box your big man out every time, it clears up space for your other rebounders. When an extra defender is needed to physically contain your big man on offense, it creates space for other players. When your big man is closing down the lane to penetration with his dominant defense, your defenders can gamgle and overplay the outside shot, not back off fearing penetration. Suns fans should be acutely aware what happens when there is no dominant force in the middle, even homer simpson is likely aware of the suns weakenesses at the '5' after KT left, right?

 

[nowagimp]

But here's to your consistent ability to deduce basketball to "big guys win titles," a ridiculous over simplification if ever there was one.

so the last 10 titles went to Tim Duncan(4), Shaq(3), KG(1), Ben Wallace(1).

KG and Wallace were DPOY guys, best defenders in the NBA. KG's celtics went from a crappy defensive team to #1 in the NBA by adding ray allen? By adding eddie house? No by adding KG, James Posey, 2 guys. Big guys are more important as defenders and rebounders(presence). When 2 guys box your big man out every time, it clears up space for your other rebounders. When an extra defender is needed to physically contain your big man on offense, it creates space for other players. When you big man is closing down the lane to penetration with his dominant defense, your defenders can gamgle and overplay the outside shot, not back off fearing penetration. Suns fans should be acutely aware what happens when there is no dominant force in the middle, even homer simpson is likely aware of the suns weakenesses at the '5' after KT left, right?

 

[Irish]

I would add the need to be able to defend the post straight without double teams. What gets lost with the small badd defense is the ability to guard the shooters. You get to defend one or the other: post or perimete with small ball.

IMHO the Suns defense was too easy to game plan if you had a team that could pass and shoot. Someone was always open because with a little patience a good shot was always available.

 

[nowagimp]

I would add the need to be able to defend the post straight without double teams. What gets lost with the small badd defense is the ability to guard the shooters. You get to defend one or the other: post or perimete with small ball.

No, the suns with KT ran the ball much better than with shaq and were better defending the pick and roll as well. they also had bette spacing in the half court as KT was a good pick and pop shooter, unlike shaq, who shoots layups only. The suns lost their ability to defend the post when they gave KT + pick away in a salary dump. Look up your stats, the suns were top 3 in the NBA at defending the 3 point shot with KT.

 

[Irish]

Since the discussion was small ball, KT is not in the discussion.

Is Shaq better than KT. At some things yes and other things "not" For example, KT couldn't really keep Duncan from backing him down but KT was a far better shooter. Offensively, KT got his 10-11 points becaus no one bothered to guard him. Shaq would force double teams.

IMHO, It is more a question of situationS and matchups. But thos of us who pussed for KT to play along side Amare did so because it did not seem that small ball worked against the Spurs.

 

[AceP]

R u guys sure about this topic? "KT is better than Shaq"?!?

Please find out KT's performance in his 2 seasons in Phoenix b4 making such comparision! When the hell he got 10-11 points?!? And when the hell he has never got close to double digit rebounds?!

 

[arwillan]

R u guys sure about this topic? "KT is better than Shaq"?!?

Please find out KT's performance in his 2 seasons in Phoenix b4 making such comparision! When the hell he got 10-11 points?!? And when the hell he has never got close to double digit rebounds?!

KT isn't the better player, but he is/was better at some things. Shooting (particularly free throws) and pick and roll defense are both good examples

 

[az1965]

I was watching the Shaq that was actually on the court, not the one who runs around in your fantasies.

Ding, ding, ding...

 

[Covert Rain]

Some of you are just ridiculous haters. If it's not Shawn its Amare. If it's not Amare its Shaq. When Shaq and Amare are gone it will be somebody else.

This team was better at defensive rebounding and much tougher in the paint IMO then we have been in a very long time. That was the Shaq impact. Those are the two things the Suns talked about most and we got those 2 things.

Did it come at a cost? Ofcourse it did. The guy is eating up a ton of cap space and other aspects of our game are weaker. The way I look at it is... you can shore up team defense and shooting through free agency much easier then trying to shore up size and rebounding in free agency. I still think the Shaq move was the right move whether we get a title or not. If we still had Shawn and more cap space we still don't have a title. If you don't take a risk then you have no shot. Kudos to the Suns for making the move.

 

[mojorizen7]

Don't be so silly, really--you can't trace EVERYTHING back to blame on D'Antoni, although you sure try. There are plenty of Suns fans whose feelings about Shaq are longstanding--developed over the years of his career. Those feelings have nothing whatsoever to do with DA, and everything to do with Shaq himself. Bringing him in here last year and listening to all his BS would have made me run for a barf bag no matter who was coaching.

But here's to your consistent, unending and relentless beating of the dead horse.

Shaq hasn't been a so called slow,fat,out of shape,oft injured behemoth his whole career so if there are SUNS fans that just flat out don't like Shaq because of who he is thats something else and thats fine.
Do you agree that there is a large fan base that feels disheartened by the fact that D'Antoni & his up & down speed ball is gone?
Do you agree that Shaq's arrival and Marions departure was the spark that ultimately lead to D'Antoni's demise here?
If you answered yes to both & are a D'Antoni/small ball fan then don't you find it logical that these fans may be particularly overcritical of Shaq & the SUNS new philosophy of "going big?"
Is there a SUNS fan here that really hated to see D'Antoni & his style of basketball go.... yet is realistically supportive & feels positive of Shaq's presence here?

As for beating a dead horse, i'm guilty... but we are all SUNS fans and this is a SUNS forum where the same issues are discussed and debated over & over day after day,year after year.
I ask question's, I like to hear your's and others answers.....and vice versa.

 

[AceP]

Nobody is perfect. Shaq has flaws even in his prime, he's never been a good pick & roll defender, and he is on down hill. We have no disagreement here. But, he still got something left, something vital for playoff basketball, something very important for this Suns if the goal is to win it all, and, something could not be found from another player that possible to get.

D'Antoni might be a great coach, but he does not have the knowledge and experience to utilize a very traditional center like Shaq. Now it is Porter's duty to find a way to make this team CLICK with Shaq.

 

[95pro]

from here:

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/tribune_080924.html

BONUS SHOTS: Porter said everyone on the squad is healthy. The Suns have 14 players ready for camp after former Iowa State center Jiri Hubalek signed a guaranteed contract in Europe. Griffin said the Suns could add another big man to replace Hubalek, who like invitees Robert Hite and Trey Johnson, wouldn’t have been expected to make the team.




what does that mean about shaq? atleast i hope that mean/implies shaq is in shape.

 

[HooverDam]

Shaq hasn't been a so called slow,fat,out of shape,oft injured behemoth his whole career so if there are SUNS fans that just flat out don't like Shaq because of who he is thats something else and thats fine.

Obviously you're referring to me here. I would have NO PROBLEM if the Suns had the Shaq from the Lakers days on their team, but guess what? They don't! They have a player who's not worth half his contract, 'lead' the team to a worse winning percentage than the guy he replaced, rebounded at a worse rate, defender fewer positions, and was absolutely a joke and defending the pick and roll.

Was Shawn Marion the answer to interior defense? Of course not. Though I do still believe the team that was screwed by the officials had a good mix of interior and perimeter players, and the Suns management (and this does include D'Antoni) should've found a way to keep KT, or using Skinner better. Or perhaps trading Marion sooner, and getting better value for him, its insane that the Suns took a horrid contract off Miami's hands, one they were dying to get rid of, and couldn't get a draft pick sent our way.

But, what else should we expect from Steve Kerr? The guys been fleeced in every deal he's a part of.

 

[AceP]

Did it come at a cost? Ofcourse it did. The guy is eating up a ton of cap space and other aspects of our game are weaker. The way I look at it is... you can shore up team defense and shooting through free agency much easier then trying to shore up size and rebounding in free agency. I still think the Shaq move was the right move whether we get a title or not. If we still had Shawn and more cap space we still don't have a title. If you don't take a risk then you have no shot. Kudos to the Suns for making the move.

That is EXACTLY the point. Shaq's flaws r not hard to fix, by adding player and adjust the tactics. As Irish analysised in many other posts, even under D'Antoni, this team had a better record at the later part of the season, especially against top teams.

 

[nowagimp]

Since the discussion was small ball, KT is not in the discussion.

Since when is a 6'9"(in shoes) center a departure from small ball? The suns were a better rebounding team with KT, and were able to get out and run more consistently with nash LB, Raja, shawn and amare anyway. I disagree that KT was not part of the running small ball team, with KT playing 20-25 minutes the suns still were top 2-3 in fastbreaks in the NBA, but could actually play half court defense without doubling the post. Having KT back there allowed amare to get out and run earlier. And what PF in the NBA can guard amare on the break? None, none at all can do it. The suns were better at adapting to different tempos with KT(vs amare at C), but they still ran alot more than with shaq, alot more. Trading shaun for shaq and relying on a 36 year old replacement(Hill) for marion certainly slowed the suns running attack to mid pack in the NBA at best. That was the death of smallball in phoenix. Is shaq better than KT at some things? Absolutely, shaq is more physical, clogs the lane better against penetrators, but offensive spacing suffers with him, hill, and diaw on the floor. IMO, this is why they saw the lane clogged so effectively by the spurs on the pick and roll in the playoffs. Mostly, Amare cant be guarded by any 2 guys in the lane area. When the spacing is poor, a third guy clogs the lane and amare is less effective. To be fair, with shaq playing defense, amare will have more energy to be explosive on offense. But the lane is clogged and the best pick and roll in the NBA gets stymied by the lack of shooters to space the floor. I thought the chemistry/spacing with KT was better as he scares any opposing coach when open from 15-17'.

When the lakers similarly tried to clog the lane on the celtics in the championship series last year, Doc Rivers brought in Eddie House for rondo, and James Posey for Perkins to space the floor. Many scouts think that was the key adjustment as those guys killed the lakers from outside in the crunch.

After that everyone was asking "what is wrong with PJ"? Stuff like "rivers outcoached him" was being bandied about. Actually with no bynum, Jackson had to hide gasol in the interior defense, and gasol needed lot of hiding as he is a terrible defender/defensive rebounder at the '5'. The lakers help left the perimeter shooters open and the celtics took advantage. Rivers just took advantage of the lakers weak interior personnel, and PJ had to pick his poison as he didnt have the personnel to use single coverage down low. But yeah, rivers was "brilliant" as was popovich when he sent duncan down to the low block to work on marion, forcing the suns to decide to double and leave the perimeter open or have TD kill them. Yeah POP was a real genius for making that complex strategy(sarcasm).

 

[msdundee]

Shaq hasn't been a so called slow,fat,out of shape,oft injured behemoth his whole career
Do you agree that there is a large fan base that feels disheartened by the fact that D'Antoni & his up & down speed ball is gone?
Do you agree that Shaq's arrival and Marions departure was the spark that ultimately lead to D'Antoni's demise here?
If you answered yes to both & are a D'Antoni/small ball fan then don't you find it logical that these fans may be particularly overcritical of Shaq & the SUNS new philosophy of "going big?"

"Shaq hasn't been a so called slow,fat,out of shape,oft injured behemoth his whole career..."
Just for a major part of his career. He's averaged 65 games a season and that includes his healthiest two years as a rookie. Even his first 3 years in LA he missed 31/22/33 games. Except for maybe two years with the Lakers when he did come into camp in fairly good condition, he played most seasons obviously too heavy and looking less than fit--sucking wind and sweating buckets every time he hit the bench. That's why the sports writers did so much guesstimating of his "real" weight.

"Do you agree that there is a large fan base that feels disheartened by the fact that D'Antoni & his up & down speed ball is gone?"
Of course, it was great fun to watch. And not only Suns fans....in fact, not only fans. I've read more than one sports column bemoaning the fact that the Suns won't be the Suns any more.

"Do you agree that Shaq's arrival and Marions departure was the spark that ultimately lead to D'Antoni's demise here?"
No. I believe if Shaq's arrival and Marion's departure had been the spark that ultimately led to a title (as predicted) or even to an appearance in the finals (which would have been a positive sign), Kerr would have been taking bows for the trade and they might very well have given the status quo another year just to see how it could work out. Instead, it was one-and-done and of course D'Antoni had to go.

"If you answered yes to both & are a D'Antoni/small ball fan then don't you find it logical that these fans may be particularly overcritical of Shaq & the SUNS new philosophy of "going big?"
No problem with going big, it's entirely possible to accept the "philosophy" of going big and not agree with the personnel moves made in doing it. A lot of people like fish, hate anchovies.
IMO it gets harder and harder to be "overcritical" of Shaq. I don't hate him, but it's kind of weird, I like him even less now that he's a Sun.

 

[Mainstreet]

Actually, I think D'Antoni would have preferred big and fast over small and fast (small ball) if he could have gotten the players. I'm still not sure if Shaq was the right player to go after, however, he did fill a need in the middle. Also it seemed destined Marion and Banks were moving on so why not roll the dice. I can understand the Suns perspective.

However, IMO, I would have kept Marion and let his contract expire or try to work a trade. Sometimes I think getting rid of Banks was the catalyst in the trade for Shaq. He was like a pebble in a shoe. I'm hoping in the grand theme of things the Suns plan to get some good players in FA in 2010 when Shaq's and Nash's contracts expire. This is ultimately what I hope the Suns had in mind in making the trade along with the idea that Shaq may fill that need in the middle.

 

[Irish]

Since when is a 6'9"(in shoes) center a departure from small ball? ).

Go back and read quotes from D'Antoni following their loss to the Spurs.

For the entire regular season, the number of games where Amare and KT were on the floor at the same time were minimal. In most game, KT backed up Amare. It seemed like evryone suggested they be teamed up and they weren't.

D'Antoni felt playing both of them slowed down the team. Amare tended to be slow getting out on the break and KT lacked foot speed. The same issue could be true with Shaq, but Shaq is better at outlet passes.

In any case, it's not me that thinks KT slowed the team down. It was D'Antoni.

 

[HooverDam]

Actually, I think D'Antoni would have preferred big and fast over small and fast (small ball) if he could have gotten the players.

Exactly. This whole 'small ball v big ball' thing is a false dichotomy that I've been railing against for years now. Its just as false and silly as the 'left v right' distinction in American politics. Its not that D'Antoni wanted to go 'small' per se, he wanted to go skilled. Unfortunately the number of big guys who can shoot, pass, et cetera are pretty limited. If D'Antoni could've had a center like Aryvydas Sabonis, or Brad Miller during his peak, I'm sure he would've loved that, but guys like that are quite hard to come by. KT was pretty close though, and he did well in the Suns system.

 

[elindholm]

Its not that D'Antoni wanted to go 'small' per se, he wanted to go skilled. Unfortunately the number of big guys who can shoot, pass, et cetera are pretty limited. If D'Antoni could've had a center like Aryvydas Sabonis, or Brad Miller during his peak, I'm sure he would've loved that...

The "skill" D'Antoni values most is speed. What he would need is for a Dwight Howard to fall into his lap. He would have used a Sabonis or Miller -- he did use O'Neal, after all -- but I don't think he'd be happy about it. Big lumbering guys don't fit into his "system," no matter what their skill level is.

 

[nowagimp]

Go back and read quotes from D'Antoni following their loss to the Spurs.

For the entire regular season, the number of games where Amare and KT were on the floor at the same time were minimal. In most game, KT backed up Amare. It seemed like evryone suggested they be teamed up and they weren't.

D'Antoni felt playing both of them slowed down the team. Amare tened to be slow getting out on the break and KT lacked foot speed. The same issue could be true with Shaq, but Shaq is better at outlet passes.

In any case, it's not me that thinks KT slowed the team down. It was D'Antoni.

DA played fast paced small ball with big jake, jake voskuhl, stephen hunter, pat burke, all not speed merchants. Small ball has to do with putting up quick shots in transition before the defense is set, thats what they did with all those guys.

Well if DA thought KT slowed down the team, adding shaq and removing marion must have killed the team speed in his mind. From what I remember, KT and amare didnt play together too much as DA felt at least one of them was needed in the game. KT was only good for 25-27 minutes before he was too tired to defend effectively, and amare was the most foul prone player in the NBA, a bad combination. So it made sense to hold KT out in case amare sat with foul trouble early(happened all too often). A number of days, amare would only play 20-24 minutes saddled with fouls. If KT started with amare on those days, it would be ugly defensively when amare was sitting and KT sat down for a rest. DA could have brought amare in risking a 3rd foul and losing amare for more time as opposing teams tried to set amare up with fouls. In the playoffs KT played with amare more, but depth on the front line was not a strong point of that team and if they were both sitting against the spurs, it'd get real ugly down low on defense, AND the suns wouldnt be able to score with no inside game to keep the defense honest. For all the whining I've heard about KT not playing enough, not one poster acknowledged the problem of KT's minutes and amares foul trouble creating a problem with them playing alot of minutes together. One or two silly fouls by amare(or bogus ones called on him) and that scenario looks like a disaster.

 

[Irish]

I mostly agree, but D'Antoni did not play Jake Voskul very much. 2004-05 Jake averaged 9.5 minutes a game in just 38 games. Hunter averaged 13.8 minutes, mostly backing up Amare. He did a great job against Gasol, but overall he was a liability. And Burke, (Burke!!!!!!!!!!!).

Odd as it might seem, the Suns in 2004-05 had a very respectable 44.5% against shooting percentage and a seven point scoring advantage. IMHO this was not due to great technique but poor understanding of the Suns weakenesses. The 2006-07 team had a better point differential, but only a 45.7% against ratio.

 

[BC867]

Some of you are just ridiculous haters. If it's not Shawn its Amare. If it's not Amare its Shaq. When Shaq and Amare are gone it will be somebody else.

It wasn't Shawn who was hated (although his whining pushed him toward that) or Amare.

It was Marion being used as a Power Forward, pushing Amare to Center that I couldn't stand.

Having Shaq and Robin as legitimate Centers is light years ahead of anything the Suns have ever done in that area.

Even if Shaq is in the twilight of his career and Robin is a rookie, I love it.

I'm just hoping that Terry Porter is not pushed into moving Amare back to Center every night the game is on the line.

I hope the season will be spent getting the combination of Shaq and Robin playoff ready.