Not trying to bash but an honest question about Rod Graves.

[football karma]

BJ has been a relative bust

Sorry to go a little off topic-- but--

You know, for a mid 1st round pick, I am not sure BJ can really be called a bust. It took him a couple years to get going, but so do alot of draft picks. There are some guys taken around him that arent contributing at all to their teams. They are truly busts.

Is it his fault that a guy taken behind him turned out to be one of the best at his position, and that the team took a WR at his position #2 overall the next year?

BJs drops make me crazy too -- but I also think that if BJ were a #2 WR, he would put up some pretty good numbers.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Sorry to go a little off topic-- but--

You know, for a mid 1st round pick, I am not sure BJ can really be called a bust. It took him a couple years to get going, but so do alot of draft picks. There are some guys taken around him that arent contributing at all to their teams. They are truly busts.

Is it his fault that a guy taken behind him turned out to be one of the best at his position, and that the team took a WR at his position #2 overall the next year?

BJs drops make me crazy too -- but I also think that if BJ were a #2 WR, he would put up some pretty good numbers.

both Fitz and Boldin have had periods of the season that they've missed and BJ's numbers as a number two have been pathetic in that slot as well. Dude's never stepped up when given the chance and he's gotten a lot of them over the last three years.

 

[Hollywood]

superb? I think that's a little generous - I'd say considering our draft position, it's been competent, at best. Q was a GREAT pick, no doubt - an absolute smash and Deuce looks like he may be a very good pick, but Fitz and Lienart were no-brainers, plain and simple. I'm not gonna pat the Cards on the back for not being completely incompetent as far as those two picks are concerned.

Otherwise, Step was a complete bust, Arrington has been a pretty big disappointment from a second round pick, BJ has been a relative bust, Wells is mediocre at best, Pope has done nothing of worth and the jury is still out on Levi (who does look like he could be good now, but it's wayyyy too early to say anything good or bad about him right now).

Maybe surpurb was to strong but I don't think you can call Step a bust since he was 4th round and thrown into the fire and Pope was a rookie last year and is looking good so far this season. Arrington is a stud imo but untill he proves me right I don't have room to talk.

I will change it from surpurb to better.

 

[Hollywood]

Generally over the length of a contract the salary goes up and the caphit does too. We for years were signing flat contracts same salary each year so ours didn't really go up.

And of course you lose a half dozen or more guys each year and replace them so the salary is not constant.

But yes in theory as the cap goes up, players ask for more money.

So where is all this "extra" money coming from?

 

[Cheesebeef]

I will change it from surpurb to better.

that I can agree with.

 

[BigRedArk]

Heck, I'm a real loser, I'm not contending anymore, I'm there!

But to seriously answer your question, I don't place the blame for the losses squarely on any one person's shoulders, because there is plenty of blame to go around. But in an effort to explain my position, here is my scorecard:

1) IMHO, Graves is mediocre. He has made some much needed improvements to the team, but he has missed on some opportunities to help the team. He is trusted by the Owners and he will be here for a long time. I hope he gets better at his job to justify that trust.

2) The Bidwill family have there hearts in the right place and, from what I know of them, they are very nice people. They were not blessed with a lot of liquid assets, so they faced their economic situation by becoming frugal, almost to a fault. The new stadium has increased their cash flow, but in some ways they still act like people who lived through the Depression, in that they need to harbor their resources for the coming rainy day. This puts them at a disadvantage to many of the other Owners in the league, who have much deeper pockets and resources to draw from. Until the Owners change their mindset, any GM is going to be handcuffed.

3) I liked Denny Green's hiring. Denny, along with Graves and the Owners, upgraded the talent level on the team. Some of it was luck (Leinart), but for the most part, any success this team has in the future will come from the group of players assembled by this group.

But DG was not an x'&o's guy. His success in Minnesota was largely due to the staff he hired. His hires in Arizona never equaled what he had before.

My biggest problem with Denny was highlighted in the Bears game last year. As head coach, when he saw the wheels coming off, it was his job to yank the play calling out of his assistant's hands and take them over himself. He instead made the choice to watch the game unravel and when it was all over, he threw his OC under the bus.

My biggest problem with Graves was that he didn't fire Denny mid-season last year and make a statement that this situation would not be tolerated. My problem with the Owners is that they didn't force Graves to do his job.

4) The Players - IMHO there have been malingerers on this team that were not run off when they should have been. Nothing can infect an organization faster than employees with a bad attitude.

For example, I am angry that the organization didn't address the Leonard Davis situation very well. I didn't like him as a player and was glad to see him leave. I assume the organization didn't like him very much either, so they must have known that he was going to be leaving. For the FO to have all this information, and yet not have traded him last year for something/anything is inexcusable.

So, BigRed, feel free to call me out anytime you want, but being accurate in your name-calling would be more appreciated.

Because there is nothing "contented" about how I feel about this team.

JTS

Fair enough Jeff. Now where's that spellcheck when I need it? Attention: would BIM please report to the Mods desk?

 

[Russ Smith]

So where is all this "extra" money coming from?

The cap total is going up faster than our base payroll is, that's why we are able to frontload contracts in the first place.

 

[conraddobler]

Basically your credit him with nothing then. You right as though this is even handed but in reality everything there is slanted to the negative.

Love the cap management = bad comment. More accut=ratly it's laughable. Everything I heard suggested that if we needed more cap space it cold easily be found but simple restructuring. In fact iirc Urban or Somers made a comment like that.

I'll also equally sure you have now more idea than I do over who out of MB and RG is responsible for bringing them out of the stone age. Oh wait maybe I do, I know who was responsible for fixing issues with getting players into mini camps. I also know who was responsible for putting forward the first more creative contracts.

Do you just like hearing yourself talk about how you met Rod Graves?

Go ahead and remind us ONE MORE TIME.. that you have spoken to the man.

I don't need to speak to him, I can pull up the teams record on the internets and see that he stinks at his job.

Everyone but a blind sycophant could.

I credited him with helping to move the team out of the Stone age and I gave the most credit to Mike Bidwill, the man who finally got the stadium through, so Rod could have some money to do creative contracts on the wrong players.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Do you just like hearing yourself talk about how you met Rod Graves?

Go ahead and remind us ONE MORE TIME.. that you have spoken to the man.

I don't need to speak to him, I can pull up the teams record on the internets and see that he stinks at his job.

Everyone but a blind sycophant could.

I credited him with helping to move the team out of the Stone age and I gave the most credit to Mike Bidwill, the man who finally got the stadium through, so Rod could have some money to do creative contracts on the wrong players.

ouch.

 

[Stout]

Good job of illustrating my point way better than I could while I was away, guys.

 

[kerouac9]

Do you just like hearing yourself talk about how you met Rod Graves?

Go ahead and remind us ONE MORE TIME.. that you have spoken to the man.

I don't need to speak to him, I can pull up the teams record on the internets and see that he stinks at his job.

Everyone but a blind sycophant could.

I credited him with helping to move the team out of the Stone age and I gave the most credit to Mike Bidwill, the man who finally got the stadium through, so Rod could have some money to do creative contracts on the wrong players.

 

[az1965]

Do you just like hearing yourself talk about how you met Rod Graves?

Go ahead and remind us ONE MORE TIME.. that you have spoken to the man.

I don't need to speak to him, I can pull up the teams record on the internets and see that he stinks at his job.

Everyone but a blind sycophant could.

I credited him with helping to move the team out of the Stone age and I gave the most credit to Mike Bidwill, the man who finally got the stadium through, so Rod could have some money to do creative contracts on the wrong players.

 

[Ryanwb]

Do you just like hearing yourself talk about how you met Rod Graves?

Go ahead and remind us ONE MORE TIME.. that you have spoken to the man.

I don't need to speak to him, I can pull up the teams record on the internets and see that he stinks at his job.

Everyone but a blind sycophant could.

I credited him with helping to move the team out of the Stone age and I gave the most credit to Mike Bidwill, the man who finally got the stadium through, so Rod could have some money to do creative contracts on the wrong players.

It pretty much had to be said......

 

[Cheesebeef]

I credited him with helping to move the team out of the Stone age and I gave the most credit to Mike Bidwill, the man who finally got the stadium through, so Rod could have some money to do creative contracts on the wrong players.

man, that post is harsh, but this last sentence is just comedic gold conrad.

 

[Skkorpion]

Do you just like hearing yourself talk about how you met Rod Graves?

Go ahead and remind us ONE MORE TIME.. that you have spoken to the man.

I don't need to speak to him, I can pull up the teams record on the internets and see that he stinks at his job.

Everyone but a blind sycophant could.

I credited him with helping to move the team out of the Stone age and I gave the most credit to Mike Bidwill, the man who finally got the stadium through, so Rod could have some money to do creative contracts on the wrong players.

ah, conrad, could you and your buddies remind us ONE MORE TIME.. that you hate Rod Graves? Or do you just like hearing yourselves talk about it?

 

[Cheesebeef]

fight! fight! fight! fight!

lotta love in this thread right now - lotta love.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Or do you just like hearing yourselves talk about it?

this is a rhetorical question, right?

 

[az1965]

Does anyone here hate Rod Graves??? I know I don't. How can I without even knowing the man. I know a lot of the folks are not satisfied with the "job" he is doing...

 

[Cheesebeef]

Does anyone here hate Rod Graves??? I know I don't. How can I without even knowing the man. I know a lot of the folks are not satisfied with the "job" he is doing...

i was going to ask the same thing because to me, "hate" implies a deep dislike of someone for completely irrational reasons. I just think the guy's incompetent at his job. I don't hate him - just wish he wasn't our GM.

 

[ajcardfan]

Thank goodness Cbus wasn't trying to bash Graves, or this thread might have gotten out of control.

 

[Scott MS]

I don't dislike Graves, but he, along with the Bidwill family, have been the only constants for the past several seasons.

After a new stadium, new uniforms, etc., this team still stinks -- not even a year or two of average. It's been year after year of underperforming teams.

Yeah, yeah, it's only pre-season, but I haven't even seen a glimmer of hope in four preseason games for this defense. They will give up 30 points a game. Let's just hope the offense can score 31 points a game.

 

[Scott MS]

Heck, I'm a real loser, I'm not contending anymore, I'm there!

But to seriously answer your question, I don't place the blame for the losses squarely on any one person's shoulders, because there is plenty of blame to go around. But in an effort to explain my position, here is my scorecard:

1) IMHO, Graves is mediocre. He has made some much needed improvements to the team, but he has missed on some opportunities to help the team. He is trusted by the Owners and he will be here for a long time. I hope he gets better at his job to justify that trust.

2) The Bidwill family have there hearts in the right place and, from what I know of them, they are very nice people. They were not blessed with a lot of liquid assets, so they faced their economic situation by becoming frugal, almost to a fault. The new stadium has increased their cash flow, but in some ways they still act like people who lived through the Depression, in that they need to harbor their resources for the coming rainy day. This puts them at a disadvantage to many of the other Owners in the league, who have much deeper pockets and resources to draw from. Until the Owners change their mindset, any GM is going to be handcuffed.

3) I liked Denny Green's hiring. Denny, along with Graves and the Owners, upgraded the talent level on the team. Some of it was luck (Leinart), but for the most part, any success this team has in the future will come from the group of players assembled by this group.

But DG was not an x'&o's guy. His success in Minnesota was largely due to the staff he hired. His hires in Arizona never equaled what he had before.

My biggest problem with Denny was highlighted in the Bears game last year. As head coach, when he saw the wheels coming off, it was his job to yank the play calling out of his assistant's hands and take them over himself. He instead made the choice to watch the game unravel and when it was all over, he threw his OC under the bus.

My biggest problem with Graves was that he didn't fire Denny mid-season last year and make a statement that this situation would not be tolerated. My problem with the Owners is that they didn't force Graves to do his job.

4) The Players - IMHO there have been malingerers on this team that were not run off when they should have been. Nothing can infect an organization faster than employees with a bad attitude.

For example, I am angry that the organization didn't address the Leonard Davis situation very well. I didn't like him as a player and was glad to see him leave. I assume the organization didn't like him very much either, so they must have known that he was going to be leaving. For the FO to have all this information, and yet not have traded him last year for something/anything is inexcusable.

So, BigRed, feel free to call me out anytime you want, but being accurate in your name-calling would be more appreciated.

Because there is nothing "contented" about how I feel about this team.

JTS

This has to be the post of the month. Well thought out and right on the money.


.

 

[ajcardfan]

Yeah, yeah, it's only pre-season, but I haven't even seen a glimmer of hope in four preseason games for this defense. They will give up 30 points a game. Let's just hope the offense can score 31 points a game.

Me either. This defense looks as poor as any we've had going into the season. Maybe this time we really do have a super-duper-secret plan for an awesome defense. But, if the D is even near average, I'll be thrilled based on what I've seen last season and this preseason.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Me either. This defense looks as poor as any we've had going into the season. Maybe this time we really do have a super-duper-secret plan for an awesome defense. But, if the D is even near average, I'll be thrilled based on what I've seen last season and this preseason.

what worries me most is the this - I know a lot of people keep saying that we're playing vanilla D and the defense can't possibly be judged until we see what happens when the regular season whistle blows, but EVERYONE in pre-season plays vanilla D - and that should mean that every defense in the NFL should look atrocious... but they don't. At some point, you have to acknowledge that the talent level on the D might put us in big trouble in the big picture this season.

 

[Scott MS]

Me either. This defense looks as poor as any we've had going into the season. Maybe this time we really do have a super-duper-secret plan for an awesome defense. But, if the D is even near average, I'll be thrilled based on what I've seen last season and this preseason.

I think this is like the 3rd year in the past 4 that the Cardinals 1st teams has finished the pre-season playing against Denver's 2nd team. All three times they have pretty much creamed the Cardinals.