Not trying to bash but an honest question about Rod Graves.

[Hollywood]

I'll believe it when I see it. First, I'll believe that we actually have the balls to quickly restructure so we can sign more talent when it actually happens. Next, I'll believe that we actually 'kept our powder dry' for the next FA period when the next FA period arrives and we don't simply rehash the same phrase for NEXT year. I'm tired of every year hearing that NEXT year we'll have plenty of cap space for FA. The sad thing is that people buy it every offseason.

Just because we don't sign an Edge type player every off season doesn't mean we are not signing players.

 

[Duckjake]

Just because we don't sign an Edge type player every off season doesn't mean we are not signing players.

We just sign players from our head coach of the month's former team anyway so what difference does it make?

Even McGinnis did it with former Bears players but since he had also been the Carinals dC for several years he also would re sign former Carinals players he had previously cut.

 

[Hollywood]

We just sign players from our head coach of the month's former team anyway so what difference does it make?

Even McGinnis did it with former Bears players but since he had also been the Carinals dC for several years he also would re sign former Carinals players he had previously cut.

What's wrong with a coach bringing in players that he is familiar with and know what he is about. It goes on all over the league.

 

[Russ Smith]

We just sign players from our head coach of the month's former team anyway so what difference does it make?

Even McGinnis did it with former Bears players but since he had also been the Carinals dC for several years he also would re sign former Carinals players he had previously cut.

Denny one uppped it he not only signed ex Vikings players, he LOVED to sign ex Stanford players too.

Although I readily admit to being happy when we signed Teyo Johnson, and Troy Walters actually played quite well for us I thought.

 

[Stout]

Just because we don't sign an Edge type player every off season doesn't mean we are not signing players.

There's signing some players (we signed a few decent, mid-level guys this year), and then there's maximizing your cap. Our FO did all they could to burn the massive amounts of cap space we had this year, claim it was a sparse market, and told us not to worry...we'd REALLY go after it NEXT offseason. Same thing we were told the year before.

 

[Hollywood]

There's signing some players (we signed a few decent, mid-level guys this year), and then there's maximizing your cap. Our FO did all they could to burn the massive amounts of cap space we had this year, claim it was a sparse market, and told us not to worry...we'd REALLY go after it NEXT offseason. Same thing we were told the year before.

I don't know what you mean by "burn the massive amounts of cap space"

We either signed players or we didn't. Can you dumb it down a little for me?

 

[Stout]

I don't know what you mean by "burn the massive amounts of cap space"

We either signed players or we didn't. Can you dumb it down a little for me?

Sure. We had massive amounts of cap space going into the FA period. Instead of using it to overhaul the roster, we signed some mid-level FAs to hugely frontloaded deals. Why? It burned up our cap space in huge gobs this year, while ostensibly leaving plenty of cap space next year because the deals are frontloaded. Never mind the fact that the cap will be bigger next year, and the FA market even more thin.

 

[Hollywood]

Sure. We had massive amounts of cap space going into the FA period. Instead of using it to overhaul the roster, we signed some mid-level FAs to hugely frontloaded deals. Why? It burned up our cap space in huge gobs this year, while ostensibly leaving plenty of cap space next year because the deals are frontloaded. Never mind the fact that the cap will be bigger next year, and the FA market even more thin.

In that case I disagree with you. That is a stratagy that can build a dynasty. Build the overall talent level of the team insted of just a couple of positions. But this, I think, is where we disagree on the job that Graves is doing.

 

[Cheesebeef]

In that case I disagree with you. That is a stratagy that can build a dynasty. Build the overall talent level of the team insted of just a couple of positions.

uh, good GMs, especially with the ridiculous amount of cap room we had, are able to do both - the Niners and Pats are proof of that, both of them signing or trading for impact guys while also adding a lot of talent on top of that (and neither of them had near the cap room that we did).

it's not an either or scenario.

 

[jefftheshark]

Another version I heard was that DG came in and told the B's that we were close to winning and it was agreed based on that that he wouldn't need to hire high-dollar assistants.

Since the Cards did lose badly during the DG years it was all Denny's fault and if they had won it would have been because of Graves' acumen as a GM huh Jeff? In all seriousness reading your previous post in this thread you sound like a very contended loser Jeff. I don't say that in a flippant way either.

Heck, I'm a real loser, I'm not contending anymore, I'm there!

But to seriously answer your question, I don't place the blame for the losses squarely on any one person's shoulders, because there is plenty of blame to go around. But in an effort to explain my position, here is my scorecard:

1) IMHO, Graves is mediocre. He has made some much needed improvements to the team, but he has missed on some opportunities to help the team. He is trusted by the Owners and he will be here for a long time. I hope he gets better at his job to justify that trust.

2) The Bidwill family have there hearts in the right place and, from what I know of them, they are very nice people. They were not blessed with a lot of liquid assets, so they faced their economic situation by becoming frugal, almost to a fault. The new stadium has increased their cash flow, but in some ways they still act like people who lived through the Depression, in that they need to harbor their resources for the coming rainy day. This puts them at a disadvantage to many of the other Owners in the league, who have much deeper pockets and resources to draw from. Until the Owners change their mindset, any GM is going to be handcuffed.

3) I liked Denny Green's hiring. Denny, along with Graves and the Owners, upgraded the talent level on the team. Some of it was luck (Leinart), but for the most part, any success this team has in the future will come from the group of players assembled by this group.

But DG was not an x'&o's guy. His success in Minnesota was largely due to the staff he hired. His hires in Arizona never equaled what he had before.

My biggest problem with Denny was highlighted in the Bears game last year. As head coach, when he saw the wheels coming off, it was his job to yank the play calling out of his assistant's hands and take them over himself. He instead made the choice to watch the game unravel and when it was all over, he threw his OC under the bus.

My biggest problem with Graves was that he didn't fire Denny mid-season last year and make a statement that this situation would not be tolerated. My problem with the Owners is that they didn't force Graves to do his job.

4) The Players - IMHO there have been malingerers on this team that were not run off when they should have been. Nothing can infect an organization faster than employees with a bad attitude.

For example, I am angry that the organization didn't address the Leonard Davis situation very well. I didn't like him as a player and was glad to see him leave. I assume the organization didn't like him very much either, so they must have known that he was going to be leaving. For the FO to have all this information, and yet not have traded him last year for something/anything is inexcusable.

So, BigRed, feel free to call me out anytime you want, but being accurate in your name-calling would be more appreciated.

Because there is nothing "contented" about how I feel about this team.

JTS

 

[Russ Smith]

My biggest problem with Denny was highlighted in the Bears game last year. As head coach, when he saw the wheels coming off, it was his job to yank the play calling out of his assistant's hands and take them over himself. He instead made the choice to watch the game unravel and when it was all over, he threw his OC under the bus.

My biggest problem with Graves was that he didn't fire Denny mid-season last year and make a statement that this situation would not be tolerated. My problem with the Owners is that they didn't force Graves to do his job.

Depends remember said OC after being thrown under said bus came right out and said Green DID in fact take over the playcalling in that game.

We will never know who told the truth but in my mind in either scenario Denny came out looking bad. If he let Rowen call all those stupid runs into Urlacher he was dumb, if he was calling those plays himself he was dumb.

Completely agree on the latter Green should have been canned the team quit on him, but who knows if we end up getting Whiz in that scenario? I'm less angry about that now I think Matt weathered that storm pretty well that was my main concern young guys like Matt spending their time with a lame duck staff who didn't care.

 

[Duckjake]

I liked Denny Green's hiring. Denny, along with Graves and the Owners, upgraded the talent level on the team. Some of it was luck (Leinart), but for the most part, any success this team has in the future will come from the group of players assembled by this group.

From where the talent level was in 2003 we could have run a poll on ASFN on who to draft and sign as FAs and vastly improved the talent.

We have to remember that the team lost a ton of talent from 1999-2002(we'll have to check with 40 to see how many years that was )

Through Free Agency, Injuries, age and poor attitudes we lost Simeon Rice, Jamir Miller,Andre Wadsworth, Eric Swann, Mark Smith,Aeneas Williams,David Boston,Frank Sanders, Thomas Jones, Larry Centers,Lomas Brown,Corey Chavous and Jake Plummer. All of those guys either were pro-bowl players, contributors to the 1998 playoff run or made solid contributions to other teams once they left.

By comparison look at the guys we've lost since 2003. LJ Shelton,LDavis and......????

The problem for the future imo is that we've seen the offense rebuilt but not the defense.

 

[jefftheshark]

Depends remember said OC after being thrown under said bus came right out and said Green DID in fact take over the playcalling in that game.

We will never know who told the truth but in my mind in either scenario Denny came out looking bad. If he let Rowen call all those stupid runs into Urlacher he was dumb, if he was calling those plays himself he was dumb.

Completely agree on the latter Green should have been canned the team quit on him, but who knows if we end up getting Whiz in that scenario? I'm less angry about that now I think Matt weathered that storm pretty well that was my main concern young guys like Matt spending their time with a lame duck staff who didn't care.

I've always thought that the famous press conference rant was due to Denny's knowing that he was going to be canned right after the camera lights went out. It's the "better to burn out, than to fade away" theory.

That he wasn't fired was either a management blunder or some kind of subtle revenge by the Owners (by forcing him to fade away).

I had the same concerns last year about the lame duck situation. That Matt weathered the storm is pure luck, IMHO. To place the QBOF in a situation like we had last year was a real roll of the dice, that while it worked out, certainly wasn't a prudent management decision.

JTS

 

[40yearfan]

Sure but you do realize what restructure normally means? It means extend the deal, with a new signing bonus, or shift around money so that the player gets more in a different year, usually in the form of a bonus.

THa'ts why I said borrow money, in essence to restructure you are borrowing money by removing it from this years cap and deferring it, usually in bonuses.

You can't just say hey Adrian this year we're cutting your cap figure by 1 million OK? You have to give the player incentive to do it.

My whole point Russ is the fact that the money is there if the FO decides to get more players. Some on here act as if our hands are tied and we couldn't get more players if we wanted them. That's not the case. The CAP space is there if we need it.

 

[40yearfan]

I'll believe it when I see it. First, I'll believe that we actually have the balls to quickly restructure so we can sign more talent when it actually happens. Next, I'll believe that we actually 'kept our powder dry' for the next FA period when the next FA period arrives and we don't simply rehash the same phrase for NEXT year. I'm tired of every year hearing that NEXT year we'll have plenty of cap space for FA. The sad thing is that people buy it every offseason.

So do you agree that this can be done or not? All I was saying is that it's possible to get more players if we so desire. I didn't say we would, only that it's possible.

 

[40yearfan]

uh, good GMs, especially with the ridiculous amount of cap room we had, are able to do both - the Niners and Pats are proof of that, both of them signing or trading for impact guys while also adding a lot of talent on top of that (and neither of them had near the cap room that we did).

it's not an either or scenario.

Uhhh, I think we should wait until the season begins before we crown the 49ers asses. As you have stated, the only thing that counts are wins. If the 49ers have another bad season, then maybe their offseason wasn't so great after all.

 

[40yearfan]

From where the talent level was in 2003 we could have run a poll on ASFN on who to draft and sign as FAs and vastly improved the talent.

We have to remember that the team lost a ton of talent from 1999-2002(we'll have to check with 40 to see how many years that was )

Through Free Agency, Injuries, age and poor attitudes we lost Simeon Rice, Jamir Miller,Andre Wadsworth, Eric Swann, Mark Smith,Aeneas Williams,David Boston,Frank Sanders, Thomas Jones, Larry Centers,Lomas Brown,Corey Chavous and Jake Plummer. All of those guys either were pro-bowl players, contributors to the 1998 playoff run or made solid contributions to other teams once they left.

By comparison look at the guys we've lost since 2003. LJ Shelton,LDavis and......????

The problem for the future imo is that we've seen the offense rebuilt but not the defense.

Agreed, but look at the progress we have made. At least one side of the ball has been addressed and that's more than what happened in the preceeding years.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Uhhh, I think we should wait until the season begins before we crown the 49ers asses. As you have stated, the only thing that counts are wins. If the 49ers have another bad season, then maybe their offseason wasn't so great after all.

40, nowhere did I "crown" the Niners - I merely pointed out that they were an example of a team that was able to both sign the high profile FA and middle-tiered guys, something that Hollywood implied isn't possible.

 

[Cheesebeef]

So do you agree that this can be done or not? All I was saying is that it's possible to get more players if we so desire. I didn't say we would, only that it's possible.

40, you do realize that the team can't just arbitrarily restructure deals, right? That the players have to agree to the restructuring? Thus, it's not like the Cards could just up and do whatever they desired - it takes two to tango.

bottom line - with the amount of cap room we had, there should have never been reason for the Cardinals to have to ask guys to restructure and I have no idea why LBer wasn't addressed at all. That one's a total headscratcher to me.

 

[40yearfan]

40, you do realize that the team can't just arbitrarily restructure deals, right? That the players have to agree to the restructuring? Thus, it's not like the Cards could just up and do whatever they desired - it takes two to tango.

bottom line - with the amount of cap room we had, there should have never been reason for the Cardinals to have to ask guys to restructure and I have no idea why LBer wasn't addressed at all. That one's a total headscratcher to me.

Cheese, my whole line of reasoning is that the cap money is there if we desire to go get it. I don't know of a player who wouldn't restructure their contract if it meant more money in their pockets.

 

[Russ Smith]

I've always thought that the famous press conference rant was due to Denny's knowing that he was going to be canned right after the camera lights went out. It's the "better to burn out, than to fade away" theory.

That he wasn't fired was either a management blunder or some kind of subtle revenge by the Owners (by forcing him to fade away).

I had the same concerns last year about the lame duck situation. That Matt weathered the storm is pure luck, IMHO. To place the QBOF in a situation like we had last year was a real roll of the dice, that while it worked out, certainly wasn't a prudent management decision.

JTS

My theory was Green didn't want to stand there and explain how he lost that game so he faked a blowup so he could walk out. But yours is just as plausible. Some sportswriter was comparing it to Tyson biting Holyfield's ear he realized he could not win the fight so rather than take his beating he decided to get DQ'd. Green knew there was no way to defend blowing that game so he got mad and left.

Either way it made for great tv.

I am glad we wound up with Whiz but yeah the Oakland and Green Bay games really had me nervous because Matt looked so bad in those games and you had to wonder if the whole circus around him was geting to him.

 

[Russ Smith]

My whole point Russ is the fact that the money is there if the FO decides to get more players. Some on here act as if our hands are tied and we couldn't get more players if we wanted them. That's not the case. The CAP space is there if we need it.

Yes, but there was even more capspace there if we'd just signed Johnson etc to a more normal contract.

The cap is going up again next year so it's unlikely there will be a lot of guys out there to spend our extra caproom on.

was it 2 years ago that Rod told us because the cap was higher than originally anticipated less players got cut and thus our plans changed?

You want to have caproom in a year when many don't, not in a year when everyone else will too, because far less players will actualy hit the market IMHO.

 

[Russ Smith]

Agreed, but look at the progress we have made. At least one side of the ball has been addressed and that's more than what happened in the preceeding years.

Definitely agree here, the offense is very close to being set for the next 3 years.

 

[Duckjake]

Definitely agree here, the offense is very close to being set for the next 3 years.

With most of the same guys they had last year. Before Ross got hurt they were starting 8 guys from 2006. Leinart,Edge,Q,Fitz,Pope,Ross,Latui,and Wells.
So what's the difference? Leinart's not a rookie, the FB is slowing down the opposing LBs, and it appears that Grimm is as good as advertised.

But since we've only seen Vanilla defenses I'll wait until the regular season to judge the new offensive line.

 

[Hollywood]

40, nowhere did I "crown" the Niners - I merely pointed out that they were an example of a team that was able to both sign the high profile FA and middle-tiered guys, something that Hollywood implied isn't possible.

Oh, its possible. But only for a year or two. And then you crash and burn for the next 3-4 years. And God help you if you pick up a bust or two because you will be sitting on those contracts untill they run out. So it IS possible....just not wise. IMO