Nurk thread

[Finito]

Trying to improve my attitude on Nurkic. So I have been watching everything I can on him. I understand highlights are selective and deceiving. This one below was helpful.

Looks like Nurk is willing to lower his shoulder and drive defenders back. We did not get that with DA. He is pretty skilled with layups and small moves around the basket. He has the euro step down and uses those long legs to move toward the hoop. He plays below the rim and more horizontally than vertically but surprises with some blocks occasionally. He will take that three-point shot and sets a pretty good pick. Not sure how his defense is overall.

The most encouraging thing I saw from him was his willingness to lower his shoulder and bump a defender toward the hoop when making his post moves. We have not had that bully type of play from a center in . . . well . . . ever.

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You think he’s a physical bully? Bruh lol

 

[BirdGangThing]

You think he’s a physical bully? Bruh lol

Did you happen to catch the very first post in this thread?

 

[Bufalay]

Ayton

Can't wait

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Your post inspired me to buy tickets. Gonna drive down from Seattle. Thanks.

 

[CardNots]

Trying to improve my attitude on Nurkic. So I have been watching everything I can on him. I understand highlights are selective and deceiving. This one below was helpful.

Looks like Nurk is willing to lower his shoulder and drive defenders back. We did not get that with DA. He is pretty skilled with layups and small moves around the basket. He has the euro step down and uses those long legs to move toward the hoop. He plays below the rim and more horizontally than vertically but surprises with some blocks occasionally. He will take that three-point shot and sets a pretty good pick. Not sure how his defense is overall.

The most encouraging thing I saw from him was his willingness to lower his shoulder and bump a defender toward the hoop when making his post moves. We have not had that bully type of play from a center in . . . well . . . ever.

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Can he make passes? If so that is huge.

 

[JCSunsfan]

You think he’s a physical bully? Bruh lol

Uh. Not exactly what I said. I said he will put his shoulder down in his post-up game and bump his way to the hoop. He did it often in the highlights against Ayton and others. Ayton did not do that. It's one bully type of move that we never saw from Ayton. One bully-type move does not necessarily make him a bully. I am still quite skeptical about Nurkic. I am just trying to find something to be encouraged about.

 

[Germz249]

Can't wait

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Portland will be DominAyton

 

[BirdGangThing]

.

Portland will be DominAyton

And Nurk will be wAyton

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I am just trying to find something to be encouraged about.

He's playing with much more talent than he's ever, and might be motivated by winning/change of scenery?

It's really not that hard to envision a world where you get Ayton like production out of Nurkic - I wanted them to get more for Ayton, but Nurkic (WHEN HEALTHY) is a credible starting C.

 

[Finito]

He's playing with much more talent than he's ever, and might be motivated by winning/change of scenery?

It's really not that hard to envision a world where you get Ayton like production out of Nurkic - I wanted them to get more for Ayton, but Nurkic (WHEN HEALTHY) is a credible starting C.

Oh it’s really hard. Bad Ayton is good Nurkic and we’re not even talking about the games missed.

There were so many players I wanted and Nurkic was nowhere close to the list

 

[Hoop Head]

Oh it’s really hard. Bad Ayton is good Nurkic and we’re not even talking about the games missed.

There were so many players I wanted and Nurkic was nowhere close to the list

Games missed? Is that game 6 vs Denver, an elimination game or how about when Ayton refused to check back in vs Dallas in 2022, also an elimination game? Ayton wasn't an iron man. He missed plenty of time as well and developed a habit of disappearing when games meant the most. Ayton played in 17 more games over the last 2 years. Not a huge difference when Nurkic was a healthy scratch for the final 10 games of this past season for Portland. That 17 games quickly turns in 7. So 4 more games a year, on average.

Just because you didn't want Nurkic has no bearing on the deal being made. Create a new narrative. The ones you've tried to push are weaker than Ayton in the post with a PG on him.

 

[Phrazbit]

Games missed? Is that game 6 vs Denver, an elimination game or how about when Ayton refused to check back in vs Dallas in 2022, also an elimination game? Ayton wasn't an iron man. He missed plenty of time as well and developed a habit of disappearing when games meant the most. Ayton played in 17 more games over the last 2 years. Not a huge difference when Nurkic was a healthy scratch for the final 10 games of this past season for Portland. That 17 games quickly turns in 7. So 4 more games a year, on average.

Just because you didn't want Nurkic has no bearing on the deal being made. Create a new narrative. The ones you've tried to push are weaker than Ayton in the post with a PG on him.

Ayton's attitude questions are obvious and if he really wanted out and was going to be a disengaged Ayton this season, then hey had no choice, but I think Ayton is dramatically better than Nurkic. He's healthier, even if marginally over the last 2 years he's been much healthier over the last several.

And even Ayton's softness in the post... Ayton, statistically, blows Nurkic away as a post player, the comparison isn't even close. Nurkic is no bruiser. He is a below the rim, away from the basket, big man... who isn't particularly good away from the rim anyway. Compared to Ayton, he is a better passer, but Ayton plays primarily close to the basket. Compare Nurkic to other centers who opperate away from the hoop and his passing is very underwhelming.

If Ayton had to go, so be it, but I think one of the top priorities next off season will be replacing Nurkic as we come to realize he is borderline starter material... when healthy, and he is often not healthy.

 

[Germz249]

.

And Nurk will be wAyton

This match up is creAyton some drama

 

[elindholm]

And even Ayton's softness in the post... Ayton, statistically, blows Nurkic away as a post player, the comparison isn't even close. Nurkic is no bruiser. He is a below the rim, away from the basket, big man... who isn't particularly good away from the rim anyway. Compared to Ayton, he is a better passer, but Ayton plays primarily close to the basket. Compare Nurkic to other centers who opperate away from the hoop and his passing is very underwhelming.

We must have been watching a different Ayton. Ayton's post game was terrible. Most of his points in the paint were after catching passes over the top in a pick-and-roll. If you simply gave him the ball close to the basket, his only reliable move was a fadeaway.

When you say that "statistically," Ayton is the much better post player, what statistics are you referring to?

I can't comment on Nurkic's post game, but there's no way it can be much worse than Ayton's.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Oh it’s really hard. Bad Ayton is good Nurkic and we’re not even talking about the games missed.

There were so many players I wanted and Nurkic was nowhere close to the list

Let me get this straight. The bad version of Ayton that is just going through the motions on both ends and doing very little that helps the team is just as good as the best version of Nurkic? Yeah I'm gonna call BS on that one.

Sure Ayton is on average the better player, but I will take a locked in Nurk over a complacent Ayton on this team.

 

[Proximo]

We must have been watching a different Ayton. Ayton's post game was terrible. Most of his points in the paint were after catching passes over the top in a pick-and-roll. If you simply gave him the ball close to the basket, his only reliable move was a fadeaway.

When you say that "statistically," Ayton is the much better post player, what statistics are you referring to?

I can't comment on Nurkic's post game, but there's no way it can be much worse than Ayton's.

Shooting percentage. Ayton is far deadlier around the basket.

Nurk only shoots like 60% within 3 feet of the basket which is actually terrible for a 7 footer.

Ayton's jump hook is awesome, he lacks the ability to get all the way to the rim and get people in foul trouble, but his finesse game inside of 10 feet is actually extreemly good. The biggest issue with Ayton in the post is how many turnovers happened trying to get it to him in position.

 

[Proximo]

Let me get this straight. The bad version of Ayton that is just going through the motions on both ends and doing very little that helps the team is just as good as the best version of Nurkic? Yeah I'm gonna call BS on that one.

Sure Ayton is on average the better player, but I will take a locked in Nurk over a complacent Ayton this team.

I have to agree bad Ayton is extremely bad and certainly worse then good Nurk.

Really they just are not very similar players

Ayton is much better at perimeter defense and interior offense and a better roller.

Nurkic is a much better passer and 3pt shooter.

Nurk is the worse player - but he might be a better fit for the offense we will run. It's the defensive side I am a lot more worried about.

 

[GatorAZ]

Different energy at the C spot:
.

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[BirdGangThing]

Different energy at the C spot:
.

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Some quality praise with just a hint of well placed shade

 

[elindholm]

Shooting percentage. Ayton is far deadlier around the basket.

Take away the lob catches and it's a much different story.

Nurk only shoots like 60% within 3 feet of the basket which is actually terrible for a 7 footer.

I agree that it sounds below average, but I haven't looked at the numbers.

Edit: You sold Nurkic a little short. He's at 61% for his career, which is low, but those numbers are weighed down by his first few seasons. Since coming to Portland, he's at 63%, and over the last two years, he's been at 65%.

Ayton's jump hook is awesome

I agree that it's his best offensive weapon.

he lacks the ability to get all the way to the rim and get people in foul trouble

Not really. He gets all the way to the rim pretty well. He lacks the strength, explosiveness, and attitude to finish.

The biggest issue with Ayton in the post is how many turnovers happened trying to get it to him in position.

Keep in mind that most of his minutes were alongside one of the greatest point guards of all time, who has had no trouble setting up dozens of other big men throughout his career. So who is more likely to be responsible for all of the turnovers?

The issue is that there are very few ways to get the ball to Ayton that make him any sort of threat. He catches it okay, but if it's not exactly what he thinks he can do something with, he gives it right back or fumbles it in panic. It's like a wide receiver who can't make the catch unless it hits him square in the numbers.

The margin of error for trying to make Ayton into a scorer is vanishingly small. That's why so many plays "run for him" resulted in turnovers, and why the team always had to go away from him late in games.

 

[Superbone]

Keep in mind that most of his minutes were alongside one of the greatest point guards of all time, who has had no trouble setting up dozens of other big men throughout his career. So who is more likely to be responsible for all of the turnovers?

This is a great point. Ayton always struggled when having to create his own offense. This will be interesting to watch in Portland.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

The issue is that there are very few ways to get the ball to Ayton that make him any sort of threat. He catches it okay, but if it's not exactly what he thinks he can do something with, he gives it right back or fumbles it in panic. It's like a wide receiver who can't make the catch unless it hits him square in the numbers.

The margin of error for trying to make Ayton into a scorer is vanishingly small. That's why so many plays "run for him" resulted in turnovers, and why the team always had to go away from him late in games.

Which is why even with his superior shooting percentage #'s, he was never a major part of the offense.

 

[Suns_fan69]

I feel like this is potentially beating a dead horse, but Ayton's biggest problem is between the ears. He HAS the skills and athleticism to be dominant, but not the will nor the attitude to follow up on it. So yes, at his theoretical best, Ayton can be a far better player than Nurk. The Suns are trading potential (which they've been waiting on for several years now) for fit/chemistry/consistency.

 

[Chaplin]

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Some good stuff from Book on Nurk.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Ayton's attitude questions are obvious and if he really wanted out and was going to be a disengaged Ayton this season, then hey had no choice, but I think Ayton is dramatically better than Nurkic. He's healthier, even if marginally over the last 2 years he's been much healthier over the last several.

And even Ayton's softness in the post... Ayton, statistically, blows Nurkic away as a post player, the comparison isn't even close. Nurkic is no bruiser. He is a below the rim, away from the basket, big man... who isn't particularly good away from the rim anyway. Compared to Ayton, he is a better passer, but Ayton plays primarily close to the basket. Compare Nurkic to other centers who opperate away from the hoop and his passing is very underwhelming.

If Ayton had to go, so be it, but I think one of the top priorities next off season will be replacing Nurkic as we come to realize he is borderline starter material... when healthy, and he is often not healthy.

OK. Stats. How about per36 for their careers.

Ayto--pts 19.6, tov 2.1, blk 1.2, ast 1.9, reb 12.2, ft .755%, fg .597%
Nurkic--18.3, 3.2, 1.7, 3.4, 12.8, .671, .502.

Aytons numbers are better, but not blow away numbers by any means. Ayton has better scoring percentage because of the players around him. He tended to get really easy scoring opportunities otherwise he passed out to someone else. However, his passes did not usually end up as an assist. Also, Ayton's scoring was going down, and would have gone down more this year with this roster.

Nurkic has averaged more blocks, more rebounds, and more assists. He also sets much better picks and made 43 of 119 three-point attempts last year--DA made 7 of 24.

I think the per36 numbers are a decent comparison here since they both have played starter minutes. To me, the big advantage DA has over Nurk is durability. It's not that I think Nurkic is all that great. I still think he is in the lower tier of starting centers in the NBA (as in the 20-30 range), but DA was not great either and seemed to be getting worse.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Shooting percentage. Ayton is far deadlier around the basket.

Nurk only shoots like 60% within 3 feet of the basket which is actually terrible for a 7 footer.

Ayton's jump hook is awesome, he lacks the ability to get all the way to the rim and get people in foul trouble, but his finesse game inside of 10 feet is actually extreemly good. The biggest issue with Ayton in the post is how many turnovers happened trying to get it to him in position.

I am convinced that the primary issue with Ayton being more efficient around the basket is the surrounding teammates. Ayton is still better, but the difference is not as great as it seems. And I am not a big Nurkic fan. I am just trying to be objective. Ayton scored a lot on OOps. Not sure Nurkic will. Nurk will draw some attention at the three-point line though and he sets much better screens.