Off season: Focus on offense

[TheCardFan]

You figure out Simmons by trading him.

Serious question - for what?

 

[Crimson Warrior]

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Beachum needs to fire his agent man. Holy moly. How is this guy only getting paid 2 million a year?

 

[DVontel]

Serious question - for what?

2nd rounder.

 

[juza76]

Beachum needs to fire his agent man. Holy moly. How is this guy only getting paid 2 million a year?

definitely he deserves more compare others salaries we have

I don't know how the pff rating are generated but our best lineman has 67, I don't mind if we add two pieces in the first three rounds
OG( Ikem Okwonu) OLB(David Ojabo) OT (Darian Kinnard)
My favourite free agents signing
Dj Clark + ogbah +foley Fatukasi

Resigning Kirk Ertz Conner

We will have an infusion of African names which is good and the exotic Fakutasi

 

[BritCard]

I agree to an extent.

My main two issues with Kyler are easily fixable.
1) 2nd/3rd and short - he needs to stop throwing those 30, 40, 50 yard sideline routes that are very low percentage. Make it easy on yourself and move the chains K1! Also why I think Ertz is our #1 priority FA on offense.

2) Get rid of the ball faster vs taking sacks. He needs to do a better job of seeing the pressure and finding a hot route or throwing it away.

Outside of Kyler - We HAVE to run the ball more/more effectively. Have to. You can point to the Colts game as a prime example of that plus all the missed FG's.
The Rams, 49ers, Chiefs, Bengals, etc can all run the ball effectively. Pick your poison. Let them run you to death or when you try and stop the run - they have weapons in the passing game to crush you as well. We need that balance.

I don't know if they might be a fringe opinion around here, I haven't heard it discussed much but...

I'd rather have Maxx Williams back at $3m per than Ertz back at more than $3m per.

Ertz isn't a good run blocker. Maxx is a very good run blocker and we saw that when given the chance he's good in the passing game too. Sure, he's not as good as Ertz in the pass game but personally for the amount of of usage we normally give TE's does it matter?

47 of Ertz targets came in the 5 games Nuk was out. Before that he had 37 in 7 games. At the rate Maxx was going before injury he would have had 820 yards. More than Ertz.

Maxx offers more all round ability than Ertz for less money.

 

[BritCard]

I mean I definitely could be wrong, and if you and Brit Card think Jones is on the same trajectory as Humphries, great, but it sure doesn't look like that to me. I hope I'm wrong, and that he comes out of TC camp this upcoming year, wins the RT job from Beachum, and capably anchors that position for us for the next ten years. That would be awesome.

I wouldn't go that far. I'm simply saying it's hard to tell. He wouldn't be the first tackle that was poor in their first 2 years and then turned it around.

 

[BritCard]

You figure out Simmons by trading him. You figure out Zaven by playing him at WILL.
I have a hard time the EDGE we draft won’t get playing time, especially with the void that Chandler will leave. Even under Vance.

Vance played Vallejo (and even Walker) over Zaven Collins.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit to see him play Kennard and Dimukeje over a high draft pick.

 

[juza76]

I don't know if they might be a fringe opinion around here, I haven't heard it discussed much but...

I'd rather have Maxx Williams back at $3m per than Ertz back at more than $3m per.

Ertz isn't a good run blocker. Maxx is a very good run blocker and we saw that when given the chance he's good in the passing game too. Sure, he's not as good as Ertz in the pass game but personally for the amount of of usage we normally give TE's.

47 of Ertz targets came in the 5 games Nuk was out. Before that he had 37 in 7 games. At the rate Maxx was going before injury he would have had 820 yards. More than Ertz.

Maxx offers more all round ability than Ertz for less money.

Maxx Williams have had a very serious injury, he will have a long recover more then what happened to gardeck

 

[juza76]

Vance played Vallejo (and even Walker) over Zaven Collins.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit to see him play Kennard and Dimukeje over a high draft pick.

We need someone to coach over Vance Joseph

 

[BritCard]

Maxx Williams have had a very serious injury, he will have a long recover more then what happened to gardeck

He was injured in week 5. He's been off crutches and walking unaided since mid November.

Gardeck was injured in Week 15 (10 weeks before Gardeck) as was active by week 4.

I'm confident Maxx is back by game 1.

 

[kerouac9]

Kyler played in a predominantly 2TE offense at OKU. Maybe he’s comfortable coming back to that.

If you think that Maxx Williams and Zach Ertz are anywhere near the same level of player… I dunno what to say.

 

[TheCardFan]

2nd rounder.

I just don't see how we do that then. I would rather keep him.

If we could get another player that is a starter/upgrade - I might be open to it.

I might be completely delusional but I still have hope for Simmons.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Then DC's figured him and the offense out

KM and KK didn't make any adjustments and looked lost

The question is why?

I don't think this is the case at all. If you watch, you'll see plenty of open receivers, so it's not like there weren't opportunities.

Murray just for some reason reverted back to the bad habits we saw earlier in his career:

1. Looking to often for the home run play instead of the higher percentage play.

2. Stepping up in the pocket when the outside rush is coming.

3. Trying to run when the outside contain had an angle to the sideline.

4. Not going through his progressions.

For all those critical of Kingsbury, I present the Seahawks game as evidence of what Im talking about. The Cardinals had a solid lead and Murray started making mistakes that ended drives. Took a bunch of self caused sacks in the second half. He played Skelton-like, Plummer-like.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Kyler played in a predominantly 2TE offense at OKU. Maybe he’s comfortable coming back to that.

If you think that Maxx Williams and Zach Ertz are anywhere near the same level of player… I dunno what to say.

Maybe go after Njoku and use a higher pick on a TE? Also bring in a reliable second tier FA TE as well?

Draft Linderbaum to play RG. Make Kyler comfortable and improve the ground game as well.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

He was. Massie gave up like a dozen sacks his first year. He was awful.

Oh I am not arguing massie wasn’t a mess early. But he also was thrown in as a starter as a rookie and flashed now and again - certainly a great deal more than jones. He was also starting for a 5-11 club so giving him that opportunity was part of growing pains. This is now a playoff team (at least that should be the expectation in year four of coach/QB#1 pick). And when Massie was that wreck they didn’t start him his second season they went out got Winston to start. Jones was a disaster in his second season after being given a redshirt season.

In 12 starts (853 snaps) jones had 10 penalties. Starting 16 games (1052 snaps) massie had 4 penalties. Jones-0.833 and massie 0.25 per game respectively. Or even worse: jones-0.012/snap and massie 0.004/snap. On a per snap basis jones was committing 3x’s the penalties.

I can’t locate sacks surrendered, or hurries allowed, or any type of win/loss run block rate for better comparisons.

I’m not saying jones can’t become a good player, I’m saying I think the scenarios are more different than you credit with this comp.

 

[BritCard]

I don't really buy this idea that there's pre figured out Kliff and post figured out Kliff. It's not like the offense is new, it's the same as last year. There's plenty of tape on it.

Did Green Bay, Tampa or the Rams make major mid season adjustments because they were "figured out"? I think not.

I'm not sure what the reason is. It could be several. But Kliff's teams always have a tendency to drop off.

Just following up on this. I wonder if it's not a case of being "figured out" and more that Kliff runs a smaller playbook? I guess it would equate to the same thing in practice but rather than teams figuring out what Kliff is going to do in certain situations by learning his tendencies maybe his scheme is so narrow in it's variety that it's easier for teams to see what is coming. I know other teams add new plays as the season goes on too, I wonder if Kliff does this?

 

[BritCard]

Kyler played in a predominantly 2TE offense at OKU. Maybe he’s comfortable coming back to that.

If you think that Maxx Williams and Zach Ertz are anywhere near the same level of player… I dunno what to say.

I didn't say they were the same level. I said I'd rather have Maxx Williams all round ability at TE for $3 than Ertz who is essentially a big receiver for anything more.

I'd rather have Nuk, Kirk, Moore, another outside receiver and Maxx than Ertz. Because our TE will always be the 3/4 receiving option and I'm not paying say $6m per for that.

 

[BritCard]

Maybe go after Njoku and use a higher pick on a TE? Also bring in a reliable second tier FA TE as well?

Draft Linderbaum to play RG. Make Kyler comfortable and improve the ground game as well.

I'd be amazed if Linderbaum is there at #23. The Eagles have three 1st round picks in the mid to late teens and just lost Brooks to retirement and Kelce is FA.

But if he was I'd run to the podium.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'd be amazed if Linderbaum is there at #23. The Eagles have three 1st round picks in the mid to late teens and just lost Brooks to retirement and Kelce is FA.

But if he was I'd run to the podium.

Same.

 

[football karma]

I don't really buy this idea that there's pre figured out Kliff and post figured out Kliff. It's not like the offense is new, it's the same as last year. There's plenty of tape on it.

i am not a believer in the "KK get figured out" theory

for it to be true:

1. Defensive coordinators somehow forget in the offseason everything they learned the year prior, and/or
2. Kliff only creates 10-12 games of new stuff in the offseason

both of those feel highly unlikely. Do teams figure out tendencies, etc -- yes, but thats a league wide thing.

Something else is going on

 

[Krangodnzr]

Oh I am not arguing massie wasn’t a mess early. But he also was thrown in as a starter as a rookie and flashed now and again - certainly a great deal more than jones. He was also starting for a 5-11 club so giving him that opportunity was part of growing pains. This is now a playoff team (at least that should be the expectation in year four of coach/QB#1 pick). And when Massie was that wreck they didn’t start him his second season they went out got Winston to start. Jones was a disaster in his second season after being given a redshirt season.

In 12 starts (853 snaps) jones had 10 penalties. Starting 16 games (1052 snaps) massie had 4 penalties. Jones-0.833 and massie 0.25 per game respectively. Or even worse: jones-0.012/snap and massie 0.004/snap. On a per snap basis jones was committing 3x’s the penalties.

I can’t locate sacks surrendered, or hurries allowed, or any type of win/loss run block rate for better comparisons.

I’m not saying jones can’t become a good player, I’m saying I think the scenarios are more different than you credit with this comp.

Oh I keep Jones on the bench for now. Kelvin Beacham Is a good player.

I'm looking at Jones more to be a player near the end of this contract. And I draft a guard fairly high to round out the offensive line.

I try to keep Max Garcia, Sean Harlow, and Josh Jones as backups. That's pretty solid depth.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I'd be amazed if Linderbaum is there at #23. The Eagles have three 1st round picks in the mid to late teens and just lost Brooks to retirement and Kelce is FA.

But if he was I'd run to the podium.

Kenyon Green should be considered as well.

I think the Cardinals need to do some self-examination. They need to realize that they need to do everything in their power to make Kyler Murray more effective. Even if that means taking a step back on defense, they need to go all in on the offensive side.

 

[kerouac9]

Maybe go after Njoku and use a higher pick on a TE? Also bring in a reliable second tier FA TE as well?

Draft Linderbaum to play RG. Make Kyler comfortable and improve the ground game as well.

Maybe? Is Njoku good? The Browns were so unhappy with him they signed Austin Hooper to a big deal (and elected not to play him, either). Maybe on a cheap deal.

I think that drafting TEs high is like one of the highest-risk propositions in the NFL. Like, is O.J. Howard good?

I didn't say they were the same level. I said I'd rather have Maxx Williams all round ability at TE for $3 than Ertz who is essentially a big receiver for anything more.

I'd rather have Nuk, Kirk, Moore, another outside receiver and Maxx than Ertz. Because our TE will always be the 3/4 receiving option and I'm not paying say $6m per for that.

Your second paragraph is a false choice. You're gonna have Nuk, Moore, and "another outside receiver" anyway. I'm not sure what value Kirk adds over average. That said, his advanced stats last season were great: 284 DYAR and 23.8% DVOA (both 9th). He's either going to be a huge value to someone or he's going to be a tremendous bust.

I actually think that if we're playing a lot more 21 personnel, Ertz could be the effective #2 passing target after Nuk (in this scenario Kirk is gone and we have a mid-tier veteran WR on the outside -- Zay Jones or Will Fuller) and you have a poor man's version of Hill/Kelce.

 

[BritCard]

Maybe? Is Njoku good? The Browns were so unhappy with him they signed Austin Hooper to a big deal (and elected not to play him, either). Maybe on a cheap deal.

I think that drafting TEs high is like one of the highest-risk propositions in the NFL. Like, is O.J. Howard good?



Your second paragraph is a false choice. You're gonna have Nuk, Moore, and "another outside receiver" anyway. I'm not sure what value Kirk adds over average. That said, his advanced stats last season were great: 284 DYAR and 23.8% DVOA (both 9th). He's either going to be a huge value to someone or he's going to be a tremendous bust.

I actually think that if we're playing a lot more 21 personnel, Ertz could be the effective #2 passing target after Nuk (in this scenario Kirk is gone and we have a mid-tier veteran WR on the outside -- Zay Jones or Will Fuller) and you have a poor man's version of Hill/Kelce.

I just don't get the Kirk hate round here. He's a good player who has been very poorly used generally while here.

I still think he has more to offer and only turned 25 a couple of months ago.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Maybe? Is Njoku good? The Browns were so unhappy with him they signed Austin Hooper to a big deal (and elected not to play him, either). Maybe on a cheap deal.

I think that drafting TEs high is like one of the highest-risk propositions in the NFL. Like, is O.J. Howard good?

I'm with you here to a degree. Njoku shouldn't cost a ton based on his current career arc.

Your second paragraph is a false choice. You're gonna have Nuk, Moore, and "another outside receiver" anyway. I'm not sure what value Kirk adds over average. That said, his advanced stats last season were great: 284 DYAR and 23.8% DVOA (both 9th). He's either going to be a huge value to someone or he's going to be a tremendous bust.

The problem with Kirk is that he has disappeared for entire stretches of every season, and his market cost is probably greater than anyone who has watched him consistently would be willing to pay. This is where analytics shouldn't be trusted over what our eyes tell us.