Off season: Focus on offense

[Chopper0080]

You figure out Simmons by trading him. You figure out Zaven by playing him at WILL.
I have a hard time the EDGE we draft won’t get playing time, especially with the void that Chandler will leave. Even under Vance.

You saying to trade Simmons is like me saying to trade for Sean Payton. Maybe it works in our brain but not likely to occur. So that plan has to include him in some way.

I find it interesting that you believe Collins is gong to beat out Tanner Vallejo at ILB.

The funniest part is that you can argue we have personnel best suited for a 4-3 vs 3-4.

 

[TheCardFan]

I just don't get the Kirk hate round here. He's a good player who has been very poorly used generally while here.

I still think he has more to offer and only turned 25 a couple of months ago.

I am not sure its hate - I certainly appreciate him as a player.

The problem is at best, he is a #3. We can't afford to pay a #3 12-13m/year.

 

[BritCard]

I am not sure its hate - I certainly appreciate him as a player.

The problem is at best, he is a #3. We can't afford to pay a #3 12-13m/year.

He's not a #3. Certainly not "at best".

As I said in another thread recently, he was the #4 ranked WR2 in the league this year. That is based on WR's that received the 2nd most targets on their team.

You would think the league was full of WR2's racking up 1200 yards a season the way some go on around here. He had like 50 yards less than Mike Evans.

 

[TheCardFan]

He's not a #3. Certainly not "at best".

You would think the league was full of WR2's racking up 1200 yards a season the way some go on around here. He had like 50 yards less than Mike Evans.

You are comparing him to Mike Evans? I would rather have the 16 td's.

982 yards and 5 TD's is easy to replace at WR. Amon St. Brown who was a 4th rd rookie was as good as year 4 Kirk.

 

[GoldGloveschmidt]

If you are evaluating Josh Jones going forward then grade him on his brief performance at right tackle. He's not a guard and he struggled at guard. He may play out his whole rookie contract blocked by Kelvin Beacham, who has been a fine player.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I agree to an extent.

My main two issues with Kyler are easily fixable.
1) 2nd/3rd and short - he needs to stop throwing those 30, 40, 50 yard sideline routes that are very low percentage. Make it easy on yourself and move the chains K1! Also why I think Ertz is our #1 priority FA on offense.

2) Get rid of the ball faster vs taking sacks. He needs to do a better job of seeing the pressure and finding a hot route or throwing it away.

Outside of Kyler - We HAVE to run the ball more/more effectively. Have to. You can point to the Colts game as a prime example of that plus all the missed FG's.
The Rams, 49ers, Chiefs, Bengals, etc can all run the ball effectively. Pick your poison. Let them run you to death or when you try and stop the run - they have weapons in the passing game to crush you as well. We need that balance.

No he doesn't. It opens up the entire field when he goes for it, with a great deal of success I might add. His success rate on those throws has to be above 50%.

 

[BritCard]

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[BritCard]

You are comparing him to Mike Evans? I would rather have the 16 td's.

982 yards and 5 TD's is easy to replace at WR. Amon St. Brown who was a 4th rd rookie was as good as year 4 Kirk.

St Brown was WR1 in Detroit. They had very little else. And still only had 3 YPG more than rookie Kirk with McCoy and Rosen.

 

[TheCardFan]

No he doesn't. It opens up the entire field when he goes for it, with a great deal of success I might add. His success rate on those throws has to be above 50%.

I should have not said 2nd and short as I agree that is helpful.

3rd and short - I feel like those are drive killers. I would love to see the stats.

 

[TheCardFan]

St Brown was WR1 in Detroit. They had very little else. And still only had 3 YPG more than rookie Kirk with McCoy and Rosen.

As a rookie - ASB is getting paid about 1m/year for basically the same production as Kirk who will get paid 12-13m/year. That is the problem.

I am not sure I understand your 2nd argument.
Kirk with Rosen had 590 yards and 3td's as a rookie.
ASB had 912 yards and 5td's as a rookie.

 

[kerouac9]

He's not a #3. Certainly not "at best".

As I said in another thread recently, he was the #4 ranked WR2 in the league this year. That is based on WR's that received the 2nd most targets on their team.

You would think the league was full of WR2's racking up 1200 yards a season the way some go on around here. He had like 50 yards less than Mike Evans.

Maybe, but after DHop went down Kirk had an opportunity to make a statement about his value and he came up woefully short.

He can be the second option in a good passing game, but he can't play outside and be effective. I think we've learned that pretty extensively.

We should be hoping that we get a really good comp pick for him. Leave for big money and do great, Christian.

 

[Stout]

I should have not said 2nd and short as I agree that is helpful.

3rd and short - I feel like those are drive killers. I would love to see the stats.

Those are drive killers on 3rd and short. For every big play (that don't always result in TDs or FGs at drive's end) you miss 7 or 8 easy first downs.

 

[BritCard]

He can be the second option in a good passing game, but he can't play outside and be effective. I think we've learned that pretty extensively.

So literally a WR2? A whole bunch of WR2s don't play outside. Including JuJu and Cedrick Wilson who people have advocated for.

This team will be worse next year without Kirk.

 

[kerouac9]

So literally a WR2? A whole bunch of WR2s don't play outside. Including JuJu and Cedrick Wilson who people have advocated for.

This team will be worse next year without Kirk.

JuJu was playing more than 90% of snaps in Pittsburgh before his injury; was Pittsburgh really playing that much 3WR sets? I doubt it. In 2020 he was playing over 80% of snaps and Claypool and Johnson were playing about 60%.

I dunno. I don't think that Rondale Moore is going to do much less with the touches that Kirk would get.

 

[BritCard]

JuJu was playing more than 90% of snaps in Pittsburgh before his injury; was Pittsburgh really playing that much 3WR sets? I doubt it. In 2020 he was playing over 80% of snaps and Claypool and Johnson were playing about 60%.

I dunno. I don't think that Rondale Moore is going to do much less with the touches that Kirk would get.

JuJu had more slot snaps than Kirk

 

[Yuma]

I want bug dudes to stop the run, and some OL to protect K1. It starts with the big nasties!!

 

[TheCardFan]

I dunno. I don't think that Rondale Moore is going to do much less with the touches that Kirk would get.

That would be great. I would like to see Rondale down the field more before I can get comfortable with that.

 

[Chopper0080]

So literally a WR2? A whole bunch of WR2s don't play outside. Including JuJu and Cedrick Wilson who people have advocated for.

This team will be worse next year without Kirk.

He is a #3 who can produce like a #2. The problem is that he forces you to play 3 WR sets to get him on the field and he has never shown the ability to be a fill-in #1 which most #2 can. No one is saying he isn't worth 6-8 mil but that is likely not what it is going to cost to keep him.

 

[BritCard]

He is a #3 who can produce like a #2. The problem is that he forces you to play 3 WR sets to get him on the field and he has never shown the ability to be a fill-in #1 which most #2 can. No one is saying he isn't worth 6-8 mil but that is likely not what it is going to cost to keep him.

Kirk could play outside, if they had him do something more that run 10 yard comebacks and out routes to the sticks with the occasional post thrown in. We saw similar with Green this year.

I think when Kliff draws up his plays he forgets he had a Z receiver and at the end just thinks "Screw it, He can just run a 10 yard comeback in isolation from everything else".

Is Kirk ever going to be a great WR1? No, but he's a good WR2 who knows this system inside and out. I simply don't buy the idea that someone is going to come in and produce more.

 

[Chopper0080]

Kirk could play outside, if they had him do something more that run 10 yard comebacks and out routes to the sticks with the occasional post thrown in. We saw similar with Green this year.

I think when Kliff draws up his plays he forgets he had a Z receiver and at the end just thinks "Screw it, He can just run a 10 yard comeback in isolation from everything else".

Is Kirk ever going to be a great WR1? No, but he's a good WR2 who knows this system inside and out. I simply don't buy the idea that someone is going to come in and produce more.

Ok. That doesn't change the fact that Kirk can't do that. He has shown he can't do that. If that is what they ask him the outside WRs (your assertion) then Kirk cannot play outside.

 

[BritCard]

Ok. That doesn't change the fact that Kirk can't do that. He has shown he can't do that. If that is what they ask him the outside WRs (your assertion) then Kirk cannot play outside.

I've done several film breakdowns in the past where Kirk has been open outside and Kyler's deficiencies in Reading defences and going through his reads has meant he's missed him.

Kirk is going to go elsewhere and look like a different player (depending where he lands)

 

[Chopper0080]

I've done several film breakdowns in the past where Kirk has been open outside and Kyler's deficiencies in Reading defences and going through his reads has meant he's missed him.

Kirk is going to go elsewhere and look like a different player (depending where he lands)

Which would tell us more of what we need to know about Murray but that doesn't change that Murray, Kliff, and our scheme doesn't fit with Kirk being paid 10+mil as a WR2.

It is similar to my beliefs with Isaiah Simmons. I think he is being held back but until he shows he can do more somewhere else, all I have is my belief that it is the case.

 

[BritCard]

Which would tell us more of what we need to know about Murray but that doesn't change that Murray, Kliff, and our scheme doesn't fit with Kirk being paid 10+mil as a WR2.

It is similar to my beliefs with Isaiah Simmons. I think he is being held back but until he shows he can do more somewhere else, all I have is my belief that it is the case.

I don't agree with that either. A 1000 yard receiver is worth $12m.

 

[GoldGloveschmidt]

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Yeah, if Kirk just had a better QB he'd be able to catch perfectly played balls and not drop them.

I think he'll take a significant step back if he plays elsewhere. Definitely won't come close to 1,000 yards on another team.

 

[Harry]

I mean I definitely could be wrong, and if you and Brit Card think Jones is on the same trajectory as Humphries, great, but it sure doesn't look like that to me. I hope I'm wrong, and that he comes out of TC camp this upcoming year, wins the RT job from Beachum, and capably anchors that position for us for the next ten years. That would be awesome.

I think they will chance Jones at RG. If I’m right they cut Pugh, they can’t afford 2 FA guards. They probably take a late round OL, but he’ll be a project.