Off-season strength program

[jw7]

I looked but didn't see anyone else comment on this (apologies if its been discussed)...

On Jurecki's show, they mentioned how a lot of the players don't like Roguski's (sp?) weight program because he focuses on technique with lower weights rather than power-lifting. I'm not a gym-rat so I have no idea of the difference...but supposedly Emmitt commented that it was different than what he was used to.

I'm wondering if this is the right direction, considering the # of injuries and the year-after-year failure to dominate one side of the trenches.

Then again I don't know jack about this so I'd like to hear what people think.

 

[jmr667]

There are generally considered two methods of weight lifting. One method is often thought to build for "strength" which is the method the Cards guy is using. You use relatively light weights and focus on form. Its supposed to be great for endurance and minimizes injury while building the slow twitch muscle fibers. Highly recommended for male gymnastics and such.
The other method is more commonly thought to build "power". The idea is to move the weights rapidly through the range of motion. This method is supposed to build the fast twitch muscle fibers that are required for explosive force and sprinting.

Personally, I'd say most of the activities required by football players require the fast twitch muscle fibers (sprinting, hitting, tackling, etc.) so the large weights rapidly lifted would seem to be better. But I'm not a professional, and the book I read about it when I started lifting was written in the 80's. Who knows what has been discovered since then.

Of course, we only got a brief description about the program from a newspaper quote by Emmitt. He's been training at a professional level for a long time. If he thinks it might be worth trying I'd be inclined to go along with him.

 

[azwulf]

You are right about the fast and slow twitching fibres. As much as I remember from a lecture I received on this topic this describes it well. But I also remember that the fast twitching muscles are not or at least very hard to grow. Apparently you have or you don't have a certain amount and I believe you can't grown them (I'm not absolutly sure though).
When I train people (different sport) the main focus is on fast and explosive movements and I found that weightlifting is not a big helper. The best way to do it is actually perform a movement you want to have more explosive with extra loads (lead vest, ankle weights). The coordination of the rapid firing of muscle fibres is one of the most important part of rapid movement. You rarley need the curl movement on the football field.
An interesting detail is the strength of joints and ligaments. I never thought of that but it makes sense that slower lifting helps the development of these more.
I think the bottom line is that you need both forms of training. It's how you combine them is what makes it more or less benificial.

 

[Wildman©]

It has been my experience that weights should be lowered slowly (controlled) but lifted quickly (to develop explosiveness). It sounds (to me) like the Cards program stresses lowering AND lifting slowly in a very controlled manner. I do not see how this method will develop the explosiveness needed in FOOTBALL.

In a nutshell, my former players and I used medium to moderately heavy weights 80-90 percent of the time. We would warm up and work up to a burnout weight. We defined burnout weight as an amount that an individual could lift at least 5 times (5 - 20 rep range). We seldom (once every 90 days to 2 months) attempted a one rep maximum lift as I felt that type of lifting would stress the joints. As a player's burnout number with a particular weight increased (for example 185 lbs x 8 increased to 185 X 14 over the course of several weeks), we would increase the burnout weight (in this example to maybe 200 or 225 lbs) and start the cycle over.

BTW, we started lifting in this manner after a season where we had a very strong player injure his shoulder. I used this method to rehab this player. While our progress seemed slow at first (as it should have been as we were trying to heal this player), by April we had passed the die hard heavy lifters by a huge margin. The "formally injured" player could bench well in excess of 400 lbs and incline press in the mid 300s. Both of these amounts supassed this player's previous bests by 50-60 lbs... and we NEVER lifted a weight heavier than 275 lbs in the bench and 240 lbs in the incline press: the great majority of the time we used burnout weights of 185, 200 & 225 in the bench and 185 & 200 in the incline. I performed my first 400 lb BP using this workout method!

 

[RugbyMuffin]

The whole story!?!

First of all, the posts above are accurate and true. Very good information up there. I have play 2 types of physical and injury prone sports.
Controlled lifting, what the Cardinals seem to be doing right now, is GREAT for preventing injury. Slow controled lift at mid-range wieght is good for your ligaments, and strengthens them against tears, or pulls. I just really hope that they are stretching well while doing this too or it will have adverse effects, and make the player too tight.
I think for right now this is the way that the player should be lifting. When the season comes they should do lower wieghts with explosions going up and slow movement going down. This does make you more explosive. At least it did for me. Really allows you to de-cleat people. While I played rugby I ALWAYS lifted like this cause it keeps wieght off, and is the equilavlent to making about 100 tackles in a day.
For offseason stuff (before minicamp) guys should do football exercises. Power squats, power cleans, etc. This will pack on the wieght, and muscle. It doesn't matter in the offseason if they add about 10 lbs, and loose a little flexibility. Cause they don't need it here they should just focus on building muscle.
But as lifting goes it is different for everybody this is just my input. By the way since I am now in the real world I usually do a pyramid lift 10-8-6 while going up in wieght. I lift 3 times a week, and do my entire body. I also run 4 times a week, and it keeps me in pretty good shape.

 

[JeffGollin]

It sounds (to me) like the Cards program stresses lowering AND lifting slowly in a very controlled manner. I do not see how this method will develop the explosiveness needed in FOOTBALL.
One characteristic of the Cards since Buddy, in my opinion, has been lack of "pop" - blocking, tackling and shedding.

Maybe Roguski's method is why.

This isn't the first I've heard of this problem, but I'm glad it's making its way to the forefront of discussion. For 3 or 4 years, a fellow Cardinal rooter - an ex HS football coach from Wisconsin - has writing me flaming letters expressing his criticisim of Cardinal strength and conditioning methods.

 

[Wildman©]

Bump

I would be interested to hear more about this topic.

 

[cards 24-7-365]

I have an extensive backgroung in strength and conditioning. First of all, I believe it is important to train the way you are going to play. Football is an explosive sport, train explosively. Second of all, it is impossible to "strengthen" ligaments. Ligaments are non-contractile tissue which have very little elasticity. Ligaments, once injured can only heal by scarring and will never regain their original state (this is why surgeons reconstruct torn ligaments).

I feel that this type of strength and conditioining program exists because some strength coaches do not want athletes getting injured while lifting weights. This method is a very safe, low risk method of training (Some view olyimpic lifting and other power lifting techniques as unsafe and difficult to teach and master). Also, as Wildman said, it is a excellent method for buidling muscle mass. With the slow methodical method, the muscle ends up being under tension for a long period of time which recruits more motor units which results in increased muscle mass. This is why a body builder uses similar thehniques.

The question is how explosive is that athlete? I just got back from a strength and conditioning conference where a guy spoke about olympic lifting (power cleans, snatches, clean and jerk) and he claimed that the olympic lifters have the highest verticle jumps of any athletes that enter the olympics. The verticle jump measurement is the gold standard for measuring total body explosiveness. I would argue that training this way may set an athlete up for injury once they begin playing on the field because the game is not slow and controlled. The player may look like a body builder (have you ever seen those guys move) but can not move with the velocity and power necessary to play football.

 

[Jim O]

I am not saying that anyone is wrong or right in this matter, but to be fair, many of the injuries last season had nothing to do with weight training. Jenkins broken scapula, Gilmore's broken leg, Wilson's shoulder, Fina's ankle, Kendall's ankle, Shelton's ankle, Boston's foot, TJ's ankle, Sanders foot, etc...etc...

All of the injuries listed above had to do with taking a direct hit, thump, twist and so on. Weight training will not stop you from getting caught under a pile, a scapula fracture like Martay's or a broken leg like Gilmore's.

The only injuries off the top of my head that were muscular in nature were Starks' groin and Barrett's hip flexor however I am sure that there were more than that.

I had the opportunity to train with Bob Rogucki throughout my high school and college baseball days. It is a deliberate system that is customized for the particular athlete.

Basically, Captian Bob's system involves lifting a determined weight to complete exhaustion within 12-15 reps. During the first four reps, he would have me do a four-count up and a four-count down. At the fifth rep through the finish, you would powerfully thrust the weight up but maintain the four count down. Affter the set, Bob and I would determine whether to increase the weight by 3, 5, or 7 lbs depending on how the set went.

This method prevents people from cheating themselves out on a lift. In the case of the bench press, you always see people "bouncing" weight off their chests. That is cheating according to many including me.

I saw tremendous gains in strength and endurance while in the program. I was a catcher and I had not one injury in my high school and college career. When I lifted with Bob, I got much stronger, and actually improved my flexibilty at the same time.

Let me know if you hava any specific questions about the program.

 

[Lomax to Green 84]

I agree that explosive training should be the way to go if you want explosive athletes. I read an article by the former University of Tennessee strength coach (now works for Bigger/Faster/Stronger) and he said that often times his shot putters and discus throwers had exceptional vertical jumps because of all of the explosive exercises they performed (Squats and Power Cleans specifically).

Eight years ago I devoted an entire summer to a workout program using only the 4 power type lifts (Squat, Deadlift, Bench, Power Clean) and I was absolutely amazed at the results. I went from a 175 pounder with a 25 inch vertical jump to a 195 pounder with a 32 inch vertical jump and made the improvements in about 3 months.

Not one of these lifts if done with correct technique will result in injury. The only time someone gets injured from these power movements is if they turn into "ego" contests to see who can do the most for a single repetition.

 

[cards 24-7-365]

I agree Jim, no strength and conditioning program in the world will prevent those injuries. A good strength and conitioning program can recduce the number of injuries like low back injuries, muscle strains / tears (AC's triceps tendon) and non-contact ACL injuries. Rogucki's program increases the muscle's Time Under Tension (TUT) and any time that is done you can certainly increase muscle mass and strength. However, to increase power, the research says you must lift heavier loads 90-100% of your 1 rep max (RM), or you must lift a load which is about 30% of your 1RM as fast as you can - power cleans, etc.

The other thing that may "train" people to get hurt is an over use of machines. Any time you sit or lie against a support and move weight, you do not have to engage your "core" muscles (low back, abs and hips). In athletics, any time you move or change direction or engage with an offensive linemen there is a tremendous amount of force that will be put on the core muscles. So sitting in a machine will not transfer to a football field as much as maybe throwing medicine balls, doing plyometrics, power cleans more football specific exercises. Again, I do not know how much Rogucki uses machines or if and how much he uses plyometric training or agility / speed training but based on the performance on the field (not necessarily the injuries because many are freak in nature) you have to evaluate at the strength and conditioning program.

By the way Jim did you (or a brother) used to work for the gym / weight equipment comapany Samson? I think I may have met you (or a brother)at a NSCA show? I don't remember the name I just remember that the guy said his dad was the ATC for the Cards.

 

[kerouac9]

Don't forget A.C.'s biceps/triceps/shoulder, Tommy Knight's history of muscle strains, etc.

 

[AZ1766]

Great information from all..... thank you all and thanks Jim Skane.
A great board with knowledgable people to include people from the organization, that are fans and don't mind talking with us.... thats just super!
Again thanks, folks!

 

[Jim O]

Originally posted by cards 24-7-365
By the way Jim did you (or a brother) used to work for the gym / weight equipment comapany Samson? I think I may have met you (or a brother)at a NSCA show? I don't remember the name I just remember that the guy said his dad was the ATC for the Cards.

That was my brother, John Jr. He played baseball at New Mexico State in Las Cruces and then stayed down there for his MBA. He worked at Samson in Cruces for a few years. He is now back in the Phx area. I remember him going to conferences in Nashville, Orlando, Anaheim, among other places.

 

[Jim O]

Originally posted by cards 24-7-365
A good strength and conitioning program can recduce the number of injuries like low back injuries, muscle strains / tears (AC's triceps tendon) and non-contact ACL injuries.

Just so folks know, Anthony Clement did not work out here in the offseason in years past. AC has been working out here this offseason though.

 

[JeffGollin]

I'm out of my league on this topic. But I'm glad there's a lot of technical discussion here, because if we're going to put together a winning program, nothing is sacred - from the pasta in the dining hall to the training regimen to the physical and mental make-ups of the players we're interested in to the way the operators answer the phone.

When there are more injuries than other teams get or less than satisfactory rehabs, questions should be asked continually - not to place blame but to make the right decisions and do things in the optimal way.

 

[cards 24-7-365]

I met him in Anaheim. His booth was next to the World's Stronget Man - that tall blonde guy (I forget his name) that almost rivals L. Davis's size

 

[Jim O]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Don't forget A.C.'s biceps/triceps/shoulder, Tommy Knight's history of muscle strains, etc.

AC did not work out here in the offseason until 2003 and Tommy Knight can't stay healthy anywhere he goes...NE, Baltimore etc...

 

[Jim O]

Originally posted by cards 24-7-365
I met him in Anaheim. His booth was next to the World's Stronget Man - that tall blonde guy (I forget his name) that almost rivals L. Davis's size

Well, usually the World's strongest man is named Magnus or something like that. All of those dudes on ESPN that race with refrigerators on thier backs are named Magnus it seems!

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Jim Omohundro
Well, usually the World's strongest man is named Magnus or something like that. All of those dudes on ESPN that race with refrigerators on thier backs are named Magnus it seems!

There's a chic on the World's Strongest Female one that looks exactly like Joel Mackovika. Swear to god.

 

[Jim O]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
There's a chic on the World's Strongest Female one that looks exactly like Joel Mackovika. Swear to god.

Magnessa Magnusson Makovicka. It has a nice ring to it.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Jim Omohundro
Magnessa Magnusson Makovicka. It has a nice ring to it.

I'm looking for a picture. You'll laugh yer ass off. She's a ringer.

 

[jw7]

Originally posted by Jim Omohundro
Jim's Post

Yes, I was out of line mentioning injuries wrt the weight program in my original post- I agree, you can't weight-train an ankle or ligament.

I'm just more intersted in "explosiveness" vs. "strength" argument since I know very little about the subject.

 

[Jim O]

Originally posted by jw7
Yes, I was out of line mentioning injuries wrt the weight program in my original post- I agree, you can't weight-train an ankle or ligament.

I'm just more intersted in "explosiveness" vs. "strength" argument since I know very little about the subject.

The explosive movements in Rogucki's program come in reps five through 15. It is in the first four reps where it is a deliberate four-count up and four-count down style. And of course, the progam is modified for different athletes.

 

[jf-08]

Originally posted by cards 24-7-365
. However, to increase power, the research says you must lift heavier loads 90-100% of your 1 rep max (RM), or you must lift a load which is about 30% of your 1RM as fast as you can - power cleans, etc.

I train by doing "Static Contraction." What this is is lifting a heavy weight in your strongest range of motion. Basically you lift probably a max of 6 inches but hold for a time period. I do 1 lift, rest 45 seconds then do another. Each lift is preceded by a warm up lift of about 1/2 the weight @ about 15 seconds to get blood going to the muscles.


Each lift is 1 lift, rest 45 seconds then do 1 more lift. Your range of motion is basiclly at the extended lifting range. ie bench - at the top of the range, leg press - top of range, etc.


1 day / week (Saturday)

Sitting Shoulder Press: 250 lbs @ 20 second hold

Shrug: 330 # @ 12 sec

Tricep Dip Machine - 330 x 10 quick reps, then 15 second hold, rest 45 seconds, repeat.

Bicep Curl: 205 # @ 12 seconds

Abs Crunch Machine : 20 reps @ machine max plus 15 second hold, rest 45 seconds, repeat

Forearm curl : 110 # @ 20 seconds

Reverse forearm: 110 # @ 15 seconds.

The following Saturday I do the following:

Low Back Deadlift: 330 # @ 10 seconds

Bench Press: 280 # @ 10 seconds

Upper Back Row - 340 # @ 10 seconds

Quad Leg Press: - 800 # @ 15 sec

Hammies Curl : 280 # @ 20 sec

Donkey Calf Press: 330 # @ 30 seconds.

Then the following Sat, I do workout #1 by either : increasing weight or time.

This program works for me, I have lost over 55 pounds and strenght has skyrocketed. If anyone wants more specifics about this program, PM me & I'll get some info for you.