Official 2013 Draft Thread

[JCSunsfan]

I am not sure about motor problems. New country, language, playing style, coach that just wants him to play d, bad guard play-all those things could make almost any player tentative. You might end up being right but I would like to wait a while before I make my mind on that.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I am not sure about motor problems. New country, language, playing style, coach that just wants him to play d, bad guard play-all those things could make almost any player tentative. You might end up being right but I would like to wait a while before I make my mind on that.

man, that looks like a lot of excuses to defend a guy from himself. guess the proof will be in the pudding.

 

[SunsTzu]

that's fine, but it's not the type of defender we got, thus I don't see how it's relevant in the Noel v. Len discussion.

Then stop bringing it up. I only mentioned Chandler in my disagreement about Ratliff being a special defender. The entire point of which was you don't need high volume blocks to be a good defensive big man and just because a player gets a lot of blocks doesn't make them a good defender.

Bottomline I don't think Noel's defense has anywhere near the impact it is hyped to have despite his blocks/steals. Len may not be any better defensively, but only one of those 2 is being billed as a defensive specialist.

give me the guy who's overly aggressive as a freshman trying to make an impact over the low motor/less athletic guy any day of the week.

It doesn't matter how athletic or how high a motor someone has if they are out of position it hurts the defense. Not what you want from a defensive specialist.

i'll give you the coaching, but Len's skill set is only more refined on offense and yet, he still only averaged 1 ppg more then Noel.

Once you adjust for pace and minutes the gap widens. As you said earlier coach Cal gets the best recruits and basically lets them play. The structure limitations Len had at Maryland have been cited as a reason the Suns expect him to develop.

 

[SirStefan32]

Once you adjust for pace and minutes the gap widens. As you said earlier coach Cal gets the best recruits and basically lets them play. The structure limitations Len had at Maryland have been cited as a reason the Suns expect him to develop.

See, THAT is why I trust McD over my own opinion on Len- McD said as much- Maryland offense sucked for Len. He's been watching him for three years, and everything I've heard about McD points to the fact that notices that sort of thing- find potential in underutilized talent.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

no I don't. sure, he'll probably get better, but I just don't think his ceiling is all that high. especially considering the guy has motor problems, which is one thing you can't say about Noel.



that's fine, but it's not the type of defender we got, thus I don't see how it's relevant in the Noel v. Len discussion.



give me the guy who's overly aggressive as a freshman trying to make an impact over the low motor/less athletic guy any day of the week.



i'll give you the coaching, but Len's skill set is only more refined on offense and yet, he still only averaged 1 ppg more then Noel.

You lost me right there. The guy is 7'1" 255lbs who at times looks to have the speed and agility of a SF. He has a pretty good jump shot that he can extend all the way out to the top of the key. He has plenty of room to to add more muscle to his frame even though he isn't even currently too skinny. The one thing he really needs to improve on in the NBA is his BB IQ and it's hard to imagine that he won't do just that.

Now does that mean he will be better or even as good as Noel? Not sure and time will tell on that, but to say that Len's ceiling "isn't all that high" is a ridiculous statement to me.

 

[FutureSuperstar]

As someone who has watched Len a lot, he does not have motor problems. I don't know where this myth comes from - Can he play harder a bit? Perhaps - But it's not like that's a weakness, you can maybe say he doesn't have the motor of Noel, but very few players do - And that mainly has to do with Noel's athleticism, not Len's fault he can't jump out of the gym and be overly-aggressive at every opportunity ...

Len is also not soft - People simply say that because he is white ... Most of the time he attempts to make strong moves to the basket like every other center ... Did he settle for jumpers a few times when he shouldn't have - Sure, but that's an experience issue, not a toughness issue (Have you guys seen guys like Duncan, Gasol, and Hibbert play - All those guys settle for jumpers at times when they should instead go to the basket)

 

[FutureSuperstar]

He's MILES behind Noel, who not only rebounds much better, but can can stat on the court, while DOUBLING the amount of blocks/steals per game.

Say whatever u want about Noel's offense compared to Len, but there is simply no comparison whatsoever between Len's 7.8 rebound, 2 blocks and ZERO steals vs. 9.5 rebounds, 4.4 blocks and 2 steals per game.

Len will be a better NBA defender than Noel ... Noel was a better college defender because he didn't have to do with size issues - The NBA is totally different and we saw that last year - When Len was matched up with NBA size / talent, he defended very well

Noel is a better shot-blocker than Len , that's not that big of a deal (Noel also played more minutes, so stats are skewed) ... But he is not a better 1-0n-1 defender at all ...

Noel and Len also averaged the same rebounds / minute last year (Maryland was Top 5 in the nation in rebounding too), so to say Noel is a better rebounder than Len is just not true ... And being taller, Len's rebounding from college is more likely to translate to the NBA too

And I don't know why people are valuing steals so much - A big mans job is to keep him man from stealing, not steal the ball - Len was a very disciplined defender last year and did not go for steals much (which 7-1 center does?) ... Again, Maryland was Very Good defensively last year, so Len's lack of steal is meaningless - The goal is to keep the other team from scoring, not to get steals

 

[SunsTzu]

Noel and Len also averaged the same rebounds / minute last year (Maryland was Top 5 in the nation in rebounding too), so to say Noel is a better rebounder than Len is just not true ... And being taller, Len's rebounding from college is more likely to translate to the NBA too

I like Len's rebounding better than Noel's. Noel relies heavily on quickness and leaping ability(which he has no shortage of) to get balls but he isn't as good at keeping opposing bigs off the glass. Len is actually the better offensive rebounder which I think is a better gauge of rebounding ability.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You lost me right there. The guy is 7'1" 255lbs who at times looks to have the speed and agility of a SF.me.

Well, you lost me right here. At times he had the speed and agility of a SF?! are you watching stuff in fast forward? come on.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I like Len's rebounding better than Noel's. Noel relies heavily on quickness and leaping ability(which he has no shortage of) to get balls but he isn't as good at keeping opposing bigs off the glass. Len is actually the better offensive rebounder which I think is a better gauge of rebounding ability.

And yet despite the fact that he's older and bigger, Noel averaged 10 per versus Len's 8. I'm sure you'll throw some advanced stats out there that proves if Len could stay on the floor as long as Noel, they rebound at the same rate. But advanced/per stats Show what COULD be. Actual production shows what IS.

 

[SunsTzu]

And yet despite the fact that he's older and bigger, Noel averaged 10 per versus Len's 8. I'm sure you'll throw some advanced stats out there that proves if Len could stay on the floor as long as Noel, they rebound at the same rate. But advanced/per stats Show what COULD be. Actual production shows what IS.

It's absurd not to put their production into context given their varying situations and competition, while also trying to project how each player will transition to the NBA. But if you really want to talk about a players ability to stay on the court then Len played 14 more games and 239 more minutes.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Well, you lost me right here. At times he had the speed and agility of a SF?! are you watching stuff in fast forward? come on.

Are you watching it in slow motion?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Are you watching it in slow motion?

I'm sorry man, but saying he's played at the same speed/agility at times as pretty much the quickest front court position in the NBA, the likes of which is played by Durant, Paul George, Gallinari, Josh Smith, Deng, Gay, Kirilenko, Parsons, Butler, Leonard etc. is completely baseless in fact.

you do realize those guys are SF and that's the group of people you've said Len's showed similar speed and agility to at times, right?

I mean...do you have a shred of proof of this type of speed/agility?

 

[Cheesebeef]

It's absurd not to put their production into context given their varying situations and competition, while also trying to project how each player will transition to the NBA. But if you really want to talk about a players ability to stay on the court then Len played 14 more games and 239 more minutes.

should we compare to the impact each guy made on his team? Len, who played the entire season on a terribly mediocre Maryland team, unable to elevate them to a .500 record.

Then, we have Noel, who had was leading Kentucky to a 17-6 record until his injury only see them completely fall apart and go 4-6 after his injury.

Y'all make it out to be like Noel played on an All-Star with Kentucky, but truth is, their guard play was pretty awful this year also and that team completely collapsed after Noel got injured.

 

[SunsTzu]

should we compare to the impact each guy made on his team? Len, who played the entire season on a terribly mediocre Maryland team, unable to elevate them to a .500 record.

Then, we have Noel, who had was leading Kentucky to a 17-6 record until his injury only see them completely fall apart and go 4-6 after his injury.

Y'all make it out to be like Noel played on an All-Star with Kentucky, but truth is, their guard play was pretty awful this year also and that team completely collapsed after Noel got injured.

How many guys from last year's Maryland team are going to make it to the NBA? How about Kentucky's? Unfortunately for Len he played every game even with an injured ankle so we can't see how bad a team the Terrapins would have been without him.

But if the Suns do move to the Pac-12 then I can see an argument for wanting Noel.

 

[Cheesebeef]

How many guys from last year's Maryland team are going to make it to the NBA? How about Kentucky's? Unfortunately for Len he played every game even with an injured ankle so we can't see how bad a team the Terrapins would have been without him.

But if the Suns do move to the Pac-12 then I can see an argument for wanting Noel.

wow...so, now you're writing off Noel as even being an NBA player...and he can only be effective in the Pac-12.

I'm not even saying Len's going to be terrible. I think he can be okay. But the above suggests that Noel has no business even being in the NBA. That's ridiculous.

 

[FutureSuperstar]

should we compare to the impact each guy made on his team? Len, who played the entire season on a terribly mediocre Maryland team, unable to elevate them to a .500 record.

Then, we have Noel, who had was leading Kentucky to a 17-6 record until his injury only see them completely fall apart and go 4-6 after his injury.

Y'all make it out to be like Noel played on an All-Star with Kentucky, but truth is, their guard play was pretty awful this year also and that team completely collapsed after Noel got injured.

Ok now you're just making stuff up - Maryland was 25-13 last year and weren't as terrible as everybody is making them out to be ... They were just outside of the Tournament and got to the final 4 of the NIT ... Again though - All this is meaningless because the Suns did not draft Maryland, they drafted Alex Len

I also think you're severely underestimating Len's potential - I've heard you post many times how Noel is in better shape to improve as a Freshmen than Len who is a sophomore, and how Noel looked better than Len as Freshman and how that somehow means something ...

I could easily argue that Noel has more experience than Len (and thus less room to improve) despite being younger ... Before College, Noel played 4 years of High school Ball, AAU, etc. - He was much more prepared for his 1st year at Kentucky than Len who had to serve a 10 game suspension (all while being in a whole new country, not understanding English) and then being thrown into the fire during ACC Play under a 1st Year Head coach (and having to rely on the nation's biggest ballhog Terrell Stoglin to feed him the ball)

Len's Sophomore season was kind of his freshman season and I just find it really funny how 12-8-2 in 27 mpg is somehow considered underwhelming ... That is actually pretty good considering the circumstances Len has had to deal with and where he's come from just 2 years ago

 

[sunsfan88]

should we compare to the impact each guy made on his team? Len, who played the entire season on a terribly mediocre Maryland team, unable to elevate them to a .500 record.

Then, we have Noel, who had was leading Kentucky to a 17-6 record until his injury only see them completely fall apart and go 4-6 after his injury.

Y'all make it out to be like Noel played on an All-Star with Kentucky, but truth is, their guard play was pretty awful this year also and that team completely collapsed after Noel got injured.

Because the rest of the team sucked! Len isn't LeBron, Len can't carry a crappy team to contending levels. Neither can Noel.

A lot of your answers can be answered here bud

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f7/why-alex-len-is-a-better-prospect-than-noel-196649.html

 

[Cheesebeef]

Ok now you're just making stuff up - Maryland was 25-13 last year and weren't as terrible as everybody is making them out to be ...

you're right...I should have said terribly mediocre. EDIT: wait a second...that IS what I said and it's true. listing them at 25-13 is kinda ridiculous at worst and disingenuous at best. 3 of those wins came after the season was over in exhibition games that had as much meaning as pre-season games.

they weren't even good enough to make the tournament in a down year in college basketball.

that's not good.

They were just outside of the Tournament and got to the final 4 of the NIT ... Again though - All this is meaningless because the Suns did not draft Maryland, they drafted Alex Len

I bring up Maryland's lackluster season because I think it shows how little impact a #5 pick made on it.

I also think you're severely underestimating Len's potential - I've heard you post many times how Noel is in better shape to improve as a Freshmen than Len who is a sophomore, and how Noel looked better than Len as Freshman and how that somehow means something ...

not sure how it doesn't mean anything. going up against a higher level of competition, Noel was able to play with the big boys better then Len did when he came in. whether that's because Len was a foreigner or not, I don't know. neither do you. but it is a measurement that's worth discussing.

I could easily argue that Noel has more experience than Len (and thus less room to improve) despite being younger ... Before College, Noel played 4 years of High school Ball, AAU, etc. - He was much more prepared for his 1st year at Kentucky than Len who had to serve a 10 game suspension (all while being in a whole new country, not understanding English) and then being thrown into the fire during ACC Play under a 1st Year Head coach (and having to rely on the nation's biggest ballhog Terrell Stoglin to feed him the ball)

this is a good point, but you make it seem like Len had never even seen a basketball before he got over here. The Euros have been developing kids younger and younger these days. is it comparable to the AAU? Probably not, but it's not like Len was completely new to the sport.

Len's Sophomore season was kind of his freshman season and I just find it really funny how 12-8-2 in 27 mpg is somehow considered underwhelming ... That is actually pretty good considering the circumstances Len has had to deal with and where he's come from just 2 years ago

Len's sophomore season was his sophomore season. Trying to argue otherwise is kinda ridiculous to me. and 12-8-2 just isn't all that impressive to me.

 

[SunsTzu]

you're right...I should have said terribly mediocre. EDIT: wait a second...that IS what I said and it's true. listing them at 25-13 is kinda ridiculous at worst and disingenuous at best. 3 of those wins came after the season was over in exhibition games that had as much meaning as pre-season games.

they weren't even good enough to make the tournament in a down year in college basketball.

that's not good.

Earlier you said "Len, who played the entire season on a terribly mediocre Maryland team, unable to elevate them to a .500 record". Even with you completely writing off 3 wins 22-12 is quite a bit higher than .500.

Kentucky was by no means a lock of making the tournament themselves even before losing Noel, despite have more talent.

I bring up Maryland's lackluster season because I think it shows how little impact a #5 pick made on it.

Kentucky wasn't setting the world on fire with their season either. Noel was only 1-4 against tournament teams while Len was 3-4 including 2 wins against #2 Duke. What was the most impressive team Noel celebrated a victory against? Ole Miss?

going up against a higher level of competition, Noel was able to play with the big boys better then Len did when he came in.

Again 1-4 against tourney teams vs 3-4. What big boys are you talking about?

The Euros have been developing kids younger and younger these days.

That's a pretty broad generalization and greatly dependant on which European country you're talking about. The Ukraine is nowhere near countries like Spain, France, Greece, Serbia, Croatia or Lithuania in terms of basketball development. I actually can't even recall watching the Ukrainian team competing in any international competition at any level.

*Looked it up and according to wikipedia "Their best result to date was the 13th place at EuroBasket, in 1997. The team has yet to qualify for the Olympics or the Basketball World Championship."

Doesn't exactly sound like a hotbed of basketball development.

wow...so, now you're writing off Noel as even being an NBA player...and he can only be effective in the Pac-12.

I'm not even saying Len's going to be terrible. I think he can be okay. But the above suggests that Noel has no business even being in the NBA. That's ridiculous.

I do think Noel will struggle to make a major impact but I expect him to play in the league for some time if he's healthy. I just don't value the skills he currently has as much as the people that rate him highly and I'm skeptical about him developing the ones I think he'll need. There are a lot of NBA players I wouldn't want on my team(unfortunately some of them are already on the Suns), doesn't mean they don't belong in the league.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Earlier you said "Len, who played the entire season on a terribly mediocre Maryland team, unable to elevate them to a .500 record". Even with you completely writing off 3 wins 22-12 is quite a bit higher than .500.

Kentucky was by no means a lock of making the tournament themselves even before losing Noel, despite have more talent.



Kentucky wasn't setting the world on fire with their season either. Noel was only 1-4 against tournament teams while Len was 3-4 including 2 wins against #2 Duke. What was the most impressive team Noel celebrated a victory against? Ole Miss?



Again 1-4 against tourney teams vs 3-4. What big boys are you talking about?



That's a pretty broad generalization and greatly dependant on which European country you're talking about. The Ukraine is nowhere near countries like Spain, France, Greece, Serbia, Croatia or Lithuania in terms of basketball development. I actually can't even recall watching the Ukrainian team competing in any international competition at any level.

*Looked it up and according to wikipedia "Their best result to date was the 13th place at EuroBasket, in 1997. The team has yet to qualify for the Olympics or the Basketball World Championship."

Doesn't exactly sound like a hotbed of basketball development.



I do think Noel will struggle to make a major impact but I expect him to play in the league for some time if he's healthy. I just don't value the skills he currently has as much as the people that rate him highly and I'm skeptical about him developing the ones I think he'll need. There are a lot of NBA players I wouldn't want on my team(unfortunately some of them are already on the Suns), doesn't mean they don't belong in the league.

Excellent post. Nice to have facts rather than assumptions.

 

[Cheesebeef]

No one here is going to persuade someone else that their opinion is wrong so i Guess ill just end my part of the discussion with something simple.

I didn't like the pick, but I hope to be proven wrong.

 

[Russ Smith]

Ok now you're just making stuff up - Maryland was 25-13 last year and weren't as terrible as everybody is making them out to be ... They were just outside of the Tournament and got to the final 4 of the NIT ... Again though - All this is meaningless because the Suns did not draft Maryland, they drafted Alex Len

I also think you're severely underestimating Len's potential - I've heard you post many times how Noel is in better shape to improve as a Freshmen than Len who is a sophomore, and how Noel looked better than Len as Freshman and how that somehow means something ...

I could easily argue that Noel has more experience than Len (and thus less room to improve) despite being younger ... Before College, Noel played 4 years of High school Ball, AAU, etc. - He was much more prepared for his 1st year at Kentucky than Len who had to serve a 10 game suspension (all while being in a whole new country, not understanding English) and then being thrown into the fire during ACC Play under a 1st Year Head coach (and having to rely on the nation's biggest ballhog Terrell Stoglin to feed him the ball)

Len's Sophomore season was kind of his freshman season and I just find it really funny how 12-8-2 in 27 mpg is somehow considered underwhelming ... That is actually pretty good considering the circumstances Len has had to deal with and where he's come from just 2 years ago

Slight quibble, Noel only played 3 years of HS because of his injury. They reclassfied him because of his first knee surgery, then decided he'd recovered and was playing so well he reclassed again back into his original class and that's why he was a freshman at UK last season not a senior in prepschool.

but the point is valid, Len is newer to the game than Noel, especially the US version of it.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Bump. Some discussions were going on about who liked the Len pick. Enjoy.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Bump. Some discussions were going on about who liked the Len pick. Enjoy.

I certainly didn't like him prior to the draft. IIRC it took me a few weeks post draft just to approach neutrality on the guy. My biggest concern was always his injury but even without the injury I never dreamed he had the kind of potential he's been showing. But I'm too lazy to re-read this thread.

Steve