Offseason Deal with Denver

[thegrahamcrackr]

BTW, I am not convinced BC is going to break up this team and reverse the plan he has been working on over the last few years.

I definitely don't want him to, but you obviously haven't followed the Suns for very long

 

[coloradosun]

I am trying to come up with a scenerio where we get something in return instead of just loosing JJ or paying both. Getting Nene in return for Q makes more sense to me.

The Voshon Leonard situation just came to light with a article in the Rocky Mountain News today. Q had interest in the Nuggets and Nuggets had interest in him, both parties may have interest.

 

[George O'Brien]

I am trying to come up with a scenerio where we get something in return instead of just loosing JJ or paying both. Getting Nene in return for Q makes more sense to me.

The Voshon Leonard situation just came to light with a article in the Rocky Mountain News today. Q had interest in the Nuggets and Nuggets had interest in him, both parties may have interest.

This will always come down to the same thing. As long as D'Antoni is coach, the Suns are not going to have a conventional lineup. They are going to have a speed lineup with lots of shooters. It certainly appears that BC is totally on board with that strategy and the mid season deals have all been for people who fit D'Antoni's requirements.

Personally, I'd love to have a tank that bangs around, grabs rebounds, and keeps guys out of the paint. But that's not the kind of guy D'Antoni wants. He wants great jump athletes who shoot well. That's not Nene.

 

[asudevil83]

i'm going to go out on a limb and say that the suns should go after Magloire in the offseason and use JJ as bait. maybe something along the lines of JJ/Barbs/Voskul/future first for Magloire/Claxton. it probably wouldnt happen though, and it'd turn the Hornets into the old Mavricks, with them having something like half of our old team.

but using a little imagination, we'd have an amazing team....especially if we were to use our MLE to keep Hunter and sign Marshall. if its not possible to keep Hunter, we could then use our picks on a big guy like Frye to play backup....and a young SF/SG. we'd then fill out our rotation with a couple of vet min players.

Magloire/Hunter or Frye
Amare/Marshall
Marion/Q
Q/Jimmy J
Nash/Claxton/Milos

 

[cardsunsfan]

Why do we want to change something that aint broke? Why are you guys so obsessed with getting a center? We do have the best record in the league last time I checked.... even if we just come close to winning the whole thing I think we should keep our team together. I think everybody is going to get better next yr except for maybe Nash and Marion but I think Nash will work hard to stay in shape/young and MArion should stay good.. the only reason why I'd mess with chemistry is if Amare was getting pissed he had to play center all the time and was threatening to leave.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Why do we want to change something that aint broke? Why are you guys so obsessed with getting a center? We do have the best record in the league last time I checked.... even if we just come close to winning the whole thing I think we should keep our team together. ave.

Amen.

Let's see, we have one of the two best centers in the league. But he's not good enough because he is 1 1/2 inches too short to play the position. The argument is that Amare's really a pf. Why is that? Because he is getting abused physically by all those athletic big guys out there? No way, Amare absolutely punishes most big men in the league. Hunter frustrates the rest. Our center position is just fine.

Shawn is too short/small to play pf. So what do we replace him with? I know, a pf that rebounds better, plays better D, stays out of Amare's way, scores better without plays being run for him, and keeps up with Steve Nash on the break.
As soon as we find that guy, by all means, trade for him.

We're on a 60 win plus pace, best record in the league, potential championship team, and we're talking about trading one of our starting lineup pieces for a backup on a team that might barely make the playoffs?

My plan for this summer would be to trade that pick for quality vet depth, sign Vujanic, and prepare to go for our second championship in 2005-6.

 

[pokerface]

Obvious factors are being overlooked in this thread...

1) Q has a trade kicker which lessons his trade value... then add that to his low fg% and BYC status and the dude is virtually untradable. Not only all that but its bad business for the Suns to aquire a player that just signed with them and trade him the same year. JJ is the one that refused to sign with the Suns....Q is the one that signed willingly.

2) Speaking of JJ...lets remember the Suns tried to save money on his contract for a reason. Either they're saving money for other players like Amare or they think JJ wasnt worth what he was asking for. Well if JJ wasnt worth it then how is it going to be when another "desperately wanting to upgrade" team throws a boatload of money at JJ this coming offseason. Dont think its not possible either that JJ gets offered a fat contract...just look at last offseasons spending spree on players. Teams will overspend to steal a player. So why should we overspend to keep JJ when in my eyes he looks just as inconsistant as last season.

 

[sunsfn]

Obvious factors are being overlooked in this thread...

1) Q has a trade kicker which lessons his trade value... then add that to his low fg% and BYC status and the dude is virtually untradable. Not only all that but its bad business for the Suns to aquire a player that just signed with them and trade him the same year. JJ is the one that refused to sign with the Suns....Q is the one that signed willingly.

2) Speaking of JJ...lets remember the Suns tried to save money on his contract for a reason. Either they're saving money for other players like Amare or they think JJ wasnt worth what he was asking for. Well if JJ wasnt worth it then how is it going to be when another "desperately wanting to upgrade" team throws a boatload of money at JJ this coming offseason. Dont think its not possible either that JJ gets offered a fat contract...just look at last offseasons spending spree on players. Teams will overspend to steal a player. So why should we overspend to keep JJ when in my eyes he looks just as inconsistant as last season.

WHere the H........ have you been this year!!!! Obviously not watching the suns and JJ play...........GEEEEEZ!!!

 

[Kolo]

Amen.

Let's see, we have one of the two best centers in the league. But he's not good enough because he is 1 1/2 inches too short to play the position. The argument is that Amare's really a pf. Why is that? Because he is getting abused physically by all those athletic big guys out there? No way, Amare absolutely punishes most big men in the league. Hunter frustrates the rest. Our center position is just fine.

Shawn is too short/small to play pf. So what do we replace him with? I know, a pf that rebounds better, plays better D, stays out of Amare's way, scores better without plays being run for him, and keeps up with Steve Nash on the break.
As soon as we find that guy, by all means, trade for him.

We're on a 60 win plus pace, best record in the league, potential championship team, and we're talking about trading one of our starting lineup pieces for a backup on a team that might barely make the playoffs?

My plan for this summer would be to trade that pick for quality vet depth, sign Vujanic, and prepare to go for our second championship in 2005-6.

I agree, Jesus. Although if we have a chance to draft a guy who's ready to play and fits the system (Joey Graham, for example) I'd prefer picking him and letting him fill the role Jim Jackson does in a few years.

 

[coloradosun]

WHere the H........ have you been this year!!!! Obviously not watching the suns and JJ play...........GEEEEEZ!!!

Amen

JJ has increased his three point shooting from a 36% average (30% last season) to 45% this year. Q is just a chucker and proved it by winning the 3pt contest at the All Star game, he's got a good shot if no one is covering him.

I am using hindsight here but Iggy (had a triple double last night) would have been a better fit than Q. I would rather have JJ sitting on the arch and Iggy slashing.

 

[Mainstreet]

I really did not want to get into this discusssion but I guess I have to throw in my 2 cents.

First, I would like Phoenix to keep their starting five if reasonably possible. They all play with heart which is hard to find in most players, especially Nash, Marion, Q, Amare and Johnson although Joe is less demonstrative. This does not mean he does not play with just as much heart.

The only way I would explore a trade with Denver or any other team for a big man plus change would be if JJ's market value is simply too high. I was worried about this issue even before the season began.

Joe Johnson has proven to me he is a gamer and a multi-positional player. He not only proven he can play at least three positions (PG. SG and SF). Also when I look at his build, I sometimes almost confuse him with Amare... yes, I think he could also play PF in a pinch.

My bottom line is keep our starting five at all costs and only trade JJ if it becomes unreasonable to keep him because of an excessive contract offer. I would want alot in a sign and trade with Denver or any other team... much more than, e.g., Nene, who is still inproven/injured and Leonard.

Keep our starting five and just add some role players and draft picks.

I agree with other posts that would trade the Chicago pick for a proven center but I don't think the Suns would even have to this. Don't the Suns have like a MLE.

 

[coloradosun]

In a perfect scenerio, the lineup we have wins the title and we keep it together for next season.

If it does not happen, the reality is that there will be some changes made in the off season. The playoffs are a whole different animal than the regular season, there is no denying that. If this system does not take us to at least the Western Conference finals my guess is that we will add a center.

The reason I brought this idea into a thread is that with the option of buying Leonard out and adding Nene in return for Q is because it is one deal out there that also provides cap space. No other trades are going to be that helpful in providing flexibility, unless they are with teams with cap space available and those teams do not have a player like Nene that could be acquired.

The three years that Nene has under his belt is going be more of benefit than inserting a rookie into the rotation, be it Sean May, Sheldon Williams or whoever. I do think that Nene needs better conditioning but if he spends the offseason under the Suns program, I have no doubts that he will fit into the running game.

 

[George O'Brien]

I think far too much has been made about the fact that the Suns did not sign JJ to an extension last Sept. The simple truth is that JJ had only a few months of solid play late last season and went into a slump when Amare came back. There were serious doubts as to whether he would really make the jump to the next level.

Somehow this has been interpreted as a decision not to re-sign JJ. It almost always falls into a further belief that the Suns cannot continue to start the same five guys in future years and need to return to a conventional lineup.

The Suns knew that JJ is going to be an RFA, so they weren't really risking losing him. Maybe they would risk having to pay more than they had planned, but even that isn't certain considering the new Collective Bargaining Agreement will come into play (shorter contracts, etc.)

I'm not discounting a "sign and trade" - if the offer is first rate. But I don't see getting Nene as being sufficiently attractive to bother with.

 

[asudevil83]

what many of you guys are also failing to see is that Amare doesnt like playing the center position. sure, he deals with it because we are winning, but this is only temporary. marion is also suffering from nagging injuries because he is forced to match up with guys 500 pounds bigger than him. THIS AINT GOOD.

what if amare were forced to play the center position for years to come? what if marion were forced to play the power foward position for years to come? the SECOND amare can bail.....he will. and do we want marion to suffer from nagging injuries for the rest of his career? no.

the suns need a center. they need a guy who can play defence down low and bruise it up with the big guys. we dont need a 6"10, who worries more about scoring than rebounding, play center...and we dont need an athletic 6"7 guy playing power foward night in and night out.

 

[George O'Brien]

There are two issues. Can the Suns win it all with the speed lineup? Possibly. Do the Suns need a physical inside player? Absolutely.

It doesn't matter who starts. What matters is whether Marion has to play 40 minutes against really big guys, because there is no one to back him up. Hunter is a nice player, but he's listed at only 240 pounds and is not a physical rebounder. Jake is heavier but not very strong. McCarty is about 230 and has never been much of a rebounder.

The Suns do need at 260 pound tank who can bang and defend the low post. It is not necessary that he be a starter, but he could get 25 minutes a game - IF he can run and shoot. Unfortunately, most of the 250+ guys don't run well nor shoot well.

My guess is that the Suns will focus on finding another athletic big in the off season who fits the Suns style. However, I don't think they will break up their core to get him.

 

[JPlay]

We need a Reggie Evans type player, who can board and intimidate players in the lane. He doesn't have to start on the first team, but when should have a second team that is defense oriented. Barbosa, JJax, Enforcer, Hunter and starter.

 

[pokerface]

WHere the H........ have you been this year!!!! Obviously not watching the suns and JJ play...........GEEEEEZ!!!

And exactly what have you been watching?? JJ is just as inconsistant as last year....minus his three point shooting which has improved. JJ seems to be only good every other game....games on the road he thrives and games at home he blows. JJ should get offered half the max because he's only good half the time!

 

[Mainstreet]

The reason I brought this idea into a thread is that with the option of buying Leonard out and adding Nene in return for Q is because it is one deal out there that also provides cap space. No other trades are going to be that helpful in providing flexibility, unless they are with teams with cap space available and those teams do not have a player like Nene that could be acquired.

The three years that Nene has under his belt is going be more of benefit than inserting a rookie into the rotation, be it Sean May, Sheldon Williams or whoever. I do think that Nene needs better conditioning but if he spends the offseason under the Suns program, I have no doubts that he will fit into the running game.

Coloradosun, it's hard to argue with your logic, however, I believe Q is much more valuable to the Suns than just as a shooter and a post-up player. I've noticed even when he has an off-night shooting he makes up for it with his energy in other areas such as rebounding, defense and all-out hustle. I believe he is part of the heart and soul of this team that can't be measured. I just don't think the Suns would be as motivated without Q. I believe losing Q would present a tremendous chemistry gap.

However, the Suns will need an experienced big man or two next year that do not have to learn on the job as you point out. Also I think asudevil83 aptly pointed out, I just don't think the Suns can take the hammering year-in and year-out, especially with Marion playing the PF position. I even question the continued pounding Amare must take from larger centers and thugs that play upfront. I believe Amare could use some additional help on the front line by adding a true center. I would like Marion to return to SF and let Q ignite the team off the bench.

I thought before the season started this current Suns lineup would be only situational and used as a change-up to demoralize other teams at pivotal times in the game, such as to open the third quarter or the last five minutes of the game. However, it has proven a winning formula thus far as a regular rotation. I'm just not sure it is a long term answer.

In summary, I just hope the Suns do not trade any of their current starting five. Q's contract is also reasonable and long term I believe. If money were to become an issue with the Suns and JJ, then a sign and trade with Joe Johnson might be the most logical alternative. He would likely bring a substantial return in trade but I would rather not go this direction. I would rather pick up the center we need in free agency or a minor trade. Perhaps the draft might yield a long term prospect.

 

[coloradosun]

Nene has some fire in him as well, I would rather have a 260 pounder with some attitude than 6-5 shooting guard with who can talk the talk but not walk the walk.

As I posted before

Nene contributes 10 points in 28 min.
Q contributes 15 points in 37 min.

28 minutes is about all we need out of him and give Barbosa the additional 9 minutes and I bet he can score 5 points in that time.

As far as chemistry, I would imagine his Brazilian roots will mesh very well with Barbosa and the rest of the team. This might even inspire Barbs to take his game to a higher level, Q was able to inspire Hunter.

 

[Chaplin]

28 minutes is about all we need out of him and give Barbosa the additional 9 minutes and I bet he can score 5 points in that time.

As far as chemistry, I would imagine his Brazilian roots will mesh very well with Barbosa and the rest of the team. This might even inspire Barbs to take his game to a higher level.

That logic is so flawed, it's not even funny. You can't just expect Barbosa to "make up" 5 points, you still have his own points to worry about. Your hate for Q is bordering on ridiculous man!

 

[coloradosun]

That logic is so flawed, it's not even funny. You can't just expect Barbosa to "make up" 5 points, you still have his own points to worry about. Your hate for Q is bordering on ridiculous man!

It is that I have more appreciation of JJ than Q, I am not a trashing Q. I am just trying to come up with option of moving Q and coming up with adequate compensation.

If Barbosa gets more minutes because Q is gone, I can only expect him to improve enough to get an extra 5 points.


Here's another deal that works cap wise.

Nene, Elson and Lenard

for

Q and Hunter

keep our first rounder and select a guy like Joey Graham.

Elson is a 7 footer and more coordinated than Hunter. He is very capable of fitting in running game and can hit a 15 foot jumper unlike Hunter.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Wow, I totally disagree with pretty much this entire post.

Nash is certainly the leader, but Q is the emotional leader, I don't think there is a question about that.

q is the toughness. as much as he's the most limited, physically, of our entire team, i think his intangibles cannot be replaced by anyone currently on our roster.

 

[frdbtr]

It is that I have more appreciation of JJ than Q, I am not a trashing Q. I am just trying to come up with option of moving Q and coming up with adequate compensation.

If Barbosa gets more minutes because Q is gone, I can only expect him to improve enough to get an extra 5 points.


Here's another deal that works cap wise.

Nene, Elson and Lenard

for

Q and Hunter

keep our first rounder and select a guy like Joey Graham.

Elson is a 7 footer and more coordinated than Hunter. He is very capable of fitting in running game and can hit a 15 foot jumper unlike Hunter.

Are you really a nuggets fan trying to pass yourself off as a Suns fan? All of your trade scenarios would make the nuggets better and the Suns worse.

 

[Joe Mama]

And exactly what have you been watching?? JJ is just as inconsistant as last year....minus his three point shooting which has improved. JJ seems to be only good every other game....games on the road he thrives and games at home he blows. JJ should get offered half the max because he's only good half the time!

JJ still has some off games. He struggles in some big games. He is not as inconsistent as in the past. I've changed my tune in the last few weeks. As long as he doesn't drop off drastically over the next few weeks or fall apart in the playoffs somebody will offer him a big contract. I figure a lot of it will just depend on the new CBA rules. If they stayed roughly the same he would probably get something starting at around $9 million or more.

The team that really scares me the most is the Cleveland Cavaliers. Even though Cleveland is a hole that would have to be an appealing situation. He would have the chance to be the Scottie Pippen to Lebron's Michael Jordan.

The Phoenix Suns are not going to trade Q this summer.

Joe Mama

 

[coloradosun]

q is the toughness. as much as he's the most limited, physically, of our entire team, i think his intangibles cannot be replaced by anyone currently on our roster.

I want to replace his intangibles with someone from the Nuggets roster, Nene.