Ok ASFN genius's...how do you fix the Cardinals in the offseason?

[Cbus cardsfan]

FA. You have to sign ONE solid offensive linemen. I don't care which one, but either Brandon Albert, Ryan Clady, Andre Smith or Andy Levitre. Any one of these guys would arguably be the best offensive lineman on our roster and upgrade the unit as a whole. I think Levitre might be the most likely here.

Acquire a QB. You have two options here and I don't care which one we use, but we do need to use one. Either trade for a QB castoff from a disenchanted franchise (Romo, Sanchez or Rivers) or take one in the first round. If you trade for one, you have to keep your 2013 first rounder because it is the key to the rest of your success. My option would be a 2013 2nd rounder, and a 2014 1st and 4th for Romo. FWI, I think Romo's athleticism plays better for the Cards than Rivers lead feet in the pocket. Rivers is a better QB, but just not for the Cards IMO.

Make the draft count. You have to add two more linemen with your first three picks (1st, 3rd and 4th). Personally, if we are drafting in the top 10, I would take an OT with that pick. I think OTs are underrated, but we have to win now and this is the fastest approach. I will say Luke Joeckel is the 2nd rated OT right now, and that is who we take. With our 3rd rounder, I would take an OC like Khaled Holmes or Travis Frederick.

This leaves us with an offense that line up

LT - Luke Joeckel (Levi Brown as principle backup)
LG - Andy Levitre (Daryn Colledge as principle backup)
OC - Lyle Sendlein vs. Khaled Holmes/Travis Frederick
RG - Daryn Colledge vs. Senio Kelemente vs. Adam Snyder
RT - Levi Brown (Bobby Massie as developmental backup)

QB-Tony Romo

This personnel can get enough out of Chris Wells, Ryan Williams, Rob Housler, Jeff King, Larry Fitzgerald, Michael Floyd, and Andre Roberts to compete with most teams in the NFL.

I read some good reviews on Joekel's performance against LSU. He'll be the #1 rated OT in the draft and has been able to keep Matthews, another highly rated OT, at the RT position. Matthews would probably be the starting LT on any other college team. Top 3 OL in this year draft, I think are Joekel, Matthews, Warmack.

 

[GatorAZ]

FA. You have to sign ONE solid offensive linemen. I don't care which one, but either Brandon Albert, Ryan Clady, Andre Smith or Andy Levitre. Any one of these guys would arguably be the best offensive lineman on our roster and upgrade the unit as a whole. I think Levitre might be the most likely here.

Acquire a QB. You have two options here and I don't care which one we use, but we do need to use one. Either trade for a QB castoff from a disenchanted franchise (Romo, Sanchez or Rivers) or take one in the first round. If you trade for one, you have to keep your 2013 first rounder because it is the key to the rest of your success. My option would be a 2013 2nd rounder, and a 2014 1st and 4th for Romo. FWI, I think Romo's athleticism plays better for the Cards than Rivers lead feet in the pocket. Rivers is a better QB, but just not for the Cards IMO.

Make the draft count. You have to add two more linemen with your first three picks (1st, 3rd and 4th). Personally, if we are drafting in the top 10, I would take an OT with that pick. I think OTs are underrated, but we have to win now and this is the fastest approach. I will say Luke Joeckel is the 2nd rated OT right now, and that is who we take. With our 3rd rounder, I would take an OC like Khaled Holmes or Travis Frederick.

This leaves us with an offense that line up

LT - Luke Joeckel (Levi Brown as principle backup)
LG - Andy Levitre (Daryn Colledge as principle backup)
OC - Lyle Sendlein vs. Khaled Holmes/Travis Frederick
RG - Daryn Colledge vs. Senio Kelemente vs. Adam Snyder
RT - Levi Brown (Bobby Massie as developmental backup)

QB-Tony Romo

This personnel can get enough out of Chris Wells, Ryan Williams, Rob Housler, Jeff King, Larry Fitzgerald, Michael Floyd, and Andre Roberts to compete with most teams in the NFL.

Colledge is the only good OL on the team...

There is no way Romo or Rivers gets traded unless Josh McDaniels takes over in DAL or SD.

Horton was pimping Vick all week before we played them. If he's the coach he'll go after the then-released MV and build the OL thru the draft.

 

[Buckybird]

Horton was pimping Vick all week before we played them.

I would say that's what coaches do to opponents & it meant nada...but I think it was Horton who coined the phrase about McFadden "we will have to coach the Arizona out of him". Maybe it's something in the water that ruins these guys

 

[Buckybird]

FA. You have to sign ONE solid offensive linemen. I don't care which one, but either Brandon Albert, Ryan Clady, Andre Smith or Andy Levitre. Any one of these guys would arguably be the best offensive lineman on our roster and upgrade the unit as a whole. I think Levitre might be the most likely here.

Acquire a QB. You have two options here and I don't care which one we use, but we do need to use one. Either trade for a QB castoff from a disenchanted franchise (Romo, Sanchez or Rivers) or take one in the first round. If you trade for one, you have to keep your 2013 first rounder because it is the key to the rest of your success. My option would be a 2013 2nd rounder, and a 2014 1st and 4th for Romo. FWI, I think Romo's athleticism plays better for the Cards than Rivers lead feet in the pocket. Rivers is a better QB, but just not for the Cards IMO.

Make the draft count. You have to add two more linemen with your first three picks (1st, 3rd and 4th). Personally, if we are drafting in the top 10, I would take an OT with that pick. I think OTs are underrated, but we have to win now and this is the fastest approach. I will say Luke Joeckel is the 2nd rated OT right now, and that is who we take. With our 3rd rounder, I would take an OC like Khaled Holmes or Travis Frederick.

This leaves us with an offense that line up

LT - Luke Joeckel (Levi Brown as principle backup)
LG - Andy Levitre (Daryn Colledge as principle backup)
OC - Lyle Sendlein vs. Khaled Holmes/Travis Frederick
RG - Daryn Colledge vs. Senio Kelemente vs. Adam Snyder
RT - Levi Brown (Bobby Massie as developmental backup)

QB-Tony Romo

This personnel can get enough out of Chris Wells, Ryan Williams, Rob Housler, Jeff King, Larry Fitzgerald, Michael Floyd, and Andre Roberts to compete with most teams in the NFL.

 

[conraddobler]

Agonize over hiring a GM, when that's done go fishing a lot.

 

[Chopper0080]

I read some good reviews on Joekel's performance against LSU. He'll be the #1 rated OT in the draft and has been able to keep Matthews, another highly rated OT, at the RT position. Matthews would probably be the starting LT on any other college team. Top 3 OL in this year draft, I think are Joekel, Matthews, Warmack.

Joeckel was very impressive vs LSU, and could very well be the first OT off the board. My one hope, if we don't draft a QB in round 1, is that the top defensive talent in this draft gives us a shot at Joeckel.

As far as the top 3 linemen go...I would put Joeckel and Warmack at the top. I haven't watched a ton of Lewan in Michigan and Matthews could be a LT only. Either way, if we want to address the offensive line, there are 4 guys in the first round who could start for us that shohuld be available.

Pipedream...if Cards have a top 10 pick and do not go with a rookie QB. Get Joeckel in the first round and then trade up to the late teens to grab Chance Warmack.

 

[kerouac9]

A Realistic Offseason Plan

1. Levi Brown comes back. That's an immediate upgrade at LT, and a secondary upgrade at RT, where Massie can get more help via the scheme.

2. Bobbie Massie has a year in the strength & conditioning program.

3. Nate Potter has a year of NFL practice and in the strength and conditioning program. He should be the 3rd tackle coming into training camp.

4. Beanie Wells is healthy (good) and in a contract year (better).

Arizona's Pending Free agents: RB LaRod Stephens-Howling, TE Todd Heap, OG Jeremy Bridges, OT D'Anthony Batiste, DL Vonnie Holliday, CB Michael Adams, CB Greg Toler, FS Rashad Johnson, FS Kerry Rhodes (due to voided year).

FS Kerry Rhodes is the only priority re-signing. If we have cap room left right now, he's the extension that I'd be working on.

Roster Management: Reduce Kevin Kolb's 2013 salary to $3 million with an additional $2 million to be made up in playing time and performance incentives.

Sign OG Chris Spencer (CHI) in free agency to compete with Kelemete, Snyder, and Colledge for starting guard.

Sign TE Travis Beckum (NYG) in free agency to team with King, Housler, and Dray at TE.

2013 NFL Draft:
1 (10) - Tyler Wilson, QB, Arkansas
2 (42) - Dallas Thomas, OL, Tennessee - This Vol can play Tackle or Guard depending on the system. Has great lateral movement as a pulling OG.
3 (74) - Ezekiel Ansah, DE/OLB, BYU - Really intriguing developmental player at the OLB position.
4 (106) - Michael Buchanan, DE/OLB, Illiniois - With Quentin Groves as a pending free agent and O'Brien Schofield entering a contract year, the Cards continue building their pass rush options.
5 (138) - Braxston Cave, OC, Notre Dame

 

[az jam]

Pipedream...if Cards have a top 10 pick and do not go with a rookie QB. Get Joeckel in the first round and then trade up to the late teens to grab Chance Warmack.

That looks like something the 49ers would do not our beloved Cardinals.

 

[Chopper0080]

Colledge is the only good OL on the team...

There is no way Romo or Rivers gets traded unless Josh McDaniels takes over in DAL or SD.

Horton was pimping Vick all week before we played them. If he's the coach he'll go after the then-released MV and build the OL thru the draft.

You and I disagree on what the term "good" entails.

 

[Chopper0080]

1. Levi Brown comes back. That's an immediate upgrade at LT, and a secondary upgrade at RT, where Massie can get more help via the scheme.

2. Bobbie Massie has a year in the strength & conditioning program.

3. Nate Potter has a year of NFL practice and in the strength and conditioning program. He should be the 3rd tackle coming into training camp.

4. Beanie Wells is healthy (good) and in a contract year (better).

Arizona's Pending Free agents: RB LaRod Stephens-Howling, TE Todd Heap, OG Jeremy Bridges, OT D'Anthony Batiste, DL Vonnie Holliday, CB Michael Adams, CB Greg Toler, FS Rashad Johnson, FS Kerry Rhodes (due to voided year).

FS Kerry Rhodes is the only priority re-signing. If we have cap room left right now, he's the extension that I'd be working on.

Roster Management: Reduce Kevin Kolb's 2013 salary to $3 million with an additional $2 million to be made up in playing time and performance incentives.

Sign OG Chris Spencer (CHI) in free agency to compete with Kelemete, Snyder, and Colledge for starting guard.

Sign TE Travis Beckum (NYG) in free agency to team with King, Housler, and Dray at TE.

2013 NFL Draft:
1 (10) - Tyler Wilson, QB, Arkansas
2 (42) - Dallas Thomas, OL, Tennessee - This Vol can play Tackle or Guard depending on the system. Has great lateral movement as a pulling OG.
3 (74) - Ezekiel Ansah, DE/OLB, BYU - Really intriguing developmental player at the OLB position.
4 (106) - Michael Buchanan, DE/OLB, Illiniois - With Quentin Groves as a pending free agent and O'Brien Schofield entering a contract year, the Cards continue building their pass rush options.
5 (138) - Braxston Cave, OC, Notre Dame

And by realistic you mean boring.

S has to be addressed if Rashad Johnson is not re-signed as I believe James Sanders will be a FA as well.

Love Tyler Wilson in round 1.

Dallas Thomas, Jonathan Cooper, and Travis Frederick are all possible 2nd round offensive linemen I like.

I am of the mind if the Cardinals really want to make a big move though, they will trade up for a Jake Matthews, Eric Fisher or Chance Warmack to upgrade the line with a top talent. Tyler Wilson, Chance Warmack, Tony Jefferson, Zack Ertz, Travis Long, Jonathan Bostic and David Quessenbarry would make a great draft class and would only cost us our 2014 1st rounder.

 

[kerouac9]

And by realistic you mean boring.

S has to be addressed if Rashad Johnson is not re-signed as I believe James Sanders will be a FA as well.

Love Tyler Wilson in round 1.

Dallas Thomas, Jonathan Cooper, and Travis Frederick are all possible 2nd round offensive linemen I like.

I am of the mind if the Cardinals really want to make a big move though, they will trade up for a Jake Matthews, Eric Fisher or Chance Warmack to upgrade the line with a top talent. Tyler Wilson, Chance Warmack, Tony Jefferson, Zack Ertz, Travis Long, Jonathan Bostic and David Quessenbarry would make a great draft class and would only cost us our 2014 1st rounder.

I don't think the Cards plan to do that, though. Considering the depth of the team compared to real playmakers, and the fact that you can get good starting-caliber OL in the middle rounds of the draft, I have a hard time believing that it's in the constitutional makeup of this front office to mortgage future picks for an offensive lineman.

I'll bet that the Cards look at their situation and decide that a year on the cake for Bobbie Massie and Nate Potter and the healthy return of Levi Brown will do wonders for this line.

Offseason plans that dictate Levi Brown's moving to right tackle or to the bench at all are bound to be incorrect.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I don't think the Cards plan to do that, though. Considering the depth of the team compared to real playmakers, and the fact that you can get good starting-caliber OL in the middle rounds of the draft, I have a hard time believing that it's in the constitutional makeup of this front office to mortgage future picks for an offensive lineman.

I'll bet that the Cards look at their situation and decide that a year on the cake for Bobbie Massie and Nate Potter and the healthy return of Levi Brown will do wonders for this line.

Offseason plans that dictate Levi Brown's moving to right tackle or to the bench at all are bound to be incorrect.

I agree that Levi Brown is not going anywhere but back to starting LT next year. That makes selecting Wilson, a good thing, a more likely scenario. I can't wait to receive my friends scouting report on Wilson in a couple weeks.

 

[Chopper0080]

I don't think the Cards plan to do that, though. Considering the depth of the team compared to real playmakers, and the fact that you can get good starting-caliber OL in the middle rounds of the draft, I have a hard time believing that it's in the constitutional makeup of this front office to mortgage future picks for an offensive lineman.

I'll bet that the Cards look at their situation and decide that a year on the cake for Bobbie Massie and Nate Potter and the healthy return of Levi Brown will do wonders for this line.

Offseason plans that dictate Levi Brown's moving to right tackle or to the bench at all are bound to be incorrect.

Me neither, but like Atlanta trading up for Julio Jones, I personally believe it is the move that needs to be made. I want and hope we get Tyler Wilson at this point in time. How the Cards construct an offensive line from their current talent pool, fa (limited help here) and mid rounds picks will be very interesting to me. Personally, I think the group of Brown, Massie and Potter is a pretty solid mix, but our interior line does not have one single redeeming plyer in the bunch IMO. Hopefully Kelemente devlops as he is at least athletic enough to pick up DEs stunting inside.

 

[Jetstream Green]

1. Levi Brown comes back. That's an immediate upgrade at LT, and a secondary upgrade at RT, where Massie can get more help via the scheme.

2. Bobbie Massie has a year in the strength & conditioning program.

3. Nate Potter has a year of NFL practice and in the strength and conditioning program. He should be the 3rd tackle coming into training camp.

4. Beanie Wells is healthy (good) and in a contract year (better).

Arizona's Pending Free agents: RB LaRod Stephens-Howling, TE Todd Heap, OG Jeremy Bridges, OT D'Anthony Batiste, DL Vonnie Holliday, CB Michael Adams, CB Greg Toler, FS Rashad Johnson, FS Kerry Rhodes (due to voided year).

FS Kerry Rhodes is the only priority re-signing. If we have cap room left right now, he's the extension that I'd be working on.

Roster Management: Reduce Kevin Kolb's 2013 salary to $3 million with an additional $2 million to be made up in playing time and performance incentives.

Sign OG Chris Spencer (CHI) in free agency to compete with Kelemete, Snyder, and Colledge for starting guard.

Sign TE Travis Beckum (NYG) in free agency to team with King, Housler, and Dray at TE.

2013 NFL Draft:
1 (10) - Tyler Wilson, QB, Arkansas
2 (42) - Dallas Thomas, OL, Tennessee - This Vol can play Tackle or Guard depending on the system. Has great lateral movement as a pulling OG.
3 (74) - Ezekiel Ansah, DE/OLB, BYU - Really intriguing developmental player at the OLB position.
4 (106) - Michael Buchanan, DE/OLB, Illiniois - With Quentin Groves as a pending free agent and O'Brien Schofield entering a contract year, the Cards continue building their pass rush options.
5 (138) - Braxston Cave, OC, Notre Dame

I like this. It is logical considering our organization and the way they move and therefor it makes positives strives which are not far fetched. If you want an elite QB, you have to draft them. The Warner pickups are once in a blue moon in the NFL.

 

[Denny Green Fan]

I agree that Levi Brown is not going anywhere but back to starting LT next year. That makes selecting Wilson, a good thing, a more likely scenario. I can't wait to receive my friends scouting report on Wilson in a couple weeks.

NFLDRAFTCOUNTDOWN has the Cards taking Wilson at number 17 overall.

He has Joeckel going to the Bills to be Cordy Glenns bookend at 6 and

Lewan going to the Rams at 10. They say Tyler Wilson= Ponder

 

[Denny Green Fan]

Trade Fitzgerald for a number 1 and 3

Cut Kevin Kolb

Go get Albert or Levitre

Draft
1 Tyler Wilson
1 Taylor Lewan or Mathews
2 Holmes USC center

 

[john h]

But, we have to assume Wiz & most if not all of his staff are intact for 2013. If we lose 12 straight the whole coaching staff might get the axe, which would please many.

So no Grimm or Miller firings allowed on your list

Here are my moves:

1) try to trade for Romo, giving the Cowpies next years #1 & a 2014 #2, making it a possible #1 if he performs at a certain level. Work out an extension lowering his $16 mil salary & keeping him from being a FA.

2) move Levi Brown to RT & Massie to the bench, cut Batiste. Demote Snyder & ask him for a pay cut or cut him & promote Kelemete to starting RG.

3) add a top LT in the 2013 draft in rd 2, test the FA market for the best LT available, whomever that is, if any.

4) draft a young QB with potential in 2013 & let him learn until Romo is finished. A kid like Mike Glennon in Rd 2 or 3 depending on what we've added at LT

5) play Stew Bradley at ILB alongside DWash

6) make a play for another OLB in FA, who has pass rush skills. Maybe even throw a another draft pick to the Boys for Victor Butler

7) make Steve Kiem the GM & fire Rod Graves to set an example

Fire away guys & gals

We move to Los Angeles and rename ourselves the Los Angeles Ducks. We hire Andy Reid, who will be fired, as our GM and name Ray Horton as the Head Coach. Our team is sold to the richest man or group available and the Bidwills sail off into the sunset with a boatload of money. Other than that I really have not a clue other than find a QB QB QB QB QB QB------------

 

[Chopper0080]

OK, here is a boring K9 style, reality based off-season plan.

Cardinals FA
RB-LSH
RB-William Powell
TE-Todd Heap
OT-Jeremy Bridges
OT-D'Anthony Batiste
OG-Rich Ohrnberger
DE-Vonnie Holliday
DT-Nick Eason
OLB-Quinton Groves
ILB-Paris Lenon
CB-Greg Toler
CB-Mike Adams
S-Kerry Rhodes
S-James Sanders
S-Rashad Johnson

Players to cut
QB-Kevin Kolb: cut/re-structure, he will stay but not scheduled cap hit
ILB-Stewart Bradley: Has not developed and his cap hit is too big.

FA Signings
QB-Kevin Kolb: restructure/re-sign, whatever he will stay
RB-Chris Ivory: Physical/versatile RB who can play if Williams & Wells get inj.
RB-William Powell: re-sign (knows system, 4th RB)
TE-James Casey: Can backup FB as well as team likes &is upgrade over Dray
TE-Delaine Walker: Rival's FA who gives a bit more athleticism than Heap/King
OT-Will Beatty: High pick that hasn't panned out, buy low option + TC body
DE-Kyle Moore: Personnal preference who I thought would fit 3-4 scheme
DT-Abrayo Franklin: Vet to push Dan Williams a bit
ILB-Paris Lenon: re-sign (I would love for Cards to get Maualaga, but doubt it
CB-Leodis McKelvin: To challenge Gay & Flemming for #2 spot
CB-Isaiah Trufant: Young player to replace Adams and push vets
S-Rashad Johnson: re-sign, knows system
S-Kerry Rhodes: re-sign, possibly future move to SS when Wilson heads out

Draft
1-Tyler Wilson-QB-Arkansas
***I think he is the best QB in the class, height might be an issue

2-Jonathan Cooper-OG-North Carolina
***Similar to Kelemente but more refined, other options B Jones / T Frederick

3-Khalil Mack-OLB-Buffalo
***TFL specialist and plays OLB in college. Replaces Groves.

4-Tony Jefferson-S-Oklahoma
***Physical S who adds needed depth

5-Travis Long-DE/OLB-Washington
***College sackster who brings physical style to defense

6-Kiko Alonso-ILB-Oregon
***Three down college LB, Paris Lenon Jr. Makes plays in college

7-David Kruger-DE-Utah
***Tough 3-4 DE who brings physical style of play

Depth and youth at QB, youth/physicality infused into the aging defense, and some veterans added to the offensive mix.

 

[kerouac9]

OK, here is a boring K9 style, reality based off-season plan.

Dang. That was mean.

If it's for similar money, I bet we keep LSH instead of William Powell. Keeps a draft pick in the system; he's a valuable contributor on special teams when healthy.

I'd be surprised if we bring in 8 "name" free agents. I'd love to get McKelvin, but I'm not sure why he'd come here to be a 3rd or 4th CB, and why we'd pay him for that job.

I'd love to keep Quentin Groves on a two-year, $3 million contract with half guaranteed. He plays special teams, and he'd keep a rookie OLB prospect off the field most of the time.

 

[Bodha]

Time to play my favortie Broken record of the October 2012's:

Oline.





I think Kolb can be a good QB with a solid line. Honestly. We have undeniable weapons at WR and TE. We have options at RB. Not great, but good enough. Our D is just dandy.

Our line is the worst in NFL history, factually and statistically.


Draft Options:

Jake Matthews RT
Chance Warmack G
Luke Joeckle LT
Larry Warford G
Barrett Jones T/G

* I say we make a move to get 2 1st rounders and take both these guys.

This will be an apocalyptic upgrade over Massie and Snyder on the ride side of our line. I think with Levi (Hopefully Larry Warford at G) and Lyle, we will have a damn good line.


Not Good.

A damn good line. Talent is infectious. If we get 2 (possibly 3) top tier guys in there, Levi and Lyle with both step their games up.

 

[kerouac9]

Time to play my favortie Broken record of the October 2012's:

Oline.





I think Kolb can be a good QB with a solid line. Honestly. We have undeniable weapons at WR and TE. We have options at RB. Not great, but good enough. Our D is just dandy.

Our line is the worst in NFL history, factually and statistically.


Draft Options:

Jake Matthews RT
Chance Warmack G
Luke Joeckle LT
Larry Warford G
Barrett Jones T/G

* I say we make a move to get 2 1st rounders and take both these guys.

This will be an apocalyptic upgrade over Massie and Snyder on the ride side of our line. I think with Levi (Hopefully Larry Warford at G) and Lyle, we will have a damn good line.


Not Good.

A damn good line. Talent is infectious. If we get 2 (possibly 3) top tier guys in there, Levi and Lyle with both step their games up.

Nonsense. Kolb wasn't very good behind a good OL in Philly, with very good weapons on the outside and an excellent weapon in the backfield. Everyone in Philly got better as soon as Kevin Kolb left the football field.

The fact of the matter is that a good OL doesn't make a bad quarterback better. Ask Blaine Gabbert. Actually, a good quarterback transcends an average or even bad offensive line, as we learned from the Kurt Warner era, or as you can see in Washington right now.

What a good OL can boost is average running backs. This would matter if I believed that this offensive coaching staff has any commitment to running the football whatsoever.

 

[PDXChris]

Our line is the worst in NFL history, factually and statistically.

Prove it or quit saying it. You spout things as fact when you have no idea.

 

[kerouac9]

Prove it or quit saying it. You spout things as fact when you have no idea.

I'd put Bodha on my ignore list if he didn't remind me so much of myself when I first came to the board. I don't think that I had as many crazy ideas ("Let's just sign Matt Barkley to a contract right now! Who's going to stop us???"), but the tenacity with which he holds on to misguided ideas is familiar of myself when I was 23, 24 years old.

 

[PDXChris]

I'd put Bodha on my ignore list if he didn't remind me so much of myself when I first came to the board. I don't think that I had as many crazy ideas ("Let's just sign Matt Barkley to a contract right now! Who's going to stop us???"), but the tenacity with which he holds on to misguided ideas is familiar of myself when I was 23, 24 years old.

You are telling us that Bodha is your son?

 

[kerouac9]

You are telling us that Bodha is your son?

I don't think so. He's more of my curse. I've been cursed with a poster who is as annoying to me as I was to Skkorp and nidan.