On Record For Kevin Kolb

[kerouac9]

I've apparently been saddled with a reputation as someone who benefits exclusively from hindsight and someone who hates Kevin Kolb. I'm going to go on record here about my opinions for Kolb, and I'll stick to them. But I don't want people running at me telling me that I'd hate whatever the Cards front office did no matter what happened.

Here are the circumstances in which getting a fair trade for Kolb would be a success:

• Less than a first-round pick.
• Less than a Pro-Bowl player (i.e. DRC)
• Two Second-round picks
• A second-round pick that accelerates to a first with performance incentives (4000 yards passing, Pro Bowl nomination, playoff apprearance)
• A second-round pick plus starting player (i.e., Toler, Hightower, Wells)

Here are the circumstances in which Kolb's extension would be successful:

• 4-6 years
• Less than $60 million in total money
• Less than $35 million in guaranteed money

Here are the circumstances in which Kolb's performance would be successful in 2011:

• 62% completion percentage or better
• 12 starts or better
• 3:2 TD:INT ratio
• 3500 yards passing
• 7.5 wins

That's me, on record, with my minimum qualifications for pats on the back or measured denounciations. I know that there are those of you who will justify your opinions based on whatever the coaching staff says (you know who you are). These are reasonable expectations for this transaction. And this will close my discussion of Kevin Kolb until I either see him in training camp or the preseason starts.

What are yours?

 

[Cheesebeef]

I've apparently been saddled with a reputation as someone who benefits exclusively from hindsight and someone who hates Kevin Kolb. I'm going to go on record here about my opinions for Kolb, and I'll stick to them. But I don't want people running at me telling me that I'd hate whatever the Cards front office did no matter what happened.

Here are the circumstances in which getting a fair trade for Kolb would be a success:

• Less than a first-round pick.
• Less than a Pro-Bowl player (i.e. DRC)
• Two Second-round picks
• A second-round pick that accelerates to a first with performance incentives (4000 yards passing, Pro Bowl nomination, playoff apprearance)
• A second-round pick plus starting player (i.e., Toler, Hightower, Wells)

Here are the circumstances in which Kolb's extension would be successful:

• 4-6 years
• Less than $60 million in total money
• Less than $35 million in guaranteed money

Here are the circumstances in which Kolb's performance would be successful in 2011:

• 62% completion percentage or better
• 12 starts or better
• 3:2 TD:INT ratio
• 3500 yards passing
• 7.5 wins

That's me, on record, with my minimum qualifications for pats on the back or measured denounciations. I know that there are those of you who will justify your opinions based on whatever the coaching staff says (you know who you are). These are reasonable expectations for this transaction. And this will close my discussion of Kevin Kolb until I either see him in training camp or the preseason starts.

What are yours?

I think the above is perfectly reasonable, but why even bother put the bolded section in there? what does that add to a football conversation except to call out a bunch of fans?

 

[ActingWild]

Completely agree with you K9...the talk right now has us way overpaying for Kolb.

 

[Duckjake]

Completely agree with you K9...the talk right now has us way overpaying for Kolb.

We'll overpay for Kolb or any other QB we have to trade for. For instance if we trade DRC for Kolb we've had to use our first round pick in 2008 to replace our first round pick in 2006. Wells for Orton or Palmer. First round pick in 2006 and first round pick in 2009.

But we have no choice. Just like in 2007 when the Cards had no choice but to draft an OT and had to pass on Adrian Peterson. That cost us another first round pick in 2009 and a 2nd rounder in 2011.

 

[kerouac9]

We'll overpay for Kolb or any other QB we have to trade for. For instance if we trade DRC for Kolb we've had to use our first round pick in 2008 to replace our first round pick in 2006. Wells for Orton or Palmer. First round pick in 2006 and first round pick in 2009.

But we have no choice. Just like in 2007 when the Cards had no choice but to draft an OT and had to pass on Adrian Peterson. That cost us another first round pick in 2009 and a 2nd rounder in 2011.

And trading DRC because he ostensibly "doesn't fit Horton's scheme" before he's had one practice to work with Horton is as stupid as allowing Leonard Davis to reach free agency without having a practice with Russ Grimm.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Here are the circumstances in which Kolb's performance would be successful in 2011:

• 62% completion percentage or better
• 12 starts or better
• 3:2 TD:INT ratio
• 3500 yards passing
• 7.5 wins

Most of this looks reasonable except for some of your 2011 minimums. Kolb is still a fairly inexperienced player that is going to have to master a new system with (at best) a truncated offseason in which to learn and prep. I'm not sure it's fair to require the guy to lead us to 3 more victories in his first season as a Cardinal let alone his first full season as a starter. Also, 3500 yards might be a bit much (especially if we only see him for those 12 starts you mention). I would hope he'd grow into a top 10 QB but it seems unreasonable to expect that this season.

Steve

 

[Crazy Canuck]

So what will you be saying if any of your 13 points do not come to pass?

 

[Duckjake]

Most of this looks reasonable except for some of your 2011 minimums. Kolb is still a fairly inexperienced player that is going to have to master a new system with (at best) a truncated offseason in which to learn and prep. I'm not sure it's fair to require the guy to lead us to 3 more victories in his first season as a Cardinal let alone his first full season as a starter. Also, 3500 yards might be a bit much (especially if we only see him for those 12 starts you mention). I would hope he'd grow into a top 10 QB but it seems unreasonable to expect that this season.

Steve

This will be Kolb's 5th NFL season. If he still needs seasoning then lets get someone else.

 

[Pariah]

I agree, except that I'd be okay if the team parted with a first round pick and I'd set the bar a little higher in terms of wins. I'd want him to get 9.

 

[Catfish]

K-9, You and I haven't always seen eye to eye, but on this issue, I am in complete agreement with you. I hope we don't over pay, (but am afraid we will). To my estimation, Kolb has done nothing to show that he should command anything near what we are said to be offering. If we do get him, I would really hope that any contract extension with him is loaded with incentive clauses, and low up-front money. I don't mind paying for performance, but to pay for speculation based upon no real solid past performance is pure folly in my opinion.

 

[AzStevenCal]

This will be Kolb's 5th NFL season. If he still needs seasoning then lets get someone else.

I wonder how many people made excuses for Leinart last preseason because of his limited game-time experience. Leinart came into the league a year before Kolb and he'd thrown for almost twice as many yards as Kevin. If you expect Kolb to walk in and be a finished product, I think you're setting yourself up for disappointment. Not every young QB is Aaron Rodgers.

Steve

 

[kerouac9]

I wonder how many people made excuses for Leinart last preseason because of his limited game-time experience. Leinart came into the league a year before Kolb and he'd thrown for almost twice as many yards as Kevin. If you expect Kolb to walk in and be a finished product, I think you're setting yourself up for disappointment. Not every young QB is Aaron Rodgers.

Steve

He's not that young anymore. He's a fifth year veteran, and he's had tons and tons if practice reps. He should be as good and consistent as Aaron Rodgers, Phillip Rivers, and Carson Palmer right out of the gate. The reason we're paying so much for him is that he should be able to hit the ground running.

 

[Longcolts]

Yeah tons and tons of practice reps in a different system with different terminology. He's got a lot of learning to do here in a very short time. Assuming of course that he's the one that the Cardinals end up with.

 

[Mulli]

He's not that young anymore. He's a fifth year veteran, and he's had tons and tons if practice reps. He should be as good and consistent as Aaron Rodgers, Phillip Rivers, and Carson Palmer right out of the gate. The reason we're paying so much for him is that he should be able to hit the ground running.

I agree. I am fully prepared to turn on him if he "needs more time" or some garbage.

#fickle

 

[kerouac9]

Yeah tons and tons of practice reps in a different system with different terminology. He's got a lot of learning to do here in a very short time. Assuming of course that he's the one that the Cardinals end up with.

Boo hoo. If he's a bad fit, then dont trade for him. If you're going to get a worse season from him then you'd get from Hasselback and still be able to draft a first-round QB in 2012 then it's a bad trade.

What do you expect? What's your minimum baseline for what makes for a successful deal? I hear a lot of carping, but no one else is putting THEIR expectations up here. I assume it's so they can redefine success when even modest goals go unachieved.

 

[kerouac9]

12 QBs including Sam Bradford passed for more than 3500 yards in 2010. Chad Henne passed for nearly 3300. Are we really giving away a pro bowl corner for a guy who won't rank in the top 15 QBs his first year here?

 

[40yearfan]

12 QBs including Sam Bradford passed for more than 3500 yards in 2010. Chad Henne passed for nearly 3300. Are we really giving away a pro bowl corner for a guy who won't rank in the top 15 QBs his first year here?

I agree K9. If we are going to pay a fortune to get this guy, he'd better be worth it this season. Otherwise go with one of the older veterans and hope Skelton will be ready within one or two years.

 

[Cheesebeef]

12 QBs including Sam Bradford passed for more than 3500 yards in 2010. Chad Henne passed for nearly 3300. Are we really giving away a pro bowl corner for a guy who won't rank in the top 15 QBs his first year here?

yeah, in a pass-happy league, 3500 really isn't all that much anymore. Kolb should be NFL ready by now. He's gotten time in various seasons and if he's got true talent, playing our weak-ass division, he should be able to show a decent amount of it in his first year.

 

[Longcolts]

I don't have any expectations because I know I don't have any control over what the Cardinals will or will not do, You keep spouting statistics and financial numbers and you're no better than any of the posters here. You have no idea what's going to happen or not happen.

 

[AzStevenCal]

yeah, in a pass-happy league, 3500 really isn't all that much anymore. Kolb should be NFL ready by now. He's gotten time in various seasons and if he's got true talent, playing our weak-ass division, he should be able to show a decent amount of it in his first year.

I'm not sold on Kolb, in fact, the only reason I'd consider trading for him is if that's what it took to keep Larry happy and in town. But still, it seems unreasonable to demand this much from Kolb in his first season with us. You guys can talk about him being experienced all you want but the truth is he's had a lot fewer opportunities than Leinart had and people were excusing his performances left and right last preseason. And despite his horrible preseason showing, many continued to bemoan the loss of him throughout the season.

I think Kolb should be able to show us something his first year but I'd expect and I'd accept some ups and downs. K9 put the minimum at 7.5 games (which means 8 wins) and someone else said we needed at least 9 from the guy. How many of you looked at our team last season and thought all we needed was a good QB to win 9 games? Not me. I don't think Peyton could have picked up more than 7 wins with this team. So how is it reasonable to expect a 3 game improvement and put it on Kolb's shoulders? The guy has thrown for 2000 yards total and now we expect at least 3500 from him in his first year with a new (and by all standards, BAD) team???

Yeah, the division is weak but we're one of the biggest reasons it's weak. And the other teams in our division have one big advantage over us - they get to play us twice.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

12 QBs including Sam Bradford passed for more than 3500 yards in 2010. Chad Henne passed for nearly 3300. Are we really giving away a pro bowl corner for a guy who won't rank in the top 15 QBs his first year here?

That still leaves a lot of starters that fell short of that mark. Yes, Bradford did cross the 3500 yard mark and if Kolb starts in all 16 games I'd expect him to meet or exceed Sam's 3512 yards also. But, if Kolb just plays in the 12 game minimum you're asking of him, 3500 yards starts to look a little lofty. There's a big difference between expecting almost 300 yards a game vs 220 yards per game which is the difference between racking up 3500 yards in 12 games vs 16 games.

Steve

 

[TJ]

12 QBs including Sam Bradford passed for more than 3500 yards in 2010. Chad Henne passed for nearly 3300. Are we really giving away a pro bowl corner for a guy who won't rank in the top 15 QBs his first year here?

How do you know definitively he wont be in the Top 15? Can I borrow your crystal ball for tomorrow's winning lottery numbers?

 

[AzStevenCal]

How do you know definitively he wont be in the Top 15? Can I borrow your crystal ball for tomorrow's winning lottery numbers?

I think he was just saying that in response to my post, I don't think he was intending to predict Kolb would fall below that level.

Steve

 

[40yearfan]

I'm not sold on Kolb, in fact, the only reason I'd consider trading for him is if that's what it took to keep Larry happy and in town. But still, it seems unreasonable to demand this much from Kolb in his first season with us. You guys can talk about him being experienced all you want but the truth is he's had a lot fewer opportunities than Leinart had and people were excusing his performances left and right last preseason. And despite his horrible preseason showing, many continued to bemoan the loss of him throughout the season.

I think Kolb should be able to show us something his first year but I'd expect and I'd accept some ups and downs. K9 put the minimum at 7.5 games (which means 8 wins) and someone else said we needed at least 9 from the guy. How many of you looked at our team last season and thought all we needed was a good QB to win 9 games? Not me. I don't think Peyton could have picked up more than 7 wins with this team. So how is it reasonable to expect a 3 game improvement and put it on Kolb's shoulders? The guy has thrown for 2000 yards total and now we expect at least 3500 from him in his first year with a new (and by all standards, BAD) team???

Yeah, the division is weak but we're one of the biggest reasons it's weak. And the other teams in our division have one big advantage over us - they get to play us twice.

Steve

Sorry, but I just can't go with this line of reasoning.

We went to the SB two years ago because we had a great offense. Our defense was very suspect, but they were able to rise to the ocassion because of the lift the offense gave the whole team. When you have a group of guys performing at a high level on a team, they seem to pull the rest of the players up and you get other guys playing above their skill level.

If we can recreate that magic, we can recreate that season. A great QB can do that for a team. You get a taste of winning and you want more. One or two stops at a critical time can make the difference between a win and a loss and when the defense can sense the momentum shifting to their favor, they suddenly make the hard tackles and get the sacks. I've seen this happen countless times when a team that isn't supposed to win suddenly catches fire and beats a much better team.

We just need some more of that old Warner "Magic".

 

[AzStevenCal]

Sorry, but I just can't go with this line of reasoning.

We went to the SB two years ago because we had a great offense. Our defense was very suspect, but they were able to rise to the ocassion because of the lift the offense gave the whole team. When you have a group of guys performing at a high level on a team, they seem to pull the rest of the players up and you get other guys playing above their skill level.

If we can recreate that magic, we can recreate that season. A great QB can do that for a team. You get a taste of winning and you want more. One or two stops at a critical time can make the difference between a win and a loss and when the defense can sense the momentum shifting to their favor, they suddenly make the hard tackles and get the sacks. I've seen this happen countless times when a team that isn't supposed to win suddenly catches fire and beats a much better team.

We just need some more of that old Warner "Magic".

And Dansby, And Boldin! We were missing more than Warner and Dansby was a huge loss that our defense never recovered from. Our offense was abysmal but our defense wasn't much better and they showed it every chance they got.

Steve