OT: sorta... steriods

[clif]

I know this is the Cards forum, but not many people post in the Diamondbacks forum.

I wanted to ask.. Am I the only one that really doesn't have a problem with players taking steriods?


I know it is illegal... I know it is stupid health wise, but with all the other "legal" enhancers out there... does it really make that big of a performance difference?

Consider that with all the medical advances where athletes are repaired and come back faster than ever before.. isn't that an unfair advantage to those players of the past?

 

[Russ Smith]

My problem with steroids is that if we tolerate pros taking it, then it sort of implies to kids that it's ok and there's a lot of evidence that it's MUCH more dangerous for kids.

As for is it that significant, look at Ben Johnson pre and post steroid, never came close after. Look at others. hell I contend Marion Jones is getting unfairly blasted because all the before and after comparisons ignore that she had a baby in that timeframe and maybe THAT is why she's slower now? But even in her case she's not nearly the sprinter now she was before so it makes you wonder.

I just think it becomes a problem where guys are just out of control with it (david Boston) and you don't want to create a situation where kids are idolizing guys and taking steroids because their favorite player is.

I also would like to think the best athlete and not the guy with the best scientists wins the race.

 

[Scott MS]

Unfortunately, it's the hot issue of the day for Congress. They would rather chase down a few millionaire sports figures on steroids use than worry about the many other things that are killing Americans in greater numbers like cancer, diabets, alzheimers, etc. Here's the list:

Heart Disease 237:100
Cancer 112:100
Stroke 119:100
Chronic Obstruction Pulmonary Disease 115:100
Accidents 196:100
Pneumonia 157:100
Diabetes 116:100
HIV 551:100
Suicide 422:100
Homicide 336:100


No, let's go after steroids!!

 

[clif]

My problem with steroids is that if we tolerate pros taking it, then it sort of implies to kids that it's ok and there's a lot of evidence that it's MUCH more dangerous for kids.

As for is it that significant, look at Ben Johnson pre and post steroid, never came close after. Look at others. hell I contend Marion Jones is getting unfairly blasted because all the before and after comparisons ignore that she had a baby in that timeframe and maybe THAT is why she's slower now? But even in her case she's not nearly the sprinter now she was before so it makes you wonder.

I just think it becomes a problem where guys are just out of control with it (david Boston) and you don't want to create a situation where kids are idolizing guys and taking steroids because their favorite player is.

I also would like to think the best athlete and not the guy with the best scientists wins the race.

I completely agree with that. My point goes more to say that if 2 athletes are competing and one takes creatine and one takes steriods.. how can someone say one is ok and the other is a black mark on the game?

They both have their advantages, and both were not available to athletes 30 years ago or so. Why is one such a hot button. (other than the kids)

 

[kerouac9]

If you're talking about putting players in historical perspective, then how can you advocate steroids? It should be the players talent, not their pharmacist, that's measured.

The message to the kids is secondary to me to the integrity of the game (but I don't have kids yet, so there's that). If legal supplements are the problem, then ban more of them.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

As for is it that significant, look at Ben Johnson pre and post steroid, never came close after.

Luis Gonzalez...Sammy Sosa...

 

[kerouac9]

Luis Gonzalez...

Shhhh.....

 

[Renz]

Luis Gonzalez...Sammy Sosa...

Don't forget the poster boy, Brady Anderson.

 

[bankybruce]

Unfortunately, it's the hot issue of the day for Congress. They would rather chase down a few millionaire sports figures on steroids use than worry about the many other things that are killing Americans in greater numbers like cancer, diabets, alzheimers, etc. Here's the list:

Heart Disease 237:100
Cancer 112:100
Stroke 119:100
Chronic Obstruction Pulmonary Disease 115:100
Accidents 196:100
Pneumonia 157:100
Diabetes 116:100
HIV 551:100
Suicide 422:100
Homicide 336:100


No, let's go after steroids!!

The problem is if you let the role model athletes do it like Palmaro, then kids start and can you imagine in 15 years how many adults would be on them and how it would affect your list.

 

[joeshmo]

I completely agree with that. My point goes more to say that if 2 athletes are competing and one takes creatine and one takes steriods.. how can someone say one is ok and the other is a black mark on the game?

Hold on there.

Creatine and Steriods/HGH cannot even be compared to each other in their effects, or overall strength of their effects.

Apples and oranges.

 

[clif]

If you're talking about putting players in historical perspective, then how can you advocate steroids? It should be the players talent, not their pharmacist, that's measured.

The message to the kids is secondary to me to the integrity of the game (but I don't have kids yet, so there's that). If legal supplements are the problem, then ban more of them.

Let me be clear.. I DO NOT ADVOCATE STERIODS

Now.. with that cleared up. I guess my deal would be that all performance enhancing substances be banned, because I just don't see how you can take all of these others and it be considered a level playing field.

 

[clif]

Hold on there.

Creatine and Steriods/HGH cannot even be compared to each other in their effects, or overall strength of their effects.

Apples and oranges.

How so. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they both work in the respect that they aid the body in recovery time? I know Creatine does, but I believe steriods does the same thing where you still obviously have to work out and eat right.

Please tell me in general where the major differences are.. (in performance)

 

[kerouac9]

Let me be clear.. I DO NOT ADVOCATE STERIODS

Now.. with that cleared up. I guess my deal would be that all performance enhancing substances be banned, because I just don't see how you can take all of these others and it be considered a level playing field.

Isn't creatine banned in the NFL? I think it is. The NFL PES list is long and specific...

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Don't forget the poster boy, Brady Anderson.

I thought the poster boy was Bret Boone?

 

[Russ Smith]

Let me be clear.. I DO NOT ADVOCATE STERIODS

Now.. with that cleared up. I guess my deal would be that all performance enhancing substances be banned, because I just don't see how you can take all of these others and it be considered a level playing field.

Technically they are, most sports ban performance enhancing drugs period. The problem is defining them. Balcos' stuff was perfectly legal at the time because baseball and football didn't know "the clear" existed. It becomes very stickly legally to ban substances you don't know about because it becomes tough to define what is performance enhancing and what's not.

 

[joeshmo]

How so. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they both work in the respect that they aid the body in recovery time? I know Creatine does, but I believe steriods does the same thing where you still obviously have to work out and eat right.

Please tell me in general where the major differences are.. (in performance)

First of all we naturally create creatine in our bodies and it is on many of the foods we eat today. It is a naturally occuring chemical compound.

Most 99% of steriods and other perfomance enhancing drugs are not natural occuring in our bodies.

Steriods are a different story, because they are man made substances.

Their is also the issue of overall strength and side effects of the 2. Let me put it this way, Creatine is a wine cooler compared to the jagermeister Steriods.

 

[kerouac9]

I just hope that the Cards start blood doping before the Mexico City game. The one performance-enhancer that I don't mind, because it doesn't help you in sports that count.

 

[Scott MS]

The problem is if you let the role model athletes do it like Palmaro, then kids start and can you imagine in 15 years how many adults would be on them and how it would affect your list.

I guess my point is that there are bigger fish to go after. I have a 10 year old kid. Personally I'm more worried about substances like meth and pot, than steroids.

I think more high school football players die in the heat each summer than professional athletes die each year from steroids.

 

[cards 24-7-365]

First of all we naturally create creatine in our bodies and it is on many of the foods we eat today. It is a naturally occuring chemical compound.

Most 99% of steriods and other perfomance enhancing drugs are not natural occuring in our bodies.

Steriods are a different story, because they are man made substances.

Their is also the issue of overall strength and side effects of the 2. Let me put it this way, Creatine is a wine cooler compared to the jagermeister Steriods.

Testosterone is also a naturally occuring compound that is produced by the body. Obviously not in the level that are used when injected or swallowed.

I agree that steroids can have harmful side effects. I also believe that if you educate yourself about safe dosage levels and take precautions to minimze side effects that steroids can be used safely with minimal side effects.

The problem steroids is that many see them as a magic pill/injection. You can not just take steroids get bigger and become a better athlete. I think that is where young athletes go wrong. They go to Mexico and get "steroids" with no clue as to the different effects of different steroids and the precautions that should be taken when using steroids. And they get the bad side effects - gynocomastia, testicular shrinkage, acne, balding, possibly bouts of rage and most severely depression when going "off cycle".

I also get annoyed with Congress getting involved with this - give me a break. Drinking alcohol and smoking are much more harmful than steroids. Heck, eating fast food 5 times a week is worse for your body than a carefully planned and executed cycle of steroids.

Sorry for the rant, just a pet peeve of mine. No, I don't (never have) used steroids.

 

[cards 24-7-365]

I completely agree with that. My point goes more to say that if 2 athletes are competing and one takes creatine and one takes steriods.. how can someone say one is ok and the other is a black mark on the game?

They both have their advantages, and both were not available to athletes 30 years ago or so. Why is one such a hot button. (other than the kids)

If you eat beef, you take creatine. If you take a daily multi-viatmin, you take supplements. If you drink milk, you take supplements (milk is fortified with vitamins). If you eat alot of pasta the night before a game, you are supplementing your diet with something that you wouldn't normally take to improve your performance. If you drink coffee to kick off your morning, you are using a chemical that is not found in the body to improve your performance at work. If you eat oysters, ....... anyway, you get the picture. Where do you draw the line?

 

[Pariah]

I wanted to ask.. Am I the only one that really doesn't have a problem with players taking steriods?

I have a problem with it on many levels.

It ruins the integrity of the game.

It pressures those athletes who might not otherwise be inclined to wreck their body and prematurely end their lives with 'roids to take them to "keep up."

It influences kids.

...I'm sure there are more.

 

[clif]

It ruins the integrity of the game.
.

Ding.. Ding...Ding... !!! That statement right there is what bugs me. What does that mean!?


At one point steriods were NOT against the rules in baseball. They were NOT banned... so taking them CANNOT go against the integrity of the game, because the game didn't warrant it.

So for people to criticize players who were doing things that were NOT against the rules is kinda silly.

Now I understand that steriods are illegal..and that is what someone will probably say next...BUT.. if the sports world TRUELY had any integrity.. then they would turn these athletes in to the AUTHORITIES when they fail a drug test... afterall... it's ILLEGAL!!!

How can you just get suspended? Why do they need 3 strikes or whatever. You do it you pay! It's a crime!.. So the hypocrisy is really what gets me.

 

[Russ Smith]

I guess my point is that there are bigger fish to go after. I have a 10 year old kid. Personally I'm more worried about substances like meth and pot, than steroids.

I think more high school football players die in the heat each summer than professional athletes die each year from steroids.

it's true but I would be that usage of steroids by kids is rising faster than usage of meth? Not pot of course, that's pretty rampant among kids.

I was talking to my ex girlfriend's 14 year old son about possibly getting him into a speed training or personal trainer situation this next summer (he broke his wrist and may miss his entire freshman football season). He told me that he has to check with his coaches first because they have an approved list of gyms and a "Banned" list of gyms. The banned list is gyms where kids on HS teams have been given steroids by trainers and coaches found out! I kid you not, its' that prevalent that coaches are now having to tell their players which gyms to avoid working out in.

 

[Russ Smith]

Ding.. Ding...Ding... !!! That statement right there is what bugs me. What does that mean!?


At one point steriods were NOT against the rules in baseball. They were NOT banned... so taking them CANNOT go against the integrity of the game, because the game didn't warrant it.

here's an example of ruins the integrity. In 1988 Ben johnson was stripped of a gold medal because he tested positive for steroids. ben was villified, the medal went to Carl Lewis, and bronze medalist Linford Christie got the silver. There were 8 guys in the race that day and 5 of them tested positive for steroids at some point following that race(5 counting Johnson himself who failed more tests after the Olympics).

Then there's the Wade Exum stuff, he was the director of drug control for the US Olympic Committee for 10 years and after losing his job he came out and claimed that there were TONS of positive tests of US athletes that were covered up over the years. the us claimed he lied because he was bitter over losing his job, easy way to deny his claims.

He said there was a safe from the 84 olympics that contained evidence of covered up tests and samples that included positive tests by Flo Jo among many US athletes. then he explained that in the 88 Olympic trials, Carl Lewis tested positive for THREE banned supplements(pseudo ephedrine and other similar things) and that was covered up. So that makes SIX of the 8 guys in that race dirty if we believe Exum.

So at some point as Pariah said the whole integrity is shot. Sure Ben Johnson was disgraced but shouldn't Lewis have been stripped of HIS gold medal after Exum's disclosure? Shouldn't Christie have lost his silver, he actually was banned for steroid use. So we're left with no idea which of the great athletes we saw for the US in 84, 88 and 92 were clean, and which were on drugs.

Same thing with McGwire and Sosa and what if Bonds breaks Aaron's record, doesn't that possibility almost make you ill knowing what we now know about Bonds?

That's why the whole Lance ARmstrong stuff bugs me so much, like Lewis he's been an outspoken critic of drug use accusing competitors of doping for years. so the revelation that his urine in 1999 contained EPO, a banned substance sure does make you question HIS integrity, or at least is does with me.

 

[cards 24-7-365]

It pressures those athletes who might not otherwise be inclined to wreck their body and prematurely end their lives with 'roids to take them to "keep up."

It influences kids.

Russ, I agree with your feeling on the Ben Johnson thing and the Lance Armstrong situation but I think the quote above by Pariah sums it up the best.

That said, Ben Johnson's coach - Charlie Francis believes that Ben was framed because he tested positive for stanolozol (brand name winstrol - Raffy's drug of choice) which according to Francis Ben was not using. He admits that Ben was using steroids, just not the one he tested positive for. After the olympics Bens "B" sample tested with a higher level of steroids in it than the "A" sample which was taken at the same time - So Francis thinks the second sample was tampered with. I had not heard the story about all the cover up positive tests from the 80's olympics but it seems corruption may have been rampant.

That said it really makes you wonder how much is covered up in baseball and even football. I mean what would the NFL do if their poster boy Peyton Manning tested positive for something - would they cover it up? Baseball sure turned a blind eye on steroid use by the "poster children" of the game in the 90's - it was obvious that buys like McGwire and Bonds were juicing.

I agree it does ruin the integrity of the game.