Our Defense is not really much better...

[Cheesebeef]

Nashs turnovers/48mins have increased gradually by 0.7 per 48 mins over the last 5 years, and only by 0.3 since his last mvp. His assists have gone down int he Porter/shaq offense to a 2.15:1 A/TO ratio(from 3-3.8). But then, Hills and Diaws assist/TO ratios have also tanked in the porter system. Shaq has more TO's/48 this year than all but 5 NBA centers, guys like bogut, Hilton armstrong, marc Gasol(rookie). Some times you have to look at the numbers more closely, eyeballing can lead to bad judgement in the numbers eval.

is minutes played an accurate number by which to judge turnovers this year though considering that we play at a much slower pace? Is there some kind of turnover/# of possession rate that we could look at previous year's versus this year that might tell us why it seems like Nash is turning the ball over more?

 

[nowagimp]

is minutes played an accurate number by which to judge turnovers this year though considering that we play at a much slower pace? Is there some kind of turnover/# of possession rate that we could look at previous year's versus this year that might tell us why it seems like Nash is turning the ball over more?

Yep the slow pace means the turnovers per possession is up. thing is, Hill, Diaw and shaq are also having near career years for turning the ball over/48mins. My bet is that per possession, these guys ARE turning it over more than ever. The turnover stink is not limited to nash, almost the whole team is having career worst turnover/poss percentages.

And all this dropoff for what, a mediocre defense?

 

[Covert Rain]

Nashs turnovers/48mins have increased gradually by 0.7 per 48 mins over the last 5 years, and only by 0.3 since his last mvp. His assists have gone down int he Porter/shaq offense to a 2.15:1 A/TO ratio(from 3-3.8). But then, Hills and Diaws assist/TO ratios have also tanked in the porter system. Shaq has more TO's/48 this year than all but 4 NBA centers, guys like bogut, Hilton armstrong, marc Gasol(rookie). Some times you have to look at the numbers more closely, eyeballing can lead to bad judgement in the numbers eval.

is minutes played an accurate number by which to judge turnovers this year though considering that we play at a much slower pace? Is there some kind of turnover/# of possession rate that we could look at previous year's versus this year that might tell us why it seems like Nash is turning the ball over more?

Here is something interesting. I looked up how many times Nash has had a game in which he had 5+ turnovers in a given game.

2007-2008
Nash had 27 games in which he had 5+ turnovers.
*9 (33%) of those instances were post Shaq trade. The bulk of his turnover ridden games came pre-Shaq.
**Looking at the same number of games pre Shaq, Steve had 10 instances of 5+ turnovers in a game over the same number of games. This is also in the D'Antoni system.


2008-2009
Nash has 4 games with 5+ turnovers.
*Through the 1st fourteen games of last season he already had 8. So, he is on a better pace so far this season in terms of games with 5+.

 

[nowagimp]

Here is something interesting. I looked up how many times Nash has had a game in which he had 5+ turnovers in a given game.

2007-2008
Nash had 27 games in which he had 5+ turnovers.
*9 (33%) of those instances were post Shaq trade. The bulk of his turnover ridden games came pre-Shaq.
**Looking at the same number of games pre Shaq, Steve had 10 instances of 5+ turnovers in a game over the same number of games. This is also in the D'Antoni system.


2008-2009
Nash has 4 games with 5+ turnovers.
*Through the 1st fourteen games of last season he already had 8. So, he is on a better pace so far this season in terms of games with 5+.

How about this stat for you:

the DA suns were 4th-9th best in the NBA in turnover differential. Last year they were 15th(w shaq for 30 games), and this year they are dead last 30th, owrse than the knicks and bobcats. Turnover differential is about steals and taking care of the ball, of course the this years suns do neither. Problem is all those esay baskets are now being scored by the other team.

 

[nowagimp]

Here is something interesting. I looked up how many times Nash has had a game in which he had 5+ turnovers in a given game.

2007-2008
Nash had 27 games in which he had 5+ turnovers.
*9 (33%) of those instances were post Shaq trade. The bulk of his turnover ridden games came pre-Shaq.
**Looking at the same number of games pre Shaq, Steve had 10 instances of 5+ turnovers in a game over the same number of games. This is also in the D'Antoni system.

You might remember when adding new pieces To's go up, nash had a rash of big turnover games the year Diaw and KT came aboard, and he won MVP that year. This year, the offense is frequently not run through Nash, he cant take the credit for amare, shaq, diaw, and hill all averaging more than 3.3 TO's/48 minutes.

 

[mojorizen7]

Nashs turnovers/48mins have increased gradually by 0.7 per 48 mins over the last 5 years, and only by 0.3 since his last mvp. His assists have gone down int he Porter/shaq offense to a 2.15:1 A/TO ratio(from 3-3.8). But then, Hills and Diaws assist/TO ratios have also tanked in the porter system. Shaq has more TO's/48 this year than all but 4 NBA centers, guys like bogut, Hilton armstrong, marc Gasol(rookie). Some times you have to look at the numbers more closely, eyeballing can lead to bad judgement in the numbers eval.

This statement can go either way.
"Sometimes you have to eyeball the games more closely,evaluating numbers can lead to bad judgement."

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

What we really need to do to reduce turnovers is improve our spacing. If you move shaq out of the lineup and put amare at center, the paint would be much more friendly to Nash's game.

Maybe we could replace shaq with a new PF when we slide amare to the 5... but it would have to be a very unique specimen. Someone super athletic enough to play as an undersized 4, and also help us on the glass while at the same time be able to force their defender out to the 3 line due to a decent 3pt shot and the ability to slash to the basket fast enough for an uncontested alley oop.

However, since Amare's defensive inefficiencies are very prevalent at the center position, the new PF would also have to be a tenacious defender. Not only able to man up on defense and rebounding, but also excel in blocks AND steals.

On offense, we wont really need to run any plays for him, since the amare stat picknroll is the best play in the game. But the majority of our garbage points will have to be from the new PF, which is quite an odd combination from someone we are expecting to do so much for the team.

We have to be cautious though, as someone who may surprisingly fit all those characteristics would inevitably have a wild card issue that we would have to deal with. The utility and uniqueness he will bring to our gameplan will not be met with equal team or media respect, and he's not going to like that and it could be cause for future issues.

Where would we even find a player to fit that though? Pipedream, I know.

 

[French Fries]

What we really need to do to reduce turnovers is improve our spacing. If you move shaq out of the lineup and put amare at center, the paint would be much more friendly to Nash's game.

Maybe we could replace shaq with a new PF when we slide amare to the 5... but it would have to be a very unique specimen. Someone super athletic enough to play as an undersized 4, and also help us on the glass while at the same time be able to force their defender out to the 3 line due to a decent 3pt shot and the ability to slash to the basket fast enough for an uncontested alley oop.

However, since Amare's defensive inefficiencies are very prevalent at the center position, the new PF would also have to be a tenacious defender. Not only able to man up on defense and rebounding, but also excel in blocks AND steals.

On offense, we wont really need to run any plays for him, since the amare stat picknroll is the best play in the game. But the majority of our garbage points will have to be from the new PF, which is quite an odd combination from someone we are expecting to do so much for the team.

We have to be cautious though, as someone who may surprisingly fit all those characteristics would inevitably have a wild card issue that we would have to deal with. The utility and uniqueness he will bring to our gameplan will not be met with equal team or media respect, and he's not going to like that and it could be cause for future issues.

Where would we even find a player to fit that though? Pipedream, I know.

not sure if you're joking but i could swear this guy you're describing sounds like marion. from previous games results of both teams, the heat might like that trade(back). careful what you wish for, buddy, it might happen...

 

[Covert Rain]

You might remember when adding new pieces To's go up, nash had a rash of big turnover games the year Diaw and KT came aboard, and he won MVP that year. This year, the offense is frequently not run through Nash, he cant take the credit for amare, shaq, diaw, and hill all averaging more than 3.3 TO's/48 minutes.

No he can't and Shaq can't take credit for Steve's turnovers either. That's the point. I have heard more then once that Nash's turnovers are specifically related to Shaq's arrival. The stats say otherwise. Steve already had a problem before Shaq. Steve had more games with 5+ turnovers pre-Shaq then after last year. Steve is also on a better pace this year then last at this time in the season with 5+ tunover games. He had double that amount under D'Antoni last year through fourteen games. The conventional wisdom is that Porter's system is to blame this year.

In the end it all averages out for Steve though, especially when he has big assist nights. However, when the rest of the team is turnover prone too it just amplifies it. This entire team needs to get turnovers in check.

 

[nowagimp]

What we really need to do to reduce turnovers is improve our spacing. If you move shaq out of the lineup and put amare at center, the paint would be much more friendly to Nash's game.

Maybe we could replace shaq with a new PF when we slide amare to the 5... but it would have to be a very unique specimen. Someone super athletic enough to play as an undersized 4, and also help us on the glass while at the same time be able to force their defender out to the 3 line due to a decent 3pt shot and the ability to slash to the basket fast enough for an uncontested alley oop.

However, since Amare's defensive inefficiencies are very prevalent at the center position, the new PF would also have to be a tenacious defender. Not only able to man up on defense and rebounding, but also excel in blocks AND steals.

On offense, we wont really need to run any plays for him, since the amare stat pick n roll is the best play in the game. But the majority of our garbage points will have to be from the new PF, which is quite an odd combination from someone we are expecting to do so much for the team.

We have to be cautious though, as someone who may surprisingly fit all those characteristics would inevitably have a wild card issue that we would have to deal with. The utility and uniqueness he will bring to our gameplan will not be met with equal team or media respect, and he's not going to like that and it could be cause for future issues.

Where would we even find a player to fit that though? Pipedream, I know.

The spacing comment is right on, IMO. I am suprised that others havent figured it out, as many NBA insiders used it to question the shaq trade last year. The question is did shaq bring more than he set the team back? Amare is now seeing an incredibly packed lane, and a part of that is shaqs man, then there are the mediocre shooters. The perfect complement to amare might be 'sheed, a guy that commands a defender on the perimeter, but can still go down low ont he block and defend guys like Tim Duncan. The suns spacing for the pick and roll is about the worst I've ever seen in a competitive team, and that has a big impact on amare stoudemires effectiveness. The NBA has learned the suns deficiencies in player personnel and will pack the lane until the shooters punish them. Im not sure going inside out makes much sense when the lane is packed, it leads to lots of TO's trying to get the ball down there.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The spacing comment is right on, IMO. I am suprised that others havent figured it out, as many NBA insiders used it to question the shaq trade last year. The question is did shaq bring more than he set the team back? Amare is now seeing an incredibly packed lane, and a part of that is shaqs man, then there are the mediocre shooters. The perfect complement to amare might be 'sheed, a guy that commands a defender on the perimeter, but can still go down low ont he block and defend guys like Tim Duncan.

which is why the Suns were complete morons to ask for Sheed and Prince for Marion last summer.

man this FO is so full of buffoons it's not even funny.

 

[Covert Rain]

Maybe we could replace shaq with a new PF when we slide amare to the 5... but it would have to be a very unique specimen. Someone super athletic enough to play as an undersized 4, and also help us on the glass while at the same time be able to force their defender out to the 3 line due to a decent 3pt shot and the ability to slash to the basket fast enough for an uncontested alley oop.

However, since Amare's defensive inefficiencies are very prevalent at the center position, the new PF would also have to be a tenacious defender. Not only able to man up on defense and rebounding, but also excel in blocks AND steals.

Let's not go there. Amare never was and never will be a center. Sliding Amare back to Center would just mean more foul trouble, less defense from the Center spot. We have already been there, already done that and it doesn't work.

If you trade Shaq or make another trade it has to be for a legit center. The Amare playing Center experiment is done and over with. It won't work.

The spacing comment is right on, IMO. I am suprised that others havent figured it out, as many NBA insiders used it to question the shaq trade last year. The question is did shaq bring more than he set the team back? Amare is now seeing an incredibly packed lane, and a part of that is shaqs man, then there are the mediocre shooters. The perfect complement to amare might be 'sheed, a guy that commands a defender on the perimeter, but can still go down low ont he block and defend guys like Tim Duncan. The suns spacing for the pick and roll is about the worst I've ever seen in a competitive team, and that has a big impact on amare stoudemires effectiveness. The NBA has learned the suns deficiencies in player personnel and will pack the lane until the shooters punish them. Im not sure going inside out makes much sense when the lane is packed, it leads to lots of TO's trying to get the ball down there.

Funny how Shaq's past team had no problem with spacing with Shaq in there. The old Lakers team had a great inside out game. Shaq's mere presence is not what is causing the spacing problem. It's our offensive system that is the problem. It's the confusion on the players part when to clear the lane, when to cut and when to clear out. Inside out is the right way.....we just can't do it right.

 

[cly2tw]

Funny how Shaq's past team had no problem with spacing with Shaq in there. The old Lakers team had a great inside out game. Shaq's mere presence is not what is causing the spacing problem. It's our offensive system that is the problem. It's the confusion on the players part when to clear the lane, when to cut and when to clear out. Inside out is the right way.....we just can't do it right.

You are perfectly right. It really always amazes me how people just conveniently put it on Shaq. The optimal spacing required for DA's system hasn't brought us anything besides nice on-court shows. Good teams, particularly in playoff games, can take that space away to route the DA's Suns. Saying Shaq interrupt the spacing usually there for Nash and others is like saying we don't want to change the way we played under DA.

The alternative way of thought is that we have to accommodate and adapt to Shaq, and create spaces via Shaq not with him as obstacle on the court. And among the two, this way is the only one with a slim chance that we might turn the tide in the postseason and compete.

 

[nowagimp]

Funny how Shaq's past team had no problem with spacing with Shaq in there. The old Lakers team had a great inside out game. Shaq's mere presence is not what is causing the spacing problem. It's our offensive system that is the problem. It's the confusion on the players part when to clear the lane, when to cut and when to clear out. Inside out is the right way.....we just can't do it right.

The heat had james posey, DWade, Damon Jones, to get the spacing and when they were left open, they hit the shots. The heat also didnt have a PF who operates chiefly in the lane as their primary weapon. The fact that shaq cant hit the 12+ footer means his man is in the lane area. ANd if you havent noticed Matt Barnes and Hills man are not extending on defense. All you need to do is watch the number of defenders in the lane area, and how quick the double comes when guys try to dump the ball in the post.

 

[Covert Rain]

The heat had james posey, DWade, Damon Jones, to get the spacing and when they were left open, they hit the shots. The heat also didnt have a PF who operates chiefly in the lane as their primary weapon. The fact that shaq cant hit the 12+ footer means his man is in the lane area. ANd if you havent noticed Matt Barnes and Hills man are not extending on defense. All you need to do is watch the number of defenders in the lane area, and how quick the double comes when guys try to dump the ball in the post.

And that is exactly my point. Shaq is not causing our spacing problems. Having the correct personel around Shaq and Amare is. This team is made up of guys playing inconsistant and confused on the perimeter. Shaq and Amare can dominate the paint all day. If they don't have the right supporting cast, it doesn't matter.

 

[DeAnna]

So ... let's recap, shall we?

A) The team is not better defensively, even tho this coaching staff is preaching and practicing defense. Ergo, we must have bad defensive players. BTW, I haven't seen much defense from Shaq. He just bludgeons people when they come into the lane and that's pretty much it.

B) Sounds like some people are saying we should build this team around Shaq? Did I read that right, LoL?

C) Most turnovers come when they try to get the ball into Shaq in the post (3 consecutive ones vs. Miami). So apparently they haven't learned the inside/out game since they can't even get the ball IN.

D) Less possessions, more turnovers. Ergo, higher turnover ratio.

Does this pretty much summarizes their woes?

 

[msdundee]

PHOENIX (Reuters) - Phoenix Suns newly acquired center Shaquille O'Neal said Thursday he expects no special treatment from his team mates.
"I just want to fit in," the 14-times All-Star told a news conference. "I want to do my part.

http://www.reuters.com/article/sportsNews/idUSN0763091520080207

Sounded really promising last February. That was back when he talked about "igniting the fast break" with passes after rebounds, making Amare his personal project, and nudging "a damn good team" over the hump, which was the original plan and a good one. Fast forward to this season, when he made a comment about more touches, etc., and in a recent game Shaq jumped off the bench and HE told Porter he was "going in" (which he did)--making it pretty clear he's put himself in charge and one notch above the head coach, not a good move at all at this point.

It's really hard to understand why somewhere along the line there was a 180 turnaround to Plan B and the focus switched from (A) Shaq fitting in, to (B) the rest of the team adapting to Shaq--and apparently with the approval of management. In the first place, that's asking way too much of the team, and in the second place, it's unwarranted because an inconsistent, take-20-games-off Shaq isn't taking the Suns anywhere they haven't been before.

 

[elindholm]

It's really hard to understand why somewhere along the line there was a 180 turnaround to Plan B and the focus switched from (A) Shaq fitting in, to (B) the rest of the team adapting to Shaq--and apparently with the approval of management. In the first place, that's asking way too much of the team, and in the second place, it's unwarranted because an inconsistent, take-20-games-off Shaq isn't taking the Suns anywhere they haven't been before.

This is very well put, and I blame Kerr. I think Kerr's initial spin that O'Neal would "fit in" was lip service, designed to appease D'Antoni and Nash and maybe, if all went well, put together a deep playoff run right away. But Kerr has gambled his reputation on whether O'Neal is still a franchise center, and so now he has no choice other than to prove that he is. Porter is an accessory to this fraud, with apparently no offensive imagination whatsoever and a completely deaf ear to what the current All-Star talent on his roster is telling him.

This is all about Kerr trying to show that he's smarter than everyone else.

 

[mojorizen7]

This is very well put, and I blame Kerr. I think Kerr's initial spin that O'Neal would "fit in" was lip service, designed to appease D'Antoni and Nash and maybe, if all went well, put together a deep playoff run right away. But Kerr has gambled his reputation on whether O'Neal is still a franchise center, and so now he has no choice other than to prove that he is. Porter is an accessory to this fraud, with apparently no offensive imagination whatsoever and a completely deaf ear to what the current All-Star talent on his roster is telling him.

This is all about Kerr trying to show that he's smarter than everyone else.

Put me in charge.

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My first move as GM/Head coach would be to hand out bad moustaches & grab-n-go size Pringles to the fans at the door at all the SUNS home games vs the KNICKS.(All one)

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

My previous post was a joke, folks. Glad some of you caught it.

We need to reflect on what we're complaining about, because its the same thing as we just traded away from.

 

[msdundee]

My previous post was a joke, folks. Glad some of you caught it.

We need to reflect on what we're complaining about, because its the same thing as we just traded away from.

We caught it. There is definitely a brighter side, though. Thank God we probably won't have to slog through another long season of just winning a lot and suffering through all that entertainment. We only have to wait another five months for the playoffs when Shaq will be rested, there are no B2Bs, nobody will disappear, and the Suns should run the table.