Overall, we've had a good offseason. Right Kerr/Sarver bashers?

[HooverDam]

Simple logic says that their goals were met for the offseason. Isn't that the argument? The argument isn't about how these players are going to do during the regular season. Right now, the Suns believe they will ALL be impact players. That meets THEIR goals. Maybe not YOUR goals, or mine, but it certainly meets theirs. How can you dispute that?

No, thats not the argument at all. The argument is whether the Suns deserve something closer to an "A" grade for the offseason or something closer to a "C" grade. Those of us who believe they've filled two of their 3 need positions with unproven guys, and wiffed on a few of their goals (moving up in the draft, getting a vet PG, getting another 1st rounder, etc) give them a C. Those who think any body that happens to fill one of the Suns positions of needs give them an A.

It comes down to how hard you grade and what you expect out of the team. Though if I did bother to adjust for the competency of Steve Kerr and Robert Sarver, perhaps they do deserve an A. This offseason was a gem compared to their previous work.

 

[Andrew]

Although my opinion is widely not appreciated here, I think we had a good offseason.

 

[Chaplin]

No, thats not the argument at all. The argument is whether the Suns deserve something closer to an "A" grade for the offseason or something closer to a "C" grade. Those of us who believe they've filled two of their 3 need positions with unproven guys, and wiffed on a few of their goals (moving up in the draft, getting a vet PG, getting another 1st rounder, etc) give them a C. Those who think any body that happens to fill one of the Suns positions of needs give them an A.

Why is it that if someone disagrees with you, you and your brethren need to get insulting? People disagree, your whole "any body" comment is completely out of line, along with most of what many on this thread have been saying. I see that none of the pro-offseason people insulting the anti-offseason crowd, but hey, it certainly isn't vice versa.

It comes down to how hard you grade and what you expect out of the team.

Agreed, but why does that make it ok to get insulting?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Why is it that if someone disagrees with you, you and your brethren need to get insulting? People disagree, your whole "any body" comment is completely out of line, along with most of what many on this thread have been saying. I see that none of the pro-offseason people insulting the anti-offseason crowd, but hey, it certainly isn't vice versa.

Agreed, but why does that make it ok to get insulting?

you don't think george's post geared at me and gimp was antagonistic? really?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

according to your logic if the suns signed me to play backup center b/c i have girth, cheese to play backup pg b/c he can shoot and pass, and elindholm (yeeeah, i'm draggin you in this) to play backup sf because he can breath . . . you would have considered them to have acheived their goals and they get an A for "successful creation of their plan for 08/09. they would have "achieved everything they set out to do." it doesn't matter how well they acheived their goals, just that they did. that's pass/fail man, not grading on a scale.

hey chap, i'm quoting myself here 'cuz i want you to address this. if the suns thought these moves above met their goals, you'd consider that an "A" for the offseason?

 

[BC867]

Not to mention I feel the Suns downgraded in the coaching department which I haven't seen brought up (for the record I thought Terry was the best available coach after D'Antoni left but still think he's a step backwards).

You've got to explain that one. Here goes the again.

Replacing a Coach who announced that it's not his job to develop young players; who referred to defense as a joke; who wore his team out by playing only 7 deep; who wore down Steve Nash; who neutralized Amare by playing him out of position; etc.

He was the step backwards . . . or five steps backwards. A team favored to be a major Championship contender year after year, then bounced out of the playoffs year after year.

Don't forget that D'Antoni was reportedly not on the same wavelength as his GM -- the man who replace him as GM.

What are the reasons you consider Terry Porter a step backwards from D'Antoni, who was a spectacular game-to-game Head Coach?

There are many aspects to coaching. Mike D'Antoni was one-dimensional.

 

[SunsTzu]

What are the reasons you consider Terry Porter a step backwards from D'Antoni, who was a spectacular game-to-game Head Coach?

The best Porter coached team was a fringe playoff team in a pitiful conference.

What young talent did D'Antoni fail to develop? The Sausage King, Lampe, Casey Jacobsen, Steven Hunter, Zarko, Dijon Thompson, Marcus Banks Alando Tucker and DJ Strawberry? Jury is still out on last years rooks but I'd love to see anyone coach up the rest of that dung heap.

Diaw came in and became MIP his first year under D'Antoni(he has since regressed but it's not like the coaching changed). Barbosa developed into 6th man of the year. Amare was averaging 14ppg to start his 2nd year and after returning from injury and playing wit ha coaching change he averaged close to 25ppg to end that season. Joe Johnson was the team whipping boy until Frank Johnson was canned(people always point to the Marbury trade as JJ's breakout but he was playing consistantly well the weeks leading up to the trade after D'Antoni took over).

Seems like D'Antoni did pretty well with the guys with talent.

As far as contending there was only 1 year the Suns were a legit contender(I can't fathom how anyone thought the teams that lost JJ and Amare were contenders) and they were neck and neck with the Spurs until the suspensions. Last years team was no contender, except to the people who wrote off what KT brought to the team and thought Skinner was just as good.

 

[nowagimp]

I guess I disagree with "what counts". To me what counts is how the offseason moves help the team on the court.

Apparently this does not count for some posters like chap, as he like to define it in a way that leads to a successful offseason interpretation.

this fan cares about improvements in the teams competitiveness, not the meeting of managements self ascribed goals. they started out saying they wanted an NBA ready wing defender with a potent 3pt shot, namely brandon rush. Now, after that pick was taken already, they "wanted robin all along". they also really didnt want veteran PG backup, I suppose. With all those smoke screens, its hard to figure what they really wanted. i am not against the lopez pick, just not to excited about it. He may not be as good as skinner this year, but I expect he will be better than skinner in the future. Dragic? Now theres a big IF. Will he be the next manu? Or will he take 4 years to develop into a passable PG. If he is "all that", kudos to the suns scouts for finding him and management for getting him signed. Barnes is definitely a good addition, beats straw or tucker off the bench by alot.

 

[Chaplin]

hey chap, i'm quoting myself here 'cuz i want you to address this. if the suns thought these moves above met their goals, you'd consider that an "A" for the offseason?

I didn't reply because you analogy is simplistic and absurd. And you know it. I understand where you are coming from and while I might not disagree with you, there's not a lot I can say to make you change your mind.

 

[Chaplin]

Apparently this does not count for some posters like chap, as he like to define it in a way that leads to a successful offseason interpretation.

this fan cares about improvements in the teams competitiveness, not the meeting of managements self ascribed goals. they started out saying they wanted an NBA ready wing defender with a potent 3pt shot, namely brandon rush. Now, after that pick was taken already, they "wanted robin all along". they also really didnt want veteran PG backup, I suppose. With all those smoke screens, its hard to figure what they really wanted. i am not against the lopez pick, just not to excited about it. He may not be as good as skinner this year, but I expect he will be better than skinner in the future. Dragic? Now theres a big IF. Will he be the next manu? Or will he take 4 years to develop into a passable PG. If he is "all that", kudos to the suns scouts for finding him and management for getting him signed. Barnes is definitely a good addition, beats straw or tucker off the bench by alot.

No, I like to have an opinion that isn't degraded with insults by those with alternate viewpoints, which really are just as valid as mine. All you people that are saying that our offseason has sucked have 100% valid points--your looking at more of a big picture view of things, while I like to think I'm looking at the "right here, right now" view of things. Again, one side is just as valid as the other.

 

[nowagimp]

You've got to explain that one. Here goes the again.

Replacing a Coach who announced that it's not his job to develop young players; who referred to defense as a joke; who wore his team out by playing only 7 deep; who wore down Steve Nash; who neutralized Amare by playing him out of position; etc.

He was the step backwards . . . or five steps backwards. A team favored to be a major Championship contender year after year, then bounced out of the playoffs year after year.

Don't forget that D'Antoni was reportedly not on the same wavelength as his GM -- the man who replace him as GM.

What are the reasons you consider Terry Porter a step backwards from D'Antoni, who was a spectacular game-to-game Head Coach?

There are many aspects to coaching. Mike D'Antoni was one-dimensional.

if I had a few irish car bombs, I might be able to see your points, but sober, its kind of tough to say porter(71-93 career 43.3%) is a better coach than DA. I'll bet if you were to poll NBA GM's about this they would laugh in your face at your assertions.

 

[nowagimp]

The best Porter coached team was a fringe playoff team in a pitiful conference.

Yeah his boys were booted in the first round in the Eastern Conference the only year they qualified. Porter may end up learning to be a great coach, but there is no evidence to say he is that now.

 

[Chaplin]

Yeah his boys were booted in the first round in the Eastern Conference the only year they qualified. Porter may end up learning to be a great coach, but there is no evidence to say he is that now.

I agree that DA has proven to be a better coach so far, but Porter did take a team that probably had no right to be in the playoffs that year. You gotta give him props for that.

 

[nowagimp]

I agree that DA has proven to be a better coach so far, but Porter did take a team that probably had no right to be in the playoffs that year. You gotta give him props for that.

Mike Woodson with the hawks has proven more than Porter. Who thought the hawks would take the NBA champs to 7 games?

 

[SunsTzu]

I agree that DA has proven to be a better coach so far, but Porter did take a team that probably had no right to be in the playoffs that year. You gotta give him props for that.

I do. I like Porter and like I said thought he was the best available coach(after D'Antoni left). I just don't think he's as good as D'Antoni(though I do agree it was probably time for he and the team to split ways). But when you replace a better coach with a weaker coach I think it should be taken into account when evaluating a "good" offseason.

I'll bet if you were to poll NBA GM's about this they would laugh in your face at your assertions.

Well both were available and D'Antoni certainly seemed to get more intrest from GMs who had a coaching position to fill.

 

[shazaam6]

D'Antoni is the stubborn one on his back.


Porter is an improvement.

 

[Irish]

i vote . . . LEMMING!

I wonder why Chap thought that was insulting?

 

[Covert Rain]

My point is that you should be able to judge the offseason before they prove it on the court. Let say that the Suns somehow convince the Cavs to trade LeBron James. Wouldn't that make it a great offseason? Let's then say that he breaks his leg in the first preseason game. The offseason should still be considered a success.

Hindsight is 20/20. Anyone can do it.

Situation is not even comparable. You know what your going to get in Lebron. He is a tier 1 player. There is no doubt what he would bring to the table. Comparing a signing of a player where you know what your getting to someone with no NBA experience is not a good analogy.

If we signed 4 players in the offseason the equivalent of Sean Marks caliber (including some crappy backup PG), people would be skewering the Suns right now. There is not a person on this board that would be saying "A" or hey we got a backup PG so "goal met". According to that logic we should. On what planet would that be considered a successful offseason?

There is no way to judge if your offseason was a success until you see how those players perform. However, if you did sign players and you knew what you were getting I could buy people making a logical conclusion. For instance, if we had signed 4 players similar to Matt Barnes level and someone wanted to give the Suns an "A" or a "B", I could understand that. When 2 of the players your signing have zero NBA experience, that's when I don't understand an "A" or a "B". Let alone saying "goal met".

The Suns had offseason plans. Those plans may have been executed. However, their goal is to have players contribute (especially at the backup PG). Their goal is to win a title. There is no way to know if your going to meet either of those goals until the players play.

 

[shazaam6]

I wonder how much D'Antoni sympathizers attribute the awards these players got to coaching and how much to the players own abilities and mix with the other players.

Nash, All star, MVP
Stoudemire, Rookie of the year, All star, All NBA first team
Marion, All star, consistant 20/10
Diaw most improved player
Barbosa 6th man of the year
Bell All NBA defensive team
Hill Rookie of the year, All star
Shaq Rookie of the year, All star, MVP

How much credit goes to the coach if the coach says it is not his job to develope players?

 

[HooverDam]

, your whole "any body" comment is completely out of line,

How is that comment out of line? I really don't understand why you took offense to that comment. I didnt say people of that opinion were stupid, misinformed, dumb, etc etc. I'm sorry if I offended you, but no offense was meant, sometimes my hate for Kerr boils up and I do get frustrated at people defending him for what I think are crazy reasons.

 

[SunsTzu]

I wonder how much D'Antoni sympathizers attribute the awards these players got to coaching and how much to the players own abilities and mix with the other players.

Nash, All star, MVP
Stoudemire, Rookie of the year, All star, All NBA first team
Marion, All star, consistant 20/10
Diaw most improved player
Barbosa 6th man of the year
Bell All NBA defensive team
Hill Rookie of the year, All star
Shaq Rookie of the year, All star, MVP

How much credit goes to the coach if the coach says it is not his job to develope players?

It's pretty ridiculous you put past their peak players on there like Shaq and Hill on a list like that. I'm not even sure what you're trying to prove, that players talent/work eithic is the biggest determining factor on how good they'll be? I completely aggree with that.

I do think D'Antoni deserves some of the credit dor the Diaw MIP(guy did nothing until he played for D'Antoni, Barbosa 6th man(had his brother be Barbosa's personal coach) and Nash's MVP(Nash was an all-star before D'Antoni but the 2 of them together was the perfect storm for Nash to be vaulted to the NBA elite).

I'd be intrested in a list of players you feel D'Antoni failed to develope and a list of players you feel Proter developed.

 

[cly2tw]

The biggest achievement of the offseason is to get rid of DA. Given that, the rest of moves are logical so far and we will have to wait and see whether we have better chance to go deeper in the playoffs.

 

[shazaam6]

I think a monkey could do almost as good of a job of getting beat in the playoffs with this much talent around a guy like Nash as D'antoni did. Play your 7 best guys almost all of the time. No adjustments. Blame the bench being bad so you don't have a reason to practice because the other 7 players need rest. Convenient. Not practicing defense because it expends too much energy. Stupid. Players had to rely on their own to improve. They make tons of money why expend any extra energy or effort? Because a well coached team will overcome ability if they are close. We had the most talent but didn't live up to our ability because D'antoni used 7 or 8 guys to fight against 10 all year and when they broke down for whatever reason we had no options other than to play 6 or 7 guys.

I can hear it now "But D'antoni didn't have Dragic to rest Nash or Lopez to rest Shaq or Barnes to rest Hill."

I also think D'antoni didn't "coach" in his players best interests. Amare lacks fundamentals on defense, a big hole in his game. He was a rookie of the year before D'antoni arrived because he had an offensive game. Why was he focusing on 3 pointers last summer instead of defense? Coach should have said Amare you lack defense skill, your jumpshot is good enough now. Study this and work on it during the season.

Marion needed to add ball handling and mid range shooting to his game. His whole career.

Diaw you get to be Dirty Diaw if you dunk in someones face each game. Stop passing it out when you are a dribble away from the rim and throw it down whenever possible or you sit and since it looks like you might like to sit, you will be penalized in practice by running extra.

Barbosa stop avoiding contact when you drive to the rim. Watch videos of Diaw's buddy Tony Parker and jump sideways if you have to create contact and always fall down, that way we will get fouls on their big guys like Tim Duncan. On defense stop being such a sucker and just stay infront of your man. You are fast enough to make it tough for him beat you. They need to practice specific defensive skills.

Shaq isn't going to be effective 18 to 20 feet from the hoop.

Kerr had an idea,
Keep D'Antoni and add a defensive coach to this group and play about 10 guys each night and we would be better than last year. But had different plans for himself. And he got a raise, nothing wrong with that. I hope he is happy and I hope Porter teaches our guys defense.

BTW I view part of a coaches job to be like a trainer in boxing. You know ALL your players strengths and weaknesses and you work on improving each of them because you are only as good as your weakest link.

 

[mojorizen7]

I'm just bummed that i missed out on this....

 

[Irish]

I don't know if D'Antoni deserves all the stuff that gets dumped on him, but it was probably time to move on. There were signs that the team was tuning him out and that opponents were catching up with and countering his approach.

At the same time, I think the Suns needed somebody like Porter who was assistant head coach of a very good defensive team in the Pistons. In his two years there, they reduced opponent's shooting percentages both years.

2005-06 45.2%
2006-07 44.5% Porter's first year
2007-08 43.7%

We'll see if this carries over to the Suns, but he has had experience with some serious defense oriented coaches like Rlley and Pops.