Overall, we've had a good offseason. Right Kerr/Sarver bashers?

[Cheesewater]

You're intentionally setting up impossible scenarios for people arguing with you. How the heck are we supposed to know who the Suns received calls about? Or what deals the Suns nearly pulled the trigger on? You know damned well that we don't have that kind of information, so its hard to pinpoint specific players and say "the Suns should've gotten him." All we can do is look at past deals Steve Kerr has made (i.e. moving KT and TWO picks for nothing) and deduce that from his track record, he probably didn't act quickly or creatively enough.

Just pick a player for goodness sake. I'm not setting any impossible scenarios up. It is absolutely reasonable for me to ask "If you'd rather have a veteran back-up point guard than an untested rookie, who is it and can the Suns get him?" If anything I made it more specific. I wrote out the basic points to consider before choosing a veteran player's name. If it seems impossible to you to answer the question, maybe it's because there is no easy answer. Isn't that what an NBA GM has to face?

 

[Covert Rain]

Just pick a player for goodness sake. I'm not setting any impossible scenarios up. It is absolutely reasonable for me to ask "If you'd rather have a veteran back-up point guard than an untested rookie, who is it and can the Suns get him?"

Yes it is impossible because you have no idea who was being offered or if the Suns were willing to pay the price. If the Suns said no, that does not mean the player was unavailable. Since, we will never know what the Suns were or were not willing to give up, that is an impossible question. Plus there are players shopped all the time who's names you never hear because they are being shopped under the table. Teams deny it all the time.

Look no further then our own Shawn Marion. I am convinced he was being shopped well before his trade to Miami despite being "unavailable".

 

[HooverDam]

Just pick a player for goodness sake. I'm not setting any impossible scenarios up. It is absolutely reasonable for me to ask "If you'd rather have a veteran back-up point guard than an untested rookie, who is it and can the Suns get him?" If anything I made it more specific. I wrote out the basic points to consider before choosing a veteran player's name. If it seems impossible to you to answer the question, maybe it's because there is no easy answer. Isn't that what an NBA GM has to face?

I didn't say being a NBA GM is an easy job, if it was, Steve Kerr might be good at it.

Further, since when did the debate become 'veteran PG or untested rookie'? All along the Suns said they wanted to get a veteran PG and have Dragic be the #3 guy. Right? We all knew that was the case, they failed (so far) at making the happen? Would you agree thats an accurate assessment of the situation?

 

[Cheesewater]

I am sure they didn't. Despite rumors it appears that Suns were not as willing to get rid of Barbosa or Diaw as was being reported. Depending on which stories you believe. So if that is the case there were probably many trade scenarios not even considered.

You're sure, huh? Maybe nobody else wanted Barbosa or Diaw. Or maybe what was being reported was hogwash. Why should they consider wildly unlikely trade scenarios?

Again hind site. Pre-draft you had no clue who player X was, let alone if that player could play Skinners position. I can play the hind site game too. If Lopez was gone and Dragic was gone there was a huge drop off. Kerr even stated himself there was no other guard left of the board but Dragic at the time worth drafting. So, if those players were gone, this could have been tragic to say the least. So, if those players were gone and you can still say you honestly would have taken Player X over veterans.......wow.

You absolutely have a clue who player X is. You've got at least one guy doing nothing all year but watching draftable players. You've spent hours researching the draftees and sorting them, ordering them for your team's needs and allowing for all the draft order contingencies. Then when that is complete, you look at what veterans might be available for your needs. Then you decide what to do.

Plus, I didn't say TL versus Dragic was the reason. I said the reason is because I think the Suns could have made some moves to get some veteran guys in here who can play those same positions.

But wasn't Lue one of the veterans available? All I'm asking is who would you have been able to get?

To say lets give these guys an "A" for adding 2 untested pieces to team playing such crucial depth positions seems even more ludicrous. I agree these guys might be good future pieces. However, this team is trying to win the title this coming season.

Agreed. That's why I never said give them an "A".

 

[Covert Rain]

You're sure, huh? Maybe nobody else wanted Barbosa or Diaw. Or maybe what was being reported was hogwash. Why should they consider wildly unlikely trade scenarios?

And maybe somebody did. Again if the Suns said no, talks over. Just because the Suns might have said no does not make the trade wild. The Suns if they honestly believe in a player could have just simply been unwilling to part with them. It's a reasonable stance on the Suns part.

You absolutely have a clue who player X is. You've got at least one guy doing nothing all year but watching draftable players. You've spent hours researching the draftees and sorting them, ordering them for your team's needs and allowing for all the draft order contingencies. Then when that is complete, you look at what veterans might be available for your needs. Then you decide what to do.

Since many teams wait until the draft to decide who they are going to let go or trade, you would never have a complete list of possibilities. Many teams will wait to see what players they can get before deciding who is expendable.

But wasn't Lue one of the veterans available? All I'm asking is who would you have been able to get?

Yes but I am saying there were probably other guys out there that we were not aware of publicly who were available. It happens every single year. Again, if you are not willing to let certain players go, that list is probably dwindled. It's impossible to know.

Shawn Marion was available although being "unavailable". That scenario is not unique.

 

[Cheesewater]

Yes it is impossible because you have no idea who was being offered or if the Suns were willing to pay the price. If the Suns said no, that does not mean the player was unavailable. Since, we will never know what the Suns were or were not willing to give up, that is an impossible question. Plus there are players shopped all the time who's names you never hear because they are being shopped under the table. Teams deny it all the time.

You don't wait for someone to call you and offer their veteran big man. If you have a hole to fill, YOU make the calls. YOU make the offer. Then the other guy laughs and hangs up. There are a finite number of veteran guys in the NBA that you would take at any given position. It's not impossible. You can pick the guy you would have liked to see the Suns get, work out the numbers, but the other team has to be interested. And it has to be better than who you think might be available at #15.

 

[Covert Rain]

You don't wait for someone to call you and offer their veteran big man. If you have a hole to fill, YOU make the calls. YOU make the offer. Then the other guy laughs and hangs up. There are a finite number of veteran guys in the NBA that you would take at any given position. It's not impossible. You can pick the guy you would have liked to see the Suns get, work out the numbers, but the other team has to be interested. And it has to be better than who you think might be available at #15.

Why not? The Suns did with Miami. The Heat initiated that trade not the Suns. The Suns had interest in every big man in the NBA at the time. They obviously did not call for every team for their big man. In some cases I am sure these guys assume certain guys are not available and don't call. This would not be the first time a team with a player who was presumed unavailable initiated a trade.

Case in point, there are teams looking for a PG or PF. So even though the Suns probably get offers for Nash and Amare, I guarantee there are some teams with needs that don't bother because they figure they are unavailable.

 

[Cheesewater]

And maybe somebody did. Again if the Suns said no, talks over. Just because the Suns might have said no does not make the trade wild. The Suns if they honestly believe in a player could have just simply been unwilling to part with them. It's a reasonable stance on the Suns part.

Yes. Exactly. You don't want the Suns to give up too much, do you? What makes the trade wildly unlikely is the talent or cost imbalance.

Since many teams wait until the draft to decide who they are going to let go or trade, you would never have a complete list of possibilities. Many teams will wait to see what players they can get before deciding who is expendable.

So you have to make a decision. You go with all the possibilities you can muster. If before the draft the Suns called around about a veteran and got rebuffed, they had to make a pick in the draft. You do what I have been asking you to do. PICK A PLAYER. You pick the player. You make the call. The GM says "yes" or the GM says "no". You call around and find out who might be available and you tell them what you might be willing to offer. You make your wish list based on ALL the information. If you don't get what you want, you still have to make a pick.

Yes but I am saying there were probably other guys out there that we were not aware of publicly who were available. It happens every single year. Again, if you are not willing to let certain players go, that list is probably dwindled. It's impossible to know.

Shawn Marion was available although being "unavailable". That scenario is not unique.

You're talking about players who appear unavailable to the layman, right? Because as unavailable as the Suns may have said Marion was to Paul Coro (or whomever), you can bet every GM in the league knew Marion could be had. I'm not asking you to pick from a list of guys who were publicly available. I am asking you to pick a player the Suns should have inquired about before picking Robin Lopez and/or Goran Dragic. Anybody. Then, when you have picked them, consider whether or not the trade is feasible. It's quite easy. Apply the destination team yardstick last, even. Pick the perfect veteran guy, figure out what he will cost (both monetarily and in talent/position sacrifice) THEN ask yourself if the other team goes for it. And how worse you've gotten at another position because you traded one of your scorers.

OR..do you pick a rookie to plug in and all it costs you is his salary. It doesn't cost you any other players you actually still want or need. The veteran guy has to fit just right.

 

[HooverDam]

^So you want this to devolve into a trade idea thread? Why? We have a special trade forum for that where dozens of trades have been proposed and if you actually cared you could probably go see my thoughts (as well as Cheesebeefs or SteeleDogs) on those trades.

 

[Covert Rain]

Yes. Exactly. You don't want the Suns to give up too much, do you? What makes the trade wildly unlikely is the talent or cost imbalance.

No but trading Barbosa or Diaw for a legit player is worth it. It's not like you would have traded the guy for Sean Marks.

So you have to make a decision. You go with all the possibilities you can muster. If before the draft the Suns called around about a veteran and got rebuffed, they had to make a pick in the draft. You do what I have been asking you to do. PICK A PLAYER. You pick the player. You make the call. The GM says "yes" or the GM says "no". You call around and find out who might be available and you tell them what you might be willing to offer. You make your wish list based on ALL the information. If you don't get what you want, you still have to make a pick.

True. You still have to make a pick. However, the Suns have made moves before for veteran players and shunned the draft. This year was no exception if they wanted to do that. I don't think their PR department could have handled all the backlash though.

You're talking about players who appear unavailable to the layman, right? Because as unavailable as the Suns may have said Marion was to Paul Coro (or whomever), you can bet every GM in the league knew Marion could be had. I'm not asking you to pick from a list of guys who were publicly available. I am asking you to pick a player the Suns should have inquired about before picking Robin Lopez and/or Goran Dragic. Anybody. Then, when you have picked them, consider whether or not the trade is feasible. It's quite easy. Apply the destination team yardstick last, even. Pick the perfect veteran guy, figure out what he will cost (both monetarily and in talent/position sacrifice) THEN ask yourself if the other team goes for it. And how worse you've gotten at another position because you traded one of your scorers.

No. Shaq is a perfect example. Nobody knew the guy was available until Pat Riley called the Suns. Shaq is only one example. There are many examples over the years of guys being traded because the team holding the players rights made a call. It does not mean every GM in the league knew about it. Not all players are openly shopped in the NBA.

Again, if Kerr decided that Barbosa was too valuable to give up then he would just simply say he wasn't available. Talks dead. Discussions dead. Doesn't mean that player from another team was not available. You couldn't possibly know that.

For the sake of argument (applying to this season), I would take almost any veteran PG that was a free agent (with starting experience) over Dragic right now to back up Nash. Again Dragic to me is a "future" pick not a player that can help much now. I hope I am wrong.

OR..do you pick a rookie to plug in and all it costs you is his salary. It doesn't cost you any other players you actually still want or need. The veteran guy has to fit just right.

Depends. If I clear enough salary to get an impact guy or guy that I at least know what I am going to get in return....the Veteran. If tihs was purely about the Suns future and I felt they had no shot at a title....the Rookie.

 

[Cheesewater]

^So you want this to devolve into a trade idea thread? Why? We have a special trade forum for that where dozens of trades have been proposed and if you actually cared you could probably go see my thoughts (as well as Cheesebeefs or SteeleDogs) on those trades.

No. I'm just asking for a name. I want anyone who has professed a preference for a veteran in place of Lopez and/or Dragic to give me the name of the preferred veteran. That's all. I don't want the speculated terms of the trade. Just name a guy you think the Suns could have gotten. I have been asking for pages now. Again, I don't want details of a trade. Just the name. This is not an argument. I sincerely just want to know what veteran the Suns could have gotten to fill their need instead of Lopez and/or Dragic.

 

[HooverDam]

No. I'm just asking for a name. I want anyone who has professed a preference for a veteran in place of Lopez and/or Dragic to give me the name of the preferred veteran. That's all. I don't want the speculated terms of the trade. Just name a guy you think the Suns could have gotten. I have been asking for pages now. Again, I don't want details of a trade. Just the name. This is not an argument. I sincerely just want to know what veteran the Suns could have gotten to fill their need instead of Lopez and/or Dragic.

And you've been told repeatedly that its a stupid request because we have no idea of knowing what deals the Suns had on the table. We dont know what calls the Suns made, what calls they fielded, if they had offers for Diaw and LB or the details of those offers, etc. We don't know about the calls they took and made on draft night, that sort of stuff isn't made public knowledge.

You keep evading the main point: Did the Suns want to bring in a Veteran PG IN ADDITION (not instead of) Goran Dragic? If you think the answer is 'no', you're either lying or ignorant. If you admit that the answer is 'yes', then you must admit that (so far) the Suns have failed in that regard. So if the Suns completely and utterly failed at one of their offseason goals, how can they achieve an Above Average to Great rating for what they've accomplished?

 

[Covert Rain]

And you've been told repeatedly that its a stupid request because we have no idea of knowing what deals the Suns had on the table. We dont know what calls the Suns made, what calls they fielded, if they had offers for Diaw and LB or the details of those offers, etc. We don't know about the calls they took and made on draft night, that sort of stuff isn't made public knowledge.

You keep evading the main point: Did the Suns want to bring in a Veteran PG IN ADDITION (not instead of) Goran Dragic? If you think the answer is 'no', you're either lying or ignorant. If you admit that the answer is 'yes', then you must admit that (so far) the Suns have failed in that regard. So if the Suns completely and utterly failed at one of their offseason goals, how can they achieve an Above Average to Great rating for what they've accomplished?

And I believe I also said nearly any PG with starting experience in the NBA that was on the free agent list. I think that about covers it all.

 

[Cheesewater]

No but trading Barbosa or Diaw for a legit player is worth it. It's not like you would have traded the guy for Sean Marks.

Well now we're getting somewhere. Okay so you are offering Barbosa. Who is the legit player you want?

True. You still have to make a pick. However, the Suns have made moves before for veteran players and shunned the draft. This year was no exception if they wanted to do that. I don't think their PR department could have handled all the backlash though.

Indeed.

No. Shaq is a perfect example. Nobody knew the guy was available until Pat Riley called the Suns. Shaq is only one example. There are many examples over the years of guys being traded because the team holding the players rights made a call. It does not mean every GM in the league knew about it. Not all players are openly shopped in the NBA.

Of course there is a point at which a previously unavailable player becomes available. But if you have a need you make the calls to find out. You don't hem and haw and pick a rookie, then go "Awwww man. Shaq was available?" When you are planning to improve your team, you consider every possibility first. Then make the calls. Riley wanted Shaq out and looked around and found that Marion both fit a need and was available.
Done deal.

Again, if Kerr decided that Barbosa was too valuable to give up then he would just simply say he wasn't available. Talks dead. Discussions dead. Doesn't mean that player from another team was not available. You couldn't possibly know that.

No one is untouchable. If Ernie Grunfeld calls and says to Griffin or Kerr "We want Barbosa" you've got him on the phone...just ask "What are you giving up?" Especially if the Bullets...er...Wizards have a player you need. If Barbosa is unavailable, but the Orlando Magic call...you have that conversation don't you? Maybe they are offering up Dwight Howard.

For the sake of argument (applying to this season), I would take almost any veteran PG that was a free agent (with starting experience) over Dragic right now to back up Nash. Again Dragic to me is a "future" pick not a player that can help much now. I hope I am wrong.

Well I think we'll probably see a veteran PG join even still. This offseason that some have already graded isn't actually over yet. So I wouldn't take any of those veteran PGs INSTEAD of Dragic. But I'd like to add one to split time with Dragic, that's for sure. That said, Dragic has 5 years experience, technically as a pro....which is more to me than two years at IUPUI. What about Lopez' position? Is there a free agent center you'd have preferred to Lopez that you think the Suns could have gotten?

Depends. If I clear enough salary to get an impact guy or guy that I at least know what I am going to get in return....the Veteran. If tihs was purely about the Suns future and I felt they had no shot at a title....the Rookie.

I think the space between the skill level of the Veteran who could be had, and the potential of the unproven Rookie was really thin...worth the gamble.

 

[Cheesewater]

And you've been told repeatedly that its a stupid request because we have no idea of knowing what deals the Suns had on the table. We dont know what calls the Suns made, what calls they fielded, if they had offers for Diaw and LB or the details of those offers, etc. We don't know about the calls they took and made on draft night, that sort of stuff isn't made public knowledge.

I don't want the name of the guy you think the Suns were interested in. I don't want your speculation as to what might have gone down. I just want YOUR CHOICE. Man this is really not that hard. I think you are purposely not giving a name.

You keep evading the main point: Did the Suns want to bring in a Veteran PG IN ADDITION (not instead of) Goran Dragic? If you think the answer is 'no', you're either lying or ignorant. If you admit that the answer is 'yes', then you must admit that (so far) the Suns have failed in that regard. So if the Suns completely and utterly failed at one of their offseason goals, how can they achieve an Above Average to Great rating for what they've accomplished?

I think I addressed my thoughts on that way back at the beginning of my participation in this thread. I was laughing about how negative the view of the Suns offseason was simply because they only achieved 3 of 4 goals. I never addressed whether or not I thought the Suns were giving up on a veteran PG. If grades are given weekly until the offseason is over, then by all means feel free to give a C+. Arguing against a low grade is not the same as proclaiming a higher grade is deserved.

 

[Covert Rain]

Well now we're getting somewhere. Okay so you are offering Barbosa. Who is the legit player you want?

Have you called all the GM's in the NBA you to determine who is available? Because if you don't know I don't know. Maybe we should ask Kerr. Think he will take my call?

Of course there is a point at which a previously unavailable player becomes available. But if you have a need you make the calls to find out. You don't hem and haw and pick a rookie, then go "Awwww man. Shaq was available?" When you are planning to improve your team, you consider every possibility first. Then make the calls. Riley wanted Shaq out and looked around and found that Marion both fit a need and was available.
Done deal.

As I stated he is only one example. There have been others. Ofcourse you make calls.

No one is untouchable. If Ernie Grunfeld calls and says to Griffin or Kerr "We want Barbosa" you've got him on the phone...just ask "What are you giving up?" Especially if the Bullets...er...Wizards have a player you need. If Barbosa is unavailable, but the Orlando Magic call...you have that conversation don't you? Maybe they are offering up Dwight Howard.

Who said anything about untouchable? Just because you choose to not trade a player doesn't mean he is untouchable. It just means you don't want to trade that player at that given time.

Since we don't know who called Kerr, there is no telling what players were offered. So this is a moot point.

Well I think we'll probably see a veteran PG join even still. This offseason that some have already graded isn't actually over yet. So I wouldn't take any of those veteran PGs INSTEAD of Dragic. But I'd like to add one to split time with Dragic, that's for sure. That said, Dragic has 5 years experience, technically as a pro....which is more to me than two years at IUPUI. What about Lopez' position? Is there a free agent center you'd have preferred to Lopez that you think the Suns could have gotten?

Euro pro experience? Don't go there. In terms of a free agent center, I would have to look at the list again. I am not convinced Lopez is any better than Skinner at this point.

I think the space between the skill level of the Veteran who could be had, and the potential of the unproven Rookie was really thin...worth the gamble.

Worthy gamble maybe. However, I will still take a veteran PG over Dragic.

 

[elindholm]

Arguing against a low grade is not the same as proclaiming a higher grade is deserved.

It isn't? How can you argue that a low grade is unfair without implying that a higher grade would be more fair?

 

[shazaam6]

Cut to the chase... some of you wanted a trade. And in that trade you wanted to see Barbosa and/or Diaw included. Since they weren't traded you won't be satisfied with filling positions with draft picks. You believe in D'antoni's philosophy of taking a veteran over teaching a rookie or unproven(Dragic). Just admit it.

 

[shazaam6]

Another reason you wanted to trade Barbosa and or Diaw is because there is no money to sign these free agents until you free some up and Barbosa has value and a good contract. Diaw has a high dollar contract that would free up alot of money to sign free agents.

But we gave away KT with 2 draft picks to save money already so what is left? How do you give away Diaw and 9 million in a trade and not take on 9 million back?

Take on someone who has an expiring contract that you don't sign NEXT year. Trading Diaw for that weakens the team this year and you are gambling that you can get someone better later for Diaw's money.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Cut to the chase... some of you wanted a trade. And in that trade you wanted to see Barbosa and/or Diaw included. Since they weren't traded you won't be satisfied with filling positions with draft picks. You believe in D'antoni's philosophy of taking a veteran over teaching a rookie or unproven(Dragic). Just admit it.

We weren't going to get value, so what is the point of trading them. If it doesn't make the team better, there is no value in just offloading the salary if Sarver is willing to spend it.

We got younger, We got hustle players. We had a summer where we didn't dump assets for cash. I'm happy with that.

 

[HooverDam]

I just want YOUR CHOICE..

Why do you care? Again, the point you keep avoiding, I wanted the Suns to get a veteran PG AND sign Dragic. Thats not a lot to ask for, I really don't think it is. I'm not sure why you're so hung up on my backup PG preference. Do you want me to just write Tyronne Lue so that you can jump and scream something like "OH WELL THE SUNS COULDNT DO ANYTHING HE WENT TO MILWAUKEE!!!"

 

[Irish]

Why do you care? Again, the point you keep avoiding, I wanted the Suns to get a veteran PG AND sign Dragic. Thats not a lot to ask for, I really don't think it is. I'm not sure why you're so hung up on my backup PG preference. Do you want me to just write Tyronne Lue so that you can jump and scream something like "OH WELL THE SUNS COULDNT DO ANYTHING HE WENT TO MILWAUKEE!!!"

I too hoped the Suns would sign Lue. But I am not sure how much help he would be. He was the Hawks 3rd string PG and then the Mavs 3rd string PG. The Mavs barely played him.

Last season he averaged only 1.5 assists per game in 14.7 minutes. His career stats of 3.3 apg in 23.6 minutes does not suggest he's much of floor manager. What I liked about him is that he can shoot (career 38.9% for three and 45.3% last season) and play some defense.; but there are serious doubts that he's a real PG.
http://hoopshype.com/players/tyronn_lue.htm

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I seriously doubt the Suns goal was to just simply fill spots (like backup PG). The Suns have done that before (i.e. Marcus Banks). The very reason the Suns are still searching is because that goal was not met.

You don't sign someone to a 20M deal, to just simply fill roster spots. I can't believe you said that.

 

[Covert Rain]

You don't sign someone to a 20M deal, to just simply fill roster spots. I can't believe you said that.

I think your taking what I said out of context over several posts. My point was that you can't consider the Suns having met goals just because you sign a player for a certain position. The inference was that because the Suns signed a player to fill a need that means "goal met". That player has to perform for that goal to be considered met. We also signed Marcus Banks to a $21 million dollar contract. We didn't meet our goal of getting a backup PG or we wouldn't have drafted Dragic and traded Banks.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I think your taking what I said out of context. My point was that you can't consider the Suns having met goals just because you sign a player. That player has to perform.

We also signed Marcus Banks to more money then he was worth and looked how that turned out.

If you sign a player that meets your goals/needs, you should consider that a success.

Executing a plan (finding out your needs/goals and signing/drafting someone to meet them) is different than having the plan succeed. (players actually contribute on the court)