Pacers @ Suns Thursday game thread 12-19-2024

[Mainstreet]

I don’t debate that is a sunk cost, as you know, I think it was a sunk cost the moment the trade happened. But I don’t think the value we can send out will make any difference in six or seven years when this team might finally be able to compete again.

If the result of a fire sale is winning 10 to 15 games a year for the next five years and our return is a few piddly late draft picks, then I don’t care, I’d rather be some borderline play in team that prays to get lucky than deal with being the worst team in the NBA and seeing the reward of all that losing going to wolves controls our pick that year.

Among the many reasons I hated that trade is because we are locked into this disaster. I don’t see a way out that has any real benefit.

We are pretty much on the same page.

About all the Suns can do is gun the engines and hope there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Also, they need to change GMs stat. The Suns need a new cook.

 

[Mainstreet]

Teams typically copy the attitude of their best player. We are the Brooklyn Nets from 3-4 years ago. Lots of name brand talent and no results to show for it.

And yet, the Suns copied this product. It's hard to justify.

 

[Raindog]

We are pretty much on the same page.

About all the Suns can do is gun the engines and hope there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Also, they need to change GMs stat. The Suns need a new cook.

Agree about the GM. Jones is a clown at personnel decisions... and the worst kind, one that refuses to admit mistakes.

 

[Mainstreet]

I hope he's smart enough to see Jones for who he is at this point. He's given Jones enough leeway to do his job so there's no excuses left. Injuries only can be used once, IMO. Writing off more than one season due to injuries shows a miscalculation of the players by management. Coaching isn't an excuse as we've had 2 title winning coaches and 1 highly touted former Coach of the Year who led the team to a franchise record in wins and was responsible for 1 of 3 trips to the finals. We could go through player accolades as well so it isn't a lack of talent. The problem is the collection of talent doesn't mesh and that's the GM's responsibility.

The writing has been on the wall for a while, with first round picks going for Jalen Smith and Landry Shamet.

Maybe it applies to coaching changes as well. The personnel decisions, indeed, do not mesh.

 

[Covert Rain]

That groin is going to keep him out at least 2 weeks I would imagine.

 

[AzStevenCal]

We are pretty much on the same page.

About all the Suns can do is gun the engines and hope there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Also, they need to change GMs stat. The Suns need a new cook.

Man that just scares me - since that's probably what this front office is likely to do. And to me it just ensures our misery will last well beyond the end of our missing picks. Right now, I'd rather have a roster with 15 G League players supported by a strong developmental program than waste time, effort and draft picks trying to turn this mess into something functional.

 

[Mainstreet]

Man that just scares me - since that's probably what this front office is likely to do. And to me it just ensures our misery will last well beyond the end of our missing picks. Right now, I'd rather have a roster with 15 G League players supported by a strong developmental program than waste time, effort and draft picks trying to turn this mess into something functional.

It's not the path I chose for the Suns, but here we are.

If the Suns rebuild, it's like we are on a spaceship traveling to another destination far, far away and by the time we reach there perhaps half the passengers will be dead.

I'd like to see if the Suns can make a move and fix the team rather than throw it away. If it is not in the cards, then make changes in the off season.

The Suns might be better off letting contracts expire rather than a fire sale if they can't make the right trade.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Its full on blow it up time.

 

[Hoop Head]

Man that just scares me - since that's probably what this front office is likely to do. And to me it just ensures our misery will last well beyond the end of our missing picks. Right now, I'd rather have a roster with 15 G League players supported by a strong developmental program than waste time, effort and draft picks trying to turn this mess into something functional.

The picks are spent. I don't see a reason to strip down now when it does us no good. Trading our slim chance this mess of a team works for zero chance doesn't speed up our rebuild. We're in a precarious spot without a good path forward. All paths are likely to lead to frustration but the one we're on has a glimmer of hope, even if that glimmer is microscopic. We need to hang onto future picks so this era isn't prolonged.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The picks are spent. I don't see a reason to strip down now when it does us no good. Trading our slim chance this mess of a team works for zero chance doesn't speed up our rebuild. We're in a precarious spot without a good path forward. All paths are likely to lead to frustration but the one we're on has a glimmer of hope, even if that glimmer is microscopic. We need to hang onto future picks so this era isn't prolonged.

So, just live with this and simply let our veterans play out their contracts? Although I agree we need to hang onto our picks, I find it highly unlikely that happens if we're still trying to compete.

If there's a 2% chance we can win it all by trading Dunn, Oso and our 2031 pick, I'm pretty sure this front office will do it. In fact, if we had a 2% chance I might even be okay with it, though not in favor of it. But I don't see any path towards contention with this group and the tradable assets we have. So, as I've said, I'd rather see us develop young players in the hopes that when we get out of draft pick hell we might actually have a few core pieces on the roster.

 

[Hoop Head]

So, just live with this and simply let our veterans play out their contracts? Although I agree we need to hang onto our picks, I find it highly unlikely that happens if we're still trying to compete.

If there's a 2% chance we can win it all by trading Dunn, Oso and our 2031 pick, I'm pretty sure this front office will do it. In fact, if we had a 2% chance I might even be okay with it, though not in favor of it. But I don't see any path towards contention with this group and the tradable assets we have. So, as I've said, I'd rather see us develop young players in the hopes that when we get out of draft pick hell we might actually have a few core pieces on the roster.

We probably have a .5% chance at a title now. It's not good and at best it would double trading Oso, Dunn, and our #1 pick in 2031. So a 1% shot, at best, is our window. Why not keep Dunn, Oso, and that pick and let guys expire or trade them at their peak?

We aren't getting lottery picks for KD, Booker, or Beal now. Slim chance we get one during the draft though. So there is no benefit in pulling the plug right now. We don't own our pick and we aren't adding a 2025 lottery pick unless we make a draft night trade. See if incredibly small chance pays off because there's no alternative at the moment.

If you want to blow it up this off-season then we need a reason beyond "We won't win" because we can not win with young guys also but none will be worth investing in long term given what we have available to add around them. We're strapped for assets. Even if we traded Booker for the #1 pick and selected Flagg, who I think will be a future All-Star, Durant will want out and we need to trade him next and that isn't bringing back lottery picks, so we might end up with a Detroit type situation where we have 1 quality youngster (Cade) biding his time to leave town because the franchise can't get him help for a half decade. That isn't going to sell tickets. It won't keep fans tuning in either. We become a joke just like the Pistons.

You seem to forget they just renovated the arena, got a new sponsorship deal at the arena, signed a new TV contract, and a new owner might like to stop bleeding money watching the fan base dwindle. Right now, they're selling out games. Ishbia isn't going to strip this team down and tank ratings and attendance just because some don't like 50 & fade. We're locked in unless Houston trades us our picks back. That's the only thing that makes a teardown an attractive sale for the future. Having zero hope until the mid 30's isn't something anyone wants except those who don't like being teased by 50 & Fade, which is small percentage of the fan base and likely even smaller when it comes to prospective staff and players.

 

[Mainstreet]

It’s Ishbia‘s fault that we are in the shape we are in. I like a lot of stuff he’s done off the court, but his playing GM has sunk this franchise.

Since James Jones had been pursuing the Durant trade all that season, I'm not sure how to distribute blame, but the new Suns owner gave the green light for the trade so you are right in this regard.

 

[95pro]

Since James Jones had been pursuing the Durant trade all that season, I'm not sure how to distribute blame, but the new Suns owner gave the green light for the trade so you are right in this regard.

I’m willing to bet that jones was holding out. But Ishbia pulled the trigger.
Jones and Sarver actually left us in good position. Some youth with upside and picks.
Soon as Ishbia came on, we got that trade notification at midnight.
And so far there’s no backtracking by the current FO on the trade.

 

[Mainstreet]

I’m willing to bet that jones was holding out. But Ishbia pulled the trigger.
Jones and Sarver actually left us in good position. Some youth with upside and picks.
Soon as Ishbia came on, we got that trade notification at midnight.
And so far there’s no backtracking by the current FO on the trade.

It's hard for me to give James Jones the benefit of the doubt because the only thing that may have been holding him back was Robert Sarver. When Mat Ishbia came on board, the deal got done

 

[Phrazbit]

It's hard for me to give James Jones the benefit of the doubt because the only thing that may have been holding him back was Robert Sarver. When Mat Ishbia came on board, the deal got done

I think Ishbia wanted to make his mark on the team.

I get it, he just dropped a few billion dollars, a price beyond reason, the trade deadline was hours away, he wasn't going to have a chance to make any influential decision for several months after, he knew Durant wanted to be here.

Unfortunately that opened him up to making the worst trade in NBA history.

We were a team that had slowly built itself into contention without surrendering really any aspect of it's future, he'd experienced nothing of that, it meant little or nothing to him. The Nets were asking a ludicrous price, with no leverage and no other suitors, we hadn't caved yet because it was (IMO) an obviously horrible trade.

Owning the Suns is a vanity project for him, the Durant trade was all ego and hubris. I don't think the risk analysis that made his mortgage company a huge success carries over in the slightest.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think Ishbia wanted to make his mark on the team.

I get it, he just dropped a few billion dollars, a price beyond reason, the trade deadline was hours away, he wasn't going to have a chance to make any influential decision for several months after, he knew Durant wanted to be here.

Unfortunately that opened him up to making the worst trade in NBA history.

We were a team that had slowly built itself into contention without surrendering really any aspect of it's future, he'd experienced nothing of that, it meant little or nothing to him. The Nets were asking a ludicrous price, with no leverage and no other suitors, we hadn't caved yet because it was (IMO) an obviously horrible trade.

Owning the Suns is a vanity project for him, the Durant trade was all ego and hubris. I don't think the risk analysis that made his mortgage company a huge success carries over in the slightest.

About all we can do is hope there is a learning curve with the new ownership. Their heart seems to be in the right place.

 

[BirdGangThing]

That groin is going to keep him out at least 2 weeks I would imagine.

at least

 

[leclerc]

Suns seem happy with the 9 point loss. All well that ends well.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

It's hard for me to give James Jones the benefit of the doubt because the only thing that may have been holding him back was Robert Sarver. When Mat Ishbia came on board, the deal got done

From what I remember from previous discussions on this topic, Jones was hesitant because he didn't want to give up both Mikal and Cam. Ishbia came in and forced his hand to make the trade with everything the Nets were asking for. Yes Jones wanted to make a trade for Durant, but he didn't want to give up as much as we ended up giving up.

I believe the main sticking point was letting them have Mikal, but I don't recall if that was what Jones didn't want to give up or what Sarver didn't want to give up.

 

[Mainstreet]

From what I remember from previous discussions on this topic, Jones was hesitant because he didn't want to give up both Mikal and Cam. Ishbia came in and forced his hand to make the trade with everything the Nets were asking for. Yes Jones wanted to make a trade for Durant, but he didn't want to give up as much as we ended up giving up.

IMO, it's hard to say Ishbia forced the hand of James Jones when he appeared to be pursuing the Durant trade all season.

The only thing holding him back may have the pending sale of the team. If he hadn't been pursuing the trade, it may never have happened. Ultimately, the GM made the trade.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

IMO, it's hard to say Ishbia forced the hand of James Jones when he appeared to be pursuing the Durant trade all season.

The only thing holding him back may have the pending sale of the team. If he hadn't been pursuing the trade, it may never have happened. Ultimately, the GM made the trade.

The problem isn't that we traded for Durant, it's that we sold the farm in the process. If we had made that trade without adding Mikal we probably aren't talking badly about it right now (granted the trade may never have happened in this scenario). Yes, Jones wanted to make a trade for Durant, but was this the specific trade he wanted to make or was this what the new owner wanted? That makes a big difference IMO.

 

[Mainstreet]

The problem isn't that we traded for Durant, it's that we sold the farm in the process. If we had made that trade without adding Mikal we probably aren't talking badly about it right now (granted the trade may never have happened in this scenario). Yes, Jones wanted to make a trade for Durant, but was this the specific trade he wanted to make or was this what the new owner wanted? That makes a big difference IMO.

Unfortunately, the Suns gave up the farm for Durant, but they did keep a small plot to grow worms.

 

[taz02]

I think the suns swung for the fences with KD and Beal to give Booker a last chance to lead a team to a championship. They overpaid, and hamstrung the team, however I think the fix could be quicker than some think.

Trade Booker for a haul of young high potential talent and or picks. Trade KD, or if he can't return anything of value let his contract expire. Dump Beal, if possible, if not when his contract expires in 2027, spend big on a top free agent.

With an owner willing to spend big and Booker as an asset, things could change pretty quick. If you consider 2027 quick.

Trying my best to be positive.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think the suns swung for the fences with KD and Beal to give Booker a last chance to lead a team to a championship. They overpaid, and hamstrung the team, however I think the fix could be quicker than some think.

Trade Booker for a haul of young high potential talent and or picks. Trade KD, or if he can't return anything of value let his contract expire. Dump Beal, if possible, if not when his contract expires in 2027, spend big on a top free agent.

With an owner willing to spend big and Booker as an asset, things could change pretty quick. If you consider 2027 quick.

Trying my best to be positive.

Your positivity is appreciated.

 

[Covert Rain]

at least

I am trying to stay positive my man. It's really hard with all the injuries. I wouldn't be shocked if it's 3 weeks.