Pashos signs with Jags

[WildBB]

Hope the market improves next year. That may seem lame, but it's better than being on the hook for boatloads of cash to guys who aren't good (see Ross, Oliver - three years left on that winner's contract).

When Ross signed, their were'nt a whole lot of FA's eager to come here and play.

I think with a new stadium, Edgerrin and a visibly upgraded coaching staff - there are no more excuses. We should be a player. It's early, but an area of true need isn't stocked this year - I understand that.

But Black and Fisher - in the first weekend of Fa??

 

[Redsz]

Pashos is a FA loss that stings. He could of been good for us.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Pashos is a FA loss that stings. He could of been good for us.

I was never high on Pashos. The Ravens didn't even try to resign him because they knew that someone would pay WAY too much for him.

 

[Ed Burmila]

When Ross signed, their were'nt a whole lot of FA's eager to come here and play.

I think with a new stadium, Edgerrin and a visibly upgraded coaching staff - there are no more excuses. We should be a player. It's early, but an area of true need isn't stocked this year - I understand that.

But Black and Fisher - in the first weekend of Fa??

I disagree. We have had PLENTY of big-ticket FAs come in here. These guys would play on Mars if the money was right. We could sit here all day naming guys who signed to play here. On the OL alone we got Pete Kendall, Lomas Brown, Duval Love (coming off a pro bowl season), Mike Gruttaduria (who left a Super Bowl team), on and on.

Dennis Green and Rod Graves wildly overpaid Ross when no other team even wanted to kick his tires. Green made a ton of GREAT moves. This was not one of them. We didn't "need" to overpay to get a POS like Ross out here. We've paid legitimate stars (Lomas, Kendall) less and they came.

 

[ajcardfan]

No, we take a cap hit for the remaining pro-rated portion of his signing bonus. We DO save the money we would have to pay him in salary.

No kidding. The balance of the bonus is 2.1mil, his salary is 2.8. Thus, we would save 700K.

We're f'n $35 million under the cap. No one needs to be cut to save anyone cap space or give RG more reasons to crow about how great we are at "managing the cap".

No f'n kidding. So, I don't get why you are so worried about getting "being on the hook" for contracts' like Ross.

 

[Ed Burmila]

I didn't do the math on Ross. Yes, we'd save some money. Good call.

I worry about long, high-dollar contracts because in the future it limits your options. God forbid we enter an offseason where the free agents are actually good - you'd hate to have cap space eaten up with Stinchcombs and the like if that were the case.

 

[kerouac9]

Ed -- Do you really not think that Tony Pashos or Jon Stinchcomb would be an upgrade over Oliver Ross and/or Brandon Gorin?

If you think that they're not, then I'll agree with your reasoning about not going after either of them, but I'll disagree with your evaluation of those players (after all, it's not like the Ravens are flush with cap room).

But if you do think that either of those guys are better than the guys that we have, I don't really understand. You would be upgrading the team at a position of real weakness. After all, Bertrand Berry was exactly the kind of player that these guys were when we signed him, and he remains the best FA signing this team's ever made (yes, including Edgerrin James).

 

[kerouac9]

God forbid we enter an offseason where the free agents are actually good - you'd hate to have cap space eaten up with Stinchcombs and the like if that were the case.

See, for the forseeable future (like the next three offseasons, which is as far ahead as you can look), I don't think there will be any good free agents on the market. So that flexibility is going to be useless.

As it has been the past two offseasons. Huzzah for more Orlando Huff-level signings, and the overrating of such signings by the front office apologists!

 

[TheCardFan]

I was never high on Pashos. The Ravens didn't even try to resign him because they knew that someone would pay WAY too much for him.

They don't have cap room...

 

[ajcardfan]

I didn't do the math on Ross. Yes, we'd save some money. Good call.

I worry about long, high-dollar contracts because in the future it limits your options. God forbid we enter an offseason where the free agents are actually good - you'd hate to have cap space eaten up with Stinchcombs and the like if that were the case.

Yeah, we went through years of cap hell thanks to Buddy and then the Plummer contract. I don't want that either. However, the economics of the cap has really changed with this new CBA. With the projected increases in the future, we'd have a hard time getting to cap hell even if we wanted to, starting from where we are now. Unless the football owner go completely nuts on contracts, like they do in baseball, I think the next few years of free agency are going to be similar to this one.

 

[Ed Burmila]

Ed -- Do you really not think that Tony Pashos or Jon Stinchcomb would be an upgrade over Oliver Ross and/or Brandon Gorin?

If you think that they're not, then I'll agree with your reasoning about not going after either of them, but I'll disagree with your evaluation of those players (after all, it's not like the Ravens are flush with cap room).

Yes, they are a clear upgrade over total crap (i.e. Ross and Gorin). Do you believe that either is worth superstar money? If I had made a post in August that said "Name some OTs we could bring in" would either of these guys - whom I suspect most of the board never heard of 6 weeks ago - been on the list?

I think you're arguing that we are backed into a corner and we need OT help so badly that we need to pay whatever we need to pay. I can accept that logic. It's just not hard for me to see why any rational human being (assuming the ownership/front office are rational human beings) would be less than eager to fork over big bucks for guys who are "decent" at the very most.

If I were RG, I'd be looking to alternatives to writing Jon Stinchcomb a $12,000,000 bonus check too. Draft, trades, you name it. I might eventually do it, but I'd need a couple shots of bourbon and a lot of coercing first.

 

[Ed Burmila]

Yeah, we went through years of cap hell thanks to Buddy and then the Plummer contract. I don't want that either. However, the economics of the cap has really changed with this new CBA. With the projected increases in the future, we'd have a hard time getting to cap hell even if we wanted to, starting from where we are now. Unless the football owner go completely nuts on contracts, like they do in baseball, I think the next few years of free agency are going to be similar to this one.

Good point. There is a nice happy medium somewhere. This is just a very bad year to be flush with cash. What we need isn't really available - that is, a top-flight OT. We blew it last year by passing on Hutchinson (not a T, I know, but a difference-maker on the OL) and now we have Graves' "healthy cap management" with nothing to spend it on.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Yes, they are a clear upgrade over total crap (i.e. Ross and Gorin). Do you believe that either is worth superstar money? If I had made a post in August that said "Name some OTs we could bring in" would either of these guys - whom I suspect most of the board never heard of 6 weeks ago - been on the list?

I think you're arguing that we are backed into a corner and we need OT help so badly that we need to pay whatever we need to pay. I can accept that logic. It's just not hard for me to see why any rational human being (assuming the ownership/front office are rational human beings) would be less than eager to fork over big bucks for guys who are "decent" at the very most.

If I were RG, I'd be looking to alternatives to writing Jon Stinchcomb a $12,000,000 bonus check too. Draft, trades, you name it. I might eventually do it, but I'd need a couple shots of bourbon and a lot of coercing first.

I agree about Pashos. I've never heard of the guy until about 6 weeks ago.

However Stinchcomb is someone I'm familiar with. I was high on him coming out of Georgia and he had a solid year this year as a starter with the Saints. Yes he won't be cheap but sometimes you have to take a risk. Even if we do sign him I still think we need to go after an OT in the draft but I prefer to have other options for the position already available to us. Thus we won't have to reach for an OT in the draft allowing us to get good value with each pick.

 

[Ed Burmila]

I think we could take a guy in round 2 without reaching too hard. Every year there are OTs who fall. Winston Justice, Flozell Adams.....

I understand the need for a veteran. All I am saying is that, if you put yourself in Rod Graves' shoes, it would be genuinely terrifying to write any of the available OTs a check in the size they're demanding.

If Stinchcomb were going around asking for 4 years $18 million, I'd be more than happy to accomodate him. But these salaries have started to exceed all reason and you know these guys are demanding 7, 8 million per year with $20 mil in guaranteed money.

If I'm handing someone that much money, I'd have a reasonable expectation that he'd be a star or close to it.

 

[TheCardFan]

I think we could take a guy in round 2 without reaching too hard. Every year there are OTs who fall. Winston Justice, Flozell Adams.....

Justice hasn't played a down yet so who knows on that one.

We could have had Flozelle but selected Anthony Clement a few spots ahead of him.

Marcus McNeil was excellent but that is rare.

We should have spent our extra 10m last year on Hutchinson.

 

[MadCardDisease]

But these salaries have started to exceed all reason and you know these guys are demanding 7, 8 million per year with $20 mil in guaranteed money.

I agree that would be lunacy and if I were Rod Graves I would laugh at those numbers. We would have been better off franchising Big if that is how much it will take to sign Stinchcomb. I wouldn't hesistate at giving him around $5-6 million per year though. I think it would be worth the risk.

 

[Ed Burmila]

Justice hasn't played a down yet so who knows on that one.

We could have had Flozelle but selected Anthony Clement a few spots ahead of him.

Marcus McNeil was excellent but that is rare.

We should have spent our extra 10m last year on Hutchinson.

I remember, I was screaming at the TV when we passed Flozell

We could easily draft someone high in the second round and have every reason to expect they could be as good as Stinchcomb or the like, which is "mediocre". It's like the way baseball teams waste money paying mediocre starting pitchers $12 million a year to go 12-14. I mean, hell, call up some guys from AAA. I'm sure they can go sub-.500 with an ERA in the fives.

 

[kerouac9]

I think you're arguing that we are backed into a corner and we need OT help so badly that we need to pay whatever we need to pay. I can accept that logic. It's just not hard for me to see why any rational human being (assuming the ownership/front office are rational human beings) would be less than eager to fork over big bucks for guys who are "decent" at the very most.

If I were RG, I'd be looking to alternatives to writing Jon Stinchcomb a $12,000,000 bonus check too. Draft, trades, you name it. I might eventually do it, but I'd need a couple shots of bourbon and a lot of coercing first.

The problem is that if we continue to wait, we'll likely pay a $10,000,000 guarantee to someone like Jordan Black who really stinks and have to start him. Is it worth saving the $2,000,000? I really don't think so. And just because you sign Stinchcomb in free agency doesn't mean that you can't get another guy in the draft.

The funny thing is that the fact that guys like Pashos are getting so much money is a marker that there are no teams willing to trade out quality OT help. Now we may be stuck with Black and using the #5 overall pick on Levi Brown because we decided to be cheap--er, spend wisely. There's then a lot of opportunity cost lost in that equation.

If Graves didn't realize that the necessary contracts are going to be much higher than the actual value of the player coming into this, he's even dumber than many on this board believe. All he would have had to do is check on any of the sports websites in the past week.

 

[Ed Burmila]

We will not over-reach with the #5 pick. This team has gotten much, much better at not letting "need" dictate the #1 pick (except for Rolle, and you could argue that he was in fact the best guy on the board at the time).

If we rely on the draft for a tackle, you can bet the mortgage it will be in the second round unless it's Thomas at #5.

 

[kerouac9]

We will not over-reach with the #5 pick. This team has gotten much, much better at not letting "need" dictate the #1 pick (except for Rolle, and you could argue that he was in fact the best guy on the board at the time).

If we rely on the draft for a tackle, you can bet the mortgage it will be in the second round unless it's Thomas at #5.

Green has one history of running a draft, and that was when he traded down based on need. Hard to predict that he wouldn't do it again.

Even then, Stinchcomb is a former second-round pick. With four years of development, isn't it reasonable to expect that he'd be better than whatever draft pick happens to fall to us in the second round? Especially in a draft that's remarkably thin on real OTs (Ugoh and Blaylock are NFL guards). You can maybe get Joe Staley at that spot. But, again, is it worth the oppotunity cost to have to draft your starting OLT even on the first day instead of have the flexibility to draft your top guy?