PFF Game Grades

[football karma]

Surprised the NFL hasnt set that up actually. Imagine if the Cardinals delievered their own grades to a site every wednesday.

that would be a source of competitive advantage no team would willingly give up.

 

[BritCard]

Thats not exactly what I'm saying.

I've seen guys who did almost nothing in a game get 80 grades.

PFF does not, even by your admission, give grade bumps based on context. Context matters in sports! It matters a lot.

Thats why you have some fans who think of NBA player Robert Horry as some great player. He wasnt. He was a role player who hit a few big shots and some people think he is HOF worthy.

Simmons made a handful of ordinary big plays (his tackle one on one in the hole on Henry) and had a big interception.

I've seen this a lot from PFF so I take them with a massive grain of salt. I'm not saying to fully disregard, but they aren't perfect at all.

Here's the thing though, and we already covered this.

The issue is with with the "I've seen guys" part. Because we all watch football the same way, as a form of entertainment. So we are watching where the ball is most of the time.

There 130 total snaps in the game and on each one 11 players had a job to do. That's 1450 individual tasks performed in the game and not one of us noticed more than probably 100. Let's be generous and say 150 tops. At most we saw 10% of the action and our judgement on whether someone was good or bad comes from their plays within that 10%.

Now, if you want to say that PFF is flawed because of method, quality etc then fair enough. I don't know enough to make that argument. While I understand their -2 to +2 grading system and can see it's technical merits I don't necessarily agree with it's lack of weighting.

The one thing I can never get behind is the casual fan saying "This grade does not match up to my eye test". Well, frankly, all our eyes aren't worth anything combined.

I'm never going to get on board with the idea that 3 trained analysts watching each play by each player separately is less accurate than the max 150 individual plays we see while talking, drinking, eating, tweeting and posting on ASFN.

 

[BritCard]

If it makes anyone feel better Taylor Lewan got a 39.7 grade with 24.1 pass blocking grade. I'm sure that matches everyone's eye test.

 

[Chopper0080]

PFF is a point of reference. It is far from perfect and done without knowledge of assignment or scheme. To be fair to those on this board, I am sure there are many like me who can say "oh, they are running cover 6 and this should have been there". That doesn't account for players communicating in the moment or making their own adjustments on the field. That is how high level football is played. PFF also tries to be the smartest person in the room with their grading. You can reference their draft grades as an easy example of this.


For me, I like that you share this. It gives me an easy check vs what I thought I saw when watching the games and for certain players, I sometimes go back and watch to see if I missed something or if I feel their grade is just off. That said, I do tend to roll my eyes a bit with PFF grades in terms of most player debates. For fans and with the access we have, it is just near impossible to decipher between a lot of players and I feel that is the same for PFF.

 

[BritCard]

PFF is a point of reference. It is far from perfect and done without knowledge of assignment or scheme. To be fair to those on this board, I am sure there are many like me who can say "oh, they are running cover 6 and this should have been there". That doesn't account for players communicating in the moment or making their own adjustments on the field. That is how high level football is played. PFF also tries to be the smartest person in the room with their grading. You can reference their draft grades as an easy example of this.


For me, I like that you share this. It gives me an easy check vs what I thought I saw when watching the games and for certain players, I sometimes go back and watch to see if I missed something or if I feel their grade is just off. That said, I do tend to roll my eyes a bit with PFF grades in terms of most player debates. For fans and with the access we have, it is just near impossible to decipher between a lot of players and I feel that is the same for PFF.

The way I always look at it is this.

Did a player who graded 65 definitely play worse than a guy with 70 in a single game? Possibly not. Did he play worse than a guy with 75? Probably yes.

I don't look at them like Madden ratings. They are guides to performance, not ability. Performance is effected by many external factors.

Love them or hate them they are all that's available and they do generally tally with what everyone thinks.

The biggest lols come from those that can't get enough of PFF grades when they say the player they like played well, but say PFF sucks when they don't.

 

[Krangodnzr]

PFF is a point of reference. It is far from perfect and done without knowledge of assignment or scheme. To be fair to those on this board, I am sure there are many like me who can say "oh, they are running cover 6 and this should have been there". That doesn't account for players communicating in the moment or making their own adjustments on the field. That is how high level football is played. PFF also tries to be the smartest person in the room with their grading. You can reference their draft grades as an easy example of this.


For me, I like that you share this. It gives me an easy check vs what I thought I saw when watching the games and for certain players, I sometimes go back and watch to see if I missed something or if I feel their grade is just off. That said, I do tend to roll my eyes a bit with PFF grades in terms of most player debates. For fans and with the access we have, it is just near impossible to decipher between a lot of players and I feel that is the same for PFF.

This.

I do look at PFF grades. If the Cardinals sign a guy who graded as a 45, the guy is probably a fringe player. If he graded at 65 or above, he might be a pretty useful player.

I actually have the cheaper subscription since they have a military discount and it's nice to read their more indepth write ups.

 

[DeAnna]

Obviously not gospel, but I really hope Hudson works out. @Chopper0080 I really believe Creed Humphrey would have fell to our pick in the 3rd round since Hudson was likely to sign with the Chiefs.

Hudson's rating does seem low. On MFF they mentioned several times how they missed Hudson at center.

I'm just glad we no longer have turtles at center - you know, flat on their back with legs up in the air

 

[kerouac9]

PFF is a point of reference. It is far from perfect and done without knowledge of assignment or scheme. To be fair to those on this board, I am sure there are many like me who can say "oh, they are running cover 6 and this should have been there". That doesn't account for players communicating in the moment or making their own adjustments on the field. That is how high level football is played. PFF also tries to be the smartest person in the room with their grading. You can reference their draft grades as an easy example of this.


For me, I like that you share this. It gives me an easy check vs what I thought I saw when watching the games and for certain players, I sometimes go back and watch to see if I missed something or if I feel their grade is just off. That said, I do tend to roll my eyes a bit with PFF grades in terms of most player debates. For fans and with the access we have, it is just near impossible to decipher between a lot of players and I feel that is the same for PFF.

100% on this. I'd rather have this than not have it (or go to Revenge of the Birds to read Walter's breakdowns).

You just scatch the surface on PFF grades and you quickly discover how problematic they are. Look at Kyler's big scramble before the pass to Rondale. Is that a good play or a bad play? If Kyler misses a first open read, then recovers and completes the pass, how does that get graded? Sometimes good process leads to bad results. The PFF methodology flattens that.

 

[TheCardFan]

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[Jetstream Green]

PFF Is stupid

This, because obviously they do not get our DL tying up the middle to make the running lanes for Henry nonexistent... stats do not tell the real story

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

By the KTBGS (Krangthebrain grading system), Simmons got like an 80.

My grading system is similar to PFF except I give big weight to splash plays and Simmons made a few of those.

The problem with PFF is that a yeoman guy who is always in the right position could score a 80, while a guy who wasn't in the right position all of the time but made 2 big plays could score a 65. Thats why you'll routinely see guys that are only ok score high. I remember one game where Zach Allen scored really high and he didn't really do squat in a loss.

While you’re not wrong there’s power in having a collection of “yeoman guys” who are always in the right position. In fact, with the right coach that could become all you need. An example imo exists with the Patriots. Over the years they’ve had a stud here or there on defense but it’s never really been what I would call a star studded defense. I mean they cast off the Richard seymores and chandlers joneses of the world and kept on defensively. Why? Because they had the tedy bruschis , and Eugene Chung’s “yeoman guys” that bought in and played their positions.

 

[kerouac9]

While you’re not wrong there’s power in having a collection of “yeoman guys” who are always in the right position. In fact, with the right coach that could become all you need. An example imo exists with the Patriots. Over the years they’ve had a stud here or there on defense but it’s never really been what I would call a star studded defense. I mean they cast off the Richard seymores and chandlers joneses of the world and kept on defensively. Why? Because they had the tedy bruschis , and Eugene Chung’s “yeoman guys” that bought in and played their positions.

And all-pro corners.

It's better to have a balanced roster than a stars-and-scrubs approach, but every comparison that begins "Just look at the Patriots" is probably inherently flawed because you have the best QB and best HC of all time. Probably need to find a better use case.

 

[Krangodnzr]

While you’re not wrong there’s power in having a collection of “yeoman guys” who are always in the right position. In fact, with the right coach that could become all you need. An example imo exists with the Patriots. Over the years they’ve had a stud here or there on defense but it’s never really been what I would call a star studded defense. I mean they cast off the Richard seymores and chandlers joneses of the world and kept on defensively. Why? Because they had the tedy bruschis , and Eugene Chung’s “yeoman guys” that bought in and played their positions.

Oh I want my team built with guys like that, but you also need a few Isaiah Simmons types too.

The Patriots just built a really strong core that surrounded, as @kerouac9 stated the best QB and HC of all time.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

And all-pro corners.

It's better to have a balanced roster than a stars-and-scrubs approach, but every comparison that begins "Just look at the Patriots" is probably inherently flawed because you have the best QB and best HC of all time. Probably need to find a better use case.

True. But even as much as a good offense impacts the defense a great QB can only do so much for a defense. I’ll grant bill is a difference maker, but he’s got to get those yeoman to buy I to his system and do their jobs to be successful. And yes they’ve had terrific corners at times throughout this era, but rarely two all pros at the same time. Mostly the guy opposite the stud was a yeoman.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Oh I want my team built with guys like that, but you also need a few Isaiah Simmons types too.

The Patriots just built a really strong core that surrounded, as @kerouac9 stated the best QB and HC of all time.

I think you don’t need a few Simmons to be a solid, above average defense of youre solid yeoman across the board. But to be a great defense you need two of them.

 

[BritCard]

True. But even as much as a good offense impacts the defense a great QB can only do so much for a defense. I’ll grant bill is a difference maker, but he’s got to get those yeoman to buy I to his system and do their jobs to be successful. And yes they’ve had terrific corners at times throughout this era, but rarely two all pros at the same time. Mostly the guy opposite the stud was a yeoman.

You're not wrong. The whole Patriots dynasty is built on "Do your job" and finding guys that are not stars, or at least have not been great elsewhere, and putting them into a system where they could succeed. This is why it's always "buyer beware" on Patriot FA's.

Granted, they have always had a sprinkling of stars at skill positions too.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You're not wrong. The whole Patriots dynasty is built on "Do your job" and finding guys that are not stars, or at least have not been great elsewhere, and putting them into a system where they could succeed. This is why it's always "buyer beware" on Patriot FA's.

Granted, they have always had a sprinkling of stars at skill positions too.

Yup, but even those stars they usually got “on the cheap” like Dillon & Moss. Brady and Gronk being the major exceptions.

 

[SoonerLou]

Because I want @GatorAZ to feel like a proud dad.

Christian Kirk is the 2nd best graded WR in the NFL according to PFF

NFL WR Position Grades

PFF's exclusive metrics provide Wide Receiver (WR) position rankings, grades, and snap counts.

www.pff.com

 

[BirdGangThing]

Offense

Kyler Murray - 84.5

Chase Edmonds - 63.8
James Conner - 63.3

Maxx Williams - 54.7
Demetrius Harris - 55.3
Darrell Daniels - No grade

Hump - 78.7
Pugh - 67.8
Hudson - 52.7 (Only 28.5 pass blocking)
Jones - 42.5 (65 pass blocking)
Beachum - 67.4
Murray - 66.4

Hopkins - 81.8
Green - 55.9 (Nothing to see here, quickly move on)
Kirk - 85.9
Moore - 80.9

When did we last have a QB and 3 WR's over 80 grades?

Have to agree on the Kirk score, he was every where doing everything Mr. Intangibles style

 

[cardsfanmd]

Because I want @GatorAZ to feel like a proud dad.

Christian Kirk is the 2nd best graded WR in the NFL according to PFF

NFL WR Position Grades

PFF's exclusive metrics provide Wide Receiver (WR) position rankings, grades, and snap counts.

www.pff.com

Impossible. The squad of guys on here that know way more than Kliff and Keim said he’s trash.

 

[GatorAZ]

Because I want @GatorAZ to feel like a proud dad.

Christian Kirk is the 2nd best graded WR in the NFL according to PFF

NFL WR Position Grades

PFF's exclusive metrics provide Wide Receiver (WR) position rankings, grades, and snap counts.

www.pff.com

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[BritCard]

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Were Gator and I the only Kirk stans?

 

[GatorAZ]

Were Gator and I the only Kirk stans?

I would’ve traded him and third for Julio but expected a bounce back year (and contract year). I think he’ll hover around 15 ypr in this offense.

 

[HammerCards]

I think part of the issue with Simmons and PFF is that we move him around so much. They can't possibly know his assignment every play. Just a thought is all.

 

[BritCard]

Here's my biggest problem with PFF.

I've mentioned before how it's not weighted for situation, but actually it's biggest issue is that it's not weighted for difficulty.

PFF are simply rating if you did your job or not, not how difficult that job was.

So for example, a center that just tasked with power blocking a nose tackle all game can quite easily get a high rating. They are being tasked with a fairly basic job and if they do that job then PFF give them their points.

Another center for another team might be tasked with a bunch of reach blocks, pulls, or asked to get down field for run blocking. A much more complex range of tasks for which they are less likely to succeed.

Center A might have a 75 grade and Center B might only have 55. That doesn't mean A is a better player, it could mean B was given a much harder role that's more likely to have some failures.

A simpler example might be at QB. Where someone like Cousins (7.3 YPA) throwing a bunch of 6 yard checkdowns can outscore Kyler who with a 10.1 YPA is throwing much higher risk and difficulty passes.