PFT on Kliff

[BritCard]

1. I like the change. Looks cleaner.

2. Hilarious take from someone who was so opposed with taking Murray and still tends to act like you don't think he is that good quite often. I think you are taking this position just so you can also take a swipe at Kliff, because you tend to talk down Murray in a vacuum. Even more hilarious is that I think that Kliff has to scheme around how BAD Murray is at completing intermediate range passes. Murray is a bottom five QB at throwing to this level; it is a huge liability for the offense, but I do think it's fixable long term.

3. Keim is flawed, but I would argue he's probably closer to league average when you look at free agency and trades as well. What you can expect from a league average GM is around 8-8 record, which Keim's overall record is a smidge better than that. A league average GM won't build sustained winners, so I'd be inclined to move on, but the reality is that I think the team just hires Wilson or Harris and those two are just an extension of the Keim era.

I don't know if the Cardinals are on the path to building a championship roster. There IS a path to this team being really good and getting hot at the right time, but that path is built on a lot of "ifs". Watt will have to work out, the CB situation will have to work, another WR with have to step up, the running game will need to improve a little, and the OL will have to solidify. Like I said....a lot of ifs, but it's certainly NOT out of the realm of possibilities. During Keim's first three seasons as GM, the ifs panned out more often than not.

I like this roster on paper. It all depends how it works out in practice. No player just has 1 level of consistency. There are several guys (Conner, Green, Butler, Alford, Watt, Moore, Edmonds, Collins, Simmons etc) that could be good to great, or could completely not fit the scheme and coaching or not be able to step up into a bigger role.

Tie that in with some suspect head coaching, some inconsistent QB play (especially in the intermediate range) and a schedule that could be tough and I honestly thing this team could be anything from 5-12 to 11-6.

But purely from a roster ability perspective this might be the best roster Keim ever put together overall. For sure he's had some rosters that performed great with some great coaching from BA and Bowles. But pure individual talent wise this might be the best.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I like this roster on paper. It all depends how it works out in practice. No player just has 1 level of consistency. There are several guys (Conner, Green, Butler, Alford, Watt, Moore, Edmonds, Collins, Simmons etc) that could be good to great, or could completely not fit the scheme and coaching or not be able to step up into a bigger role.

Tie that in with some suspect head coaching, some inconsistent QB play (especially in the intermediate range) and a schedule that could be tough and I honestly thing this team could be anything from 5-12 to 11-6.

But purely from a roster ability perspective this might be the best roster Keim ever put together overall. For sure he's had some rosters that performed great with some great coaching from BA and Bowles. But pure individual talent wise this might be the best.

My view is quite similar to yours.

I think this team COULD go 11-6....I also think that 7-10 is a possibility, just because the Cardinals have some big IFs.

 

[Solar7]

1. I like the change. Looks cleaner.

2. Hilarious take from someone who was so opposed with taking Murray and still tends to act like you don't think he is that good quite often. I think you are taking this position just so you can also take a swipe at Kliff, because you tend to talk down Murray in a vacuum. Even more hilarious is that I think that Kliff has to scheme around how BAD Murray is at completing intermediate range passes. Murray is a bottom five QB at throwing to this level; it is a huge liability for the offense, but I do think it's fixable long term.

3. Keim is flawed, but I would argue he's probably closer to league average when you look at free agency and trades as well. What you can expect from a league average GM is around 8-8 record, which Keim's overall record is a smidge better than that. A league average GM won't build sustained winners, so I'd be inclined to move on, but the reality is that I think the team just hires Wilson or Harris and those two are just an extension of the Keim era.

I don't know if the Cardinals are on the path to building a championship roster. There IS a path to this team being really good and getting hot at the right time, but that path is built on a lot of "ifs". Watt will have to work out, the CB situation will have to work, another WR with have to step up, the running game will need to improve a little, and the OL will have to solidify. Like I said....a lot of ifs, but it's certainly NOT out of the realm of possibilities. During Keim's first three seasons as GM, the ifs panned out more often than not.

2. I still worry Kyler is going to be a stat monster that never puts it together in terms of winning. Or that his rushing will eventually decline/be taken away by injury and we'll be in a bad position. Last year, that's what killed us. But yes, I talk Kyler down a little bit. He has a long way to go. Most QBs do. But he sure as hell can run.

3. Keim's poor drafting is my #1 concern. This team is not built for consistent success. What I hate is that next year, this team won't resemble what it was this year even if we play well.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

My thought is, if Arians wcoaching this team, playoff bound.

Kliff coaching the team, .500 or below is likely.

 

[cardncubfan]

2. I still worry Kyler is going to be a stat monster that never puts it together in terms of winning. Or that his rushing will eventually decline/be taken away by injury and we'll be in a bad position. Last year, that's what killed us. But yes, I talk Kyler down a little bit. He has a long way to go. Most QBs do. But he sure as hell can run.

3. Keim's poor drafting is my #1 concern. This team is not built for consistent success. What I hate is that next year, this team won't resemble what it was this year even if we play well.

Even if Kyler's running declined to 50% of what it is now he would still be a better runner than any QB not named Lamar.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

I like that they changed the thread titles on the main page back to black

Easier to see

 

[PACardsFan]

My view is quite similar to yours.

I think this team COULD go 11-6....I also think that 7-10 is a possibility, just because the Cardinals have some big IFs.

This applies to many teams in the NFL. Injuries & how much KK‘s coaching has improved will determine where we land.

 

[Cheesebeef]

thank God the Suns are kicking *** right now so I don't get sucked into pre-camp Cardinals stupidity arguments.

 

[QuebecCard]

2. I still worry Kyler is going to be a stat monster that never puts it together in terms of winning. Or that his rushing will eventually decline/be taken away by injury and we'll be in a bad position. Last year, that's what killed us. But yes, I talk Kyler down a little bit. He has a long way to go. Most QBs do. But he sure as **** can run.

3. Keim's poor drafting is my #1 concern. This team is not built for consistent success. What I hate is that next year, this team won't resemble what it was this year even if we play well.

If KM is a stat monster he will have fulfilled his role.

*Ask Dan Marino!

Winning and losing are shared responsibilities.

 

[football karma]

my pov on Kliff:

he was a developmental HC hire two years ago. Mike B wants a HC they can ride for a long time. We have seen the learning curve.

that being said: learning time is over. Two NFL seasons is plenty to find your feet. I want him to have the same courage in the fourth quarter that he has shown in the second quarter.

the other part of his evaluation is how Murray develops. If K1 takes the next step, Kliff will be around for while because that means the Cards will win far more than they lose.

 

[Totally_Red]

Kingsbury has to be better this season and the Cardinals can't lead the league in penalties again and make the post-season IMO

 

[Krangodnzr]

2. I still worry Kyler is going to be a stat monster that never puts it together in terms of winning. Or that his rushing will eventually decline/be taken away by injury and we'll be in a bad position. Last year, that's what killed us. But yes, I talk Kyler down a little bit. He has a long way to go. Most QBs do. But he sure as **** can run.

3. Keim's poor drafting is my #1 concern. This team is not built for consistent success. What I hate is that next year, this team won't resemble what it was this year even if we play well.

1. As others have stated, being a stat monster means he is doing his job. Last year he had a top three QB season in Cardinals history. If he can correct the biggest hole in his game (intermediate passes), I have zero doubt he will post a best ever Cardinals QB season. If you look at the tape, Murray's struggles were the biggest reason the team struggled over the second half, not the defense and not Kliffs play calling or game management. The kid is already a really good player, but his weakness is a big one and one that teams heavily exploited. It's tough to scheme around being a bottom QB at a specific task; teams will try and force you to beat them that way. And Murray couldn't, even though the intermediate zones were often very open.

2. Like I said, Keim is about league average. But average ISN'T good enough. His strengths means the team will always be 1) expensive 2) have a lot of turnover from year to year.

What I fear is that the Cardinals are going to be in the endless cycle of having 2-3 decent to good seasons punctuated with 2-3 years of bad to mediocre. That's a **** way to manage a team.

 

[cardpa]

We talk about ceilings for players and how high or low of a ceiling they may have. I my opinion, KK has a low ceiling as a head coach. In six seasons as a head coach at Texas Tech he never was better than 8-5 and that was his first season. He never equaled that in the following five seasons and in fact only had one other winning season at 7-6. We talk about a learning curve for him in the NFL but it seems his learning curve as a head coach in college was pretty flat.

 

[PACardsFan]

We talk about ceilings for players and how high or low of a ceiling they may have. I my opinion, KK has a low ceiling as a head coach. In six seasons as a head coach at Texas Tech he never was better than 8-5 and that was his first season. He never equaled that in the following five seasons and in fact only had one other winning season at 7-6. We talk about a learning curve for him in the NFL but it seems his learning curve as a head coach in college was pretty flat.

You're beating a dead horse. This season will likely answer more questions about KK. Even if he wins 10 games, some on this board will continue to whine.

 

[Jetstream Green]

We talk about ceilings for players and how high or low of a ceiling they may have. I my opinion, KK has a low ceiling as a head coach. In six seasons as a head coach at Texas Tech he never was better than 8-5 and that was his first season. He never equaled that in the following five seasons and in fact only had one other winning season at 7-6. We talk about a learning curve for him in the NFL but it seems his learning curve as a head coach in college was pretty flat.

Can we stop using his tenure at Texas Tech as a measuring stick, geez. You are not playing with a full deck of talent there from a recruiting standpoint, but we can judge his poor game management and his third year as a pro will show us what we have... you can take a look at Texas Tech's history to get an idea that coaching is not the main issue, you have to have the material to win consistently

Texas Tech Red Raiders College Football History, Stats, Records | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

Check out the Texas Tech Red Raiders College Football History, Stats, Records, Polls, Bowls and More College Football Stats at Sports-Reference.com

www.sports-reference.com

 

[Krangodnzr]

Can we stop using his tenure at Texas Tech as a measuring stick, geez. You are not playing with a full deck of talent there from a recruiting standpoint, but we can judge his poor game management and his third year as a pro will show us what we have... you can take a look at Texas Tech's history to get an idea that coaching is not the main issue, you have to have the material to win consistently

Texas Tech Red Raiders College Football History, Stats, Records | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

Check out the Texas Tech Red Raiders College Football History, Stats, Records, Polls, Bowls and More College Football Stats at Sports-Reference.com

www.sports-reference.com

It's not exactly a sophisticated take.

Bruce Arians had a losing record as a college college so he SUCKZ!

What is rarely mentioned by the "KK sucks because of his college record crowd" is just how good his offenses were over his tenure at Texas Tech.

 

[DVontel]

We talk about ceilings for players and how high or low of a ceiling they may have. I my opinion, KK has a low ceiling as a head coach. In six seasons as a head coach at Texas Tech he never was better than 8-5 and that was his first season. He never equaled that in the following five seasons and in fact only had one other winning season at 7-6. We talk about a learning curve for him in the NFL but it seems his learning curve as a head coach in college was pretty flat.

I feel like you say this statement verbatim in every Kliff thread. It’s kind of impressive.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Can we stop using his tenure at Texas Tech as a measuring stick, geez. You are not playing with a full deck of talent there from a recruiting standpoint, but we can judge his poor game management and his third year as a pro will show us what we have... you can take a look at Texas Tech's history to get an idea that coaching is not the main issue, you have to have the material to win consistently

Texas Tech Red Raiders College Football History, Stats, Records | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

Check out the Texas Tech Red Raiders College Football History, Stats, Records, Polls, Bowls and More College Football Stats at Sports-Reference.com

www.sports-reference.com

Mike Leach is on the phone and would like to speak with you.

 

[Solar7]

Can we stop using his tenure at Texas Tech as a measuring stick, geez. You are not playing with a full deck of talent there from a recruiting standpoint, but we can judge his poor game management and his third year as a pro will show us what we have... you can take a look at Texas Tech's history to get an idea that coaching is not the main issue, you have to have the material to win consistently

Texas Tech Red Raiders College Football History, Stats, Records | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

Check out the Texas Tech Red Raiders College Football History, Stats, Records, Polls, Bowls and More College Football Stats at Sports-Reference.com

www.sports-reference.com

Can we stop making excuses for him?

It's not exactly a sophisticated take.

Bruce Arians had a losing record as a college college so he SUCKZ!

What is rarely mentioned by the "KK sucks because of his college record crowd" is just how good his offenses were over his tenure at Texas Tech.

Yeah, not like he had Patrick Mahomes or anything.

 

[Chopper0080]

If you want to assign blame and fault it goes Bidwill, Keim, and Kliff.

Bidwill has been the most consistent factor with this team and has his hands in all of it. You aren't firing him, but it starts here.

Keim is second. Again, he is the constant and has really struggled to draft talent to fill our roster. He has overseen three head coaches and multiple disappointing seasons. I don't see what he has done to think we deserves to see the hiring of a 4th HC.

Kliff. Kliff was an inexperienced HC when we hired him to coach a team with an inexperienced QB and a bad roster. I put more on Kyler's inexperience holding this offense back than anything else. You can't do anything special when you have a QB who is learning to do the basics. That said, the penalties are frustrating as is the lack of pre-snap motion. I also think Kliff needs to dictate a little more to Kyler rather than worrying so much about what Kyler likes and dislikes so much.

Personally, I am in wait and see mode. I would argue that Keim's seat should be hotter than Kliff's. The need for older vets who are past their price is due to Keim's inability to draft. Someone else said it and it is true, when you build through free agency you are always having cap concerns and are always churning much of the roster. Keim had several years to struggle in his GM role and he is still here. I don't see why you would hire Kliff and not give him the same.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Can we stop making excuses for him?

Yeah, not like he had Patrick Mahomes or anything.

Yeah he had Mahomes...and Mahomes had a top 5 scoring offense.

 

[Krangodnzr]

If you want to assign blame and fault it goes Bidwill, Keim, and Kliff.

Bidwill has been the most consistent factor with this team and has his hands in all of it. You aren't firing him, but it starts here.

Keim is second. Again, he is the constant and has really struggled to draft talent to fill our roster. He has overseen three head coaches and multiple disappointing seasons. I don't see what he has done to think we deserves to see the hiring of a 4th HC.

Kliff. Kliff was an inexperienced HC when we hired him to coach a team with an inexperienced QB and a bad roster. I put more on Kyler's inexperience holding this offense back than anything else. You can't do anything special when you have a QB who is learning to do the basics. That said, the penalties are frustrating as is the lack of pre-snap motion. I also think Kliff needs to dictate a little more to Kyler rather than worrying so much about what Kyler likes and dislikes so much.

Personally, I am in wait and see mode. I would argue that Keim's seat should be hotter than Kliff's. The need for older vets who are past their price is due to Keim's inability to draft. Someone else said it and it is true, when you build through free agency you are always having cap concerns and are always churning much of the roster. Keim had several years to struggle in his GM role and he is still here. I don't see why you would hire Kliff and not give him the same.

Heh I think it was me who said the comment about building through free agency.

I agree with all of your comments, especially about Kyler holding the Cardinals offense back.
I'll be ****** if we see Keim survive a Kingsbury firing.

 

[BritCard]

Yeah he had Mahomes...and Mahomes had a top 5 scoring offense.

His team had consistent bottom 5 defenses. They didn't before. They didn't last year. Several dozen other smaller schools had better defenses including UTEP and North Texas.

The whole "It's not Kliff's fault. TTU don't attract good defenders" is crap.

 

[HomerPimpson]

My thought is, if Arians wcoaching this team, playoff bound.

Kliff coaching the team, .500 or below is likely.

I think BA is one of those coaches with a short shelf life coaching a team. Let's not pretend like he was exceptional his whole time here.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Can we stop making excuses for him?

Yeah, not like he had Patrick Mahomes or anything.

Well, if he got Mahomes, then he is one of the few that recognized his talent above the bigger schools who would have then recruited him and then you have to give him credit for developing him, but you can only score so many freaking points which they did but the powerhouse legacy of defense at Texas Tech pretty much starts and ends with a undersized LB named Zach Thomas. That is not an excuse but a reason, a freaking valid reason which is a giant monkey wrench for those wanting to use his college tenure of wins and loses as some kind of barometer for his ability