Philadelphia Phillies @ Arizona Diamondbacks Aug 6 - Aug 8, 2018

[82CardsGrad]

Pitchers originally threw to contact. The game changed and now they throw to deceive.

Archie... not so much. [emoji6]

 

[82CardsGrad]

The good news is you don’t need to know or keep up with the intricacies of the sport to enjoy the action and root for your team anymore than you need to know the physics of inertia and gravity to enjoy a coaster ride.

Curious about your own personal view of the shift? Do you lean in a direction - in favor or against, or perhaps some modification?

 

[BC867]

There is so much to unpack.

1) Superficially, it’s sabermetrics, not sibremetrics.

2) The key things to hitting the ball are to get a high exit velocity and backspin. That makes the ball travel most and generates the most power. Whether it leaves the park or not. Even on line drives these things matter.

3) This concept of “lift” BC is obsessed with came from Ted Williams, who obviously knows nothing about hitting and is just a stat geek:

In The Science of Hitting, Ted Williams bemoaned that hitters "always heard that the ideal swing is level or `down."' The Hall of Famer advocated a "slight upswing" because it "puts the bat flush in line with the path of the ball for a longer period." That is, if the ball is traveling down from the pitcher's hand to the catcher's glove, the best chance at solid contact is to swing the bat on the same plane — up toward the pitcher's release point.

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4) In order to generate that exit velocity, hitters want as much whip through the strike zone they can generate. For those who golf, think of your driver swing. I understand the asthetic desire to see hitters swing more like they have a PW than a driver, but think of trying to pitch with a driver. It’s not easy nor something you practice. The defensive shift is more about the propensity to roll over a ball with a grounder than driving a ball well struck anyways. Even if you don’t hit a HR, a well struck line drive in the gap will still generate a hit on most occasions.

5) MLB has better scouting and better understanding of offensive skill than at any other point in the history of the game. Teams aren’t looking for that weak stick middle fielder to poke at the ball like pre 80’s baseball. They are looking for the next Mike Trout and A-Rod.

6) We didn’t fail last night because we were swinging for the fences focused on the three true outcomes. We only struck out 4 times in those 8 innings. We failed because Jake Arrietta has ungodly movement on his pitches and causes weak contact. The argument that we should try and make more weak contact instead of swinging wildly for the fences is not to be made with Arrietta who generates weak contact without any help of the batter giving up his exit velocity.

Most of my post concerned hitters not taking advantage of the unguarded side of the infield including, and especially, when they had only two or three hits all game or left a lot of runners on base. I wouldn't call that weak contact. Rather, not doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

And I did misspell sabermetrics. Thank you for catching that. But it has no bearing on the concept. And "obsessed"? Is that your description of someone having an opinion other than your own?

 

[DWKB]

Curious about your own personal view of the shift? Do you lean in a direction - in favor or against, or perhaps some modification?

I’m in favor of utilizing patterns and tendencies to position defensive players. Be that a CF shading to LF or RF, a 3B or 1B playing against the line, or something more extreme.

It is to me as raw and obvious an example of “strategy” one can observe in baseball.

 

[GatorAZ]

Goldy fouls off so many pitches he should be hitting 400 ft

 

[AZ Native]

Goldy fouls off so many pitches he should be hitting 400 ft

Easy for us to say.

 

[BC867]

Back to the Phillies game. Both pitchers throwing a lot of pitches and we're just in the bottom of the 4th.

 

[AZ Native]

I have no coverage here but will follow this thread when I can.

 

[82CardsGrad]

I’m in favor of utilizing patterns and tendencies to position defensive players. Be that a CF shading to LF or RF, a 3B or 1B playing against the line, or something more extreme.

It is to me as raw and obvious an example of “strategy” one can observe in baseball.

True... but putting 3 or more infielders on one side of second base just seems/feels like going too far...
I remain stunned at how many hitters seem entirely incapable of punching the ball through the WIDE open gap on the other side of second. However, I would prefer seeing MLB place a limitation on the shift along the lines I mentioned above...

 

[BC867]

I have no coverage here but will follow this thread when I can.

1-0 Phillies after five.

 

[DWKB]

Most of my post concerned hitters not taking advantage of the unguarded side of the infield including, and especially, when they had only two or three hits all game or left a lot of runners on base. I wouldn't call that weak contact. Rather, not doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

And I did misspell sabermetrics. Thank you for catching that. But it has no bearing on the concept. And "obsessed"? Is that your description of someone having an opinion other than your own?

Yes, your main idea was we failed to do much damage against a rather good starting pitcher and that we, like most teams, don’t take advantage of the shift like you’d like us to.

However, most of your post was why that was and I found it to be misguided and I’ll informed.

As to “obsessed”, I’ll admit it’s a subjective term, but I don’t know what else to call someone continuously bringing it up unprovoked in their posts upwards of 20 times in the last few months including creating a special thread just to discuss it.

 

[DWKB]

True... but putting 3 or more infielders on one side of second base just seems/feels like going too far...
I remain stunned at how many hitters seem entirely incapable of punching the ball through the WIDE open gap on the other side of second. However, I would prefer seeing MLB place a limitation on the shift along the lines I mentioned above...

I supposed it’s subjective, but I don’t know if it’s any more “too far” than seeing the 3B rush into the IF 5 feet from the plate on a bunt before contact is made.

Would you also be for a line preventing them from entering the grass before contact was made? It would certainly have a chance to change strategy at the plate for some hitters. In the century plus of MLB the slap hit has yet to be mastered enough to thwart this defensive shift.

If MLB chooses to put restrictions on defensive placement I won’t be too irritated by it, but I would find it limiting to the game.

As for why hitters can’t defeat the shift, it never would have become so common if it were easy.

 

[AZ Native]

True... but putting 3 or more infielders on one side of second base just seems/feels like going too far...
I remain stunned at how many hitters seem entirely incapable of punching the ball through the WIDE open gap on the other side of second. However, I would prefer seeing MLB place a limitation on the shift along the lines I mentioned above...

I am not in favor of an MLB limitation but I fault the players for not taking the easy shot to the weak side. Jeez, I learned to hit to the opposite side in Little League. They think they are Ted Williams.

 

[DWKB]

I am not in favor of an MLB limitation but I fault the players for not taking the easy shot to the weak side. Jeez, I learned to hit to the opposite side in Little League. They think they are Ted Williams.

Yeah, but in LL the pitchers are just trying to get it over the plate while in MLB they are locating to try and get you to weakly fly out to LF or roll over to the right side of the IF. You won’t get the chance to go opposite field with a hard hit ball unless they make a mistake.

 

[BC867]

As for why hitters can’t defeat the shift, it never would have become so common if it were easy.

Out of curiosity, I researched where the D-backs rank in the NL in runners left on base. We are just below the league average, ranked 8th out of 15 teams with 776.

That may not seem to be so bad . . . unless you're trying to hold on to first place and make the playoffs. Middle of the pack doesn't cut it.

I, as I've been posting, equate runners left on base with the stubbornness of hitters to take advantage of holes in the (opposite) fields as a tool to advance runners/drive them in.

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[DWKB]

Out of curiosity, I researched where the D-backs rank in the NL in runners left on base. We are just below the league average, ranked 8th out of 15 teams with 776.

That may not seem to be so bad . . . unless you're trying to hold on to first place and make the playoffs. Just below average doesn't cut it.

I, as I've been posting, equate runners left on base with the stubbornness of hitters to take advantage of holes in the (opposite) fields as a tool to advance runners/drive them in.

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So, you’re saying we should be more like SDP & NYM and less like CHC?

 

[Shaggy]

This team just can't hit or just can't hit singles with runners.

 

[AZ Native]

Yeah, but in LL the pitchers are just trying to get it over the plate while in MLB they are locating to try and get you to weakly fly out to LF or roll over to the right side of the IF. You won’t get the chance to go opposite field with a hard hit ball unless they make a mistake.

True but the batters are Little Leagues too so the net is the same.

 

[Shaggy]

Wow. Little league play.

What is it with our pitchers not able to throw to first?

 

[GatorAZ]

Idk why we traded for this guy.

 

[BC867]

So, you’re saying we should be more like SDP & NYM and less like CHC?

Very funny! I'm saying we should be better than middle of the pack.

DWKB, seriously, as we try to hold on to first place, don't you see how many games we've had more runners left on base and runners left in scoring position? I know you're not rooting for that.

If we could use more strategy (which the NL is supposed to be known for), we could take a step forward and solidify a lead. Strategy such as doing what it takes to win more games.

When all is said and done, the only team stats that matter are the numbers under "R" at the end of the game.

I sincerely would like to see our D-backs become innovators when it comes to maximizing our runners on base/runners in scoring position. Hitting the ball through the vacated side of the infield is a lot easier than reaching the seats.

 

[GatorAZ]

Torey waving the white flag down two.

 

[BC867]

RE: the game -- the D'backs are falling apart. Weak relieving. Two errors on one play. Phillies up by 4 and we still haven't scored a run.

EDIT: It's now 5-0 Phillies.

 

[TJ]

That May offense is back

 

[Shaggy]

That May offense is back

Looks like it.