PJ Tucker arrested for "super extreme" DUI

Mainstreet

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I've answered it twice already. Do a search on my posts in this thread.

(Edit: I forgot that most of them were hacked into oblivion. I won't re-create them, but I'll try to find the charts again later this evening.)

If a 200-pound man has one drink, he is well below the legal line. He's still probably minimally impaired, but within what our society tolerates. There are very few perfect drivers out there. Many are just plain stupid, but we don't have an intelligence test to get a license. Or, as a more benign example, it's well documented that people become worse drivers as they age, but we've decided that we'd rather let people in their 70s keep their "freedom" than hold them to standards that would be appropriate for someone half a century younger.

Did you look at the charts I posted? Tucker didn't have one beer, or two, or four, or six. He needed to have at least ten drinks to get to that BAC, and that would be if he binged them all in a few minutes! I don't understand why you won't acknowledge that Tucker was miles beyond any gray area, or anything that's in the realm of what anyone could possibly consider "not so bad."

There's no counter-side to Tucker's case. Really, just drop it. If you don't know the difference between one drink and a dozen, do some reading.

Great way to try to stifle communication. Sometimes you can be so arrogant.

I was exploring if most posters feel there should be zero tolerance of alcohol when driving.

You think Tucker had too much to drink. How unique.
 

elindholm

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Great way to try to stifle communication. Sometimes you can be so arrogant.

No, Mainstreet, I'm sorry, it's not arrogant. Adult members of a society have an obligation to know about things that are likely to cause harm to others. Even if you never drink a drop of alcohol yourself, you need to have some idea of what condition your friends are in. At some point you might have to step in and take someone's keys away.

It's not "arrogant" to be concerned about other people. It's irresponsible not to be at least minimally informed about public dangers. From the beginning of this thread, you have consistently tried to raise doubt about whether Tucker is "really" guilty or whether what he did lies in some sort of area of nebulous judgment. It's just wrong. If you want to know why I'm angry, that's the reason. If you want to call it "arrogant," then go ahead, but please at least get better informed about the issue.
 

Mainstreet

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No, Mainstreet, I'm sorry, it's not arrogant. Adult members of a society have an obligation to know about things that are likely to cause harm to others. Even if you never drink a drop of alcohol yourself, you need to have some idea of what condition your friends are in. At some point you might have to step in and take someone's keys away.

It's not "arrogant" to be concerned about other people. It's irresponsible not to be at least minimally informed about public dangers. From the beginning of this thread, you have consistently tried to raise doubt about whether Tucker is "really" guilty or whether what he did lies in some sort of area of nebulous judgment. It's just wrong. If you want to know why I'm angry, that's the reason. If you want to call it "arrogant," then go ahead, but please at least get better informed about the issue.

You assume I know less than you about the subject. If that is not arrogance then give me another name for it. I have learned to look at these type things from every angle. It has been a necessity.
 

SirStefan32

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You assume I know less than you about the subject. If that is not arrogance then give me another name for it. I have learned to look at these type things from every angle. It has been a necessity.

What other angle? Good Lord, the man was at almost three times the legal limit! Did the globalists get him drunk and throw him in a car because he was threatening to expose their plans to create new world order after their meeting in Bilderberg? Maybe it was the aliens that abducted him and gave him an alcohol probe?
 

elindholm

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You assume I know less than you about the subject.

Come on, you keep asking questions like whether a 200-pound man who has one beer is a drunk driver. If you're asking these questions for rhetorical effect, then fess up as to what your real point is; if you're asking for information, then yes, I do know more than you about the subject.

I have learned to look at these type things from every angle. It has been a necessity.

What are some other examples of "these type things"? As I've said before -- although I can't remember if it's in posts that survived the purge -- there are moral gray areas out there, but this isn't one of them.

You keep referring obliquely to some hypothetical reason that this may not be as bad as it looks. The only theory that you've been able to come up with is that maybe he was pulled over without "probable cause," which is irrelevant. When asked for any other possibility, you duck and cover and speak in weird generalities.

My interpretation is that you can't understand why the Suns would be so irresponsible, so hostile to their fans, as to sign this guy who easily could have gotten several Phoenix residents killed -- and sign him to a big contract, at that. Faced with that cognitive dissonance, your only out is to fantasize about some extenuating circumstance that the Suns knew about and have inexplicably decided to keep secret.

Well, I don't know why they signed him to a fat contract either. But for me, the explanation isn't that Tucker's transgression is being exaggerated, but that the Suns just aren't as classy an organization as I'd like them to be. It's sad, but it's the only remotely plausible conclusion given the information we have, or even given information that might realistically be out there and hidden from us.

If you find that analysis arrogant, tell me where I'm wrong. It's very simple.
 

Mainstreet

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What other angle? Good Lord, the man was at almost three times the legal limit! Did the globalists get him drunk and throw him in a car because he was threatening to expose their plans to create new world order after their meeting in Bilderberg? Maybe it was the aliens that abducted him and gave him an alcohol probe?

I thought the PJ Tucker being guilty of DUI was put to bed when he plead guilty.
 

Cheesebeef

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Come on, you keep asking questions like whether a 200-pound man who has one beer is a drunk driver. If you're asking these questions for rhetorical effect, then fess up as to what your real point is; if you're asking for information, then yes, I do know more than you about the subject.



What are some other examples of "these type things"? As I've said before -- although I can't remember if it's in posts that survived the purge -- there are moral gray areas out there, but this isn't one of them.

You keep referring obliquely to some hypothetical reason that this may not be as bad as it looks. The only theory that you've been able to come up with is that maybe he was pulled over without "probable cause," which is irrelevant. When asked for any other possibility, you duck and cover and speak in weird generalities.

My interpretation is that you can't understand why the Suns would be so irresponsible, so hostile to their fans, as to sign this guy who easily could have gotten several Phoenix residents killed -- and sign him to a big contract, at that. Faced with that cognitive dissonance, your only out is to fantasize about some extenuating circumstance that the Suns knew about and have inexplicably decided to keep secret.

this reminds me of the rather odd argument that Mainstreet made when he said JC didn't use underhanded tactics that were completely against the rules when we circumvented the salary cap to sign AC Green and Manning. What was his reasoning? Because he said so. Literally... that was it. Bottom line for me in that argument and reading what he's written here is that the Suns as an organization deserve free passes for their trangressions simply because they are the Suns and his favorite team.
 

Mainstreet

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this reminds me of the rather odd argument that Mainstreet made when he said JC didn't use underhanded tactics that were completely against the rules when we circumvented the salary cap to sign AC Green and Manning. What was his reasoning? Because he said so. Literally... that was it. Bottom line for me in that argument and reading what he's written here is that the Suns as an organization deserve free passes for their trangressions simply because they are the Suns and his favorite team.

Are you back to this cheesebeef? Because you could not win that argument you keep coming back to it. So show me where the NBA Commissioner sanctioned JC. It's an old topic.
 

elindholm

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I thought the PJ Tucker being guilty of DUI was put to bed when he plead guilty.

Are you back to this cheesebeef? Because you could not win that argument you keep coming back to it. So show me where the NBA Commissioner sanctioned JC. It's an old topic.

I think I detect a pattern. Is it your position that as long as someone evades "the law," then what he did isn't wrong? That could explain these disagreements. Most of us think that what Tucker did was wrong whether he got caught or not, and no matter which charge he ended up pleading to. But maybe you think that it's wrong only because he got caught and punished. Is that it?
 

Mainstreet

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Come on, you keep asking questions like whether a 200-pound man who has one beer is a drunk driver. If you're asking these questions for rhetorical effect, then fess up as to what your real point is; if you're asking for information, then yes, I do know more than you about the subject.



What are some other examples of "these type things"? As I've said before -- although I can't remember if it's in posts that survived the purge -- there are moral gray areas out there, but this isn't one of them.

You keep referring obliquely to some hypothetical reason that this may not be as bad as it looks. The only theory that you've been able to come up with is that maybe he was pulled over without "probable cause," which is irrelevant. When asked for any other possibility, you duck and cover and speak in weird generalities.

My interpretation is that you can't understand why the Suns would be so irresponsible, so hostile to their fans, as to sign this guy who easily could have gotten several Phoenix residents killed -- and sign him to a big contract, at that. Faced with that cognitive dissonance, your only out is to fantasize about some extenuating circumstance that the Suns knew about and have inexplicably decided to keep secret.

Well, I don't know why they signed him to a fat contract either. But for me, the explanation isn't that Tucker's transgression is being exaggerated, but that the Suns just aren't as classy an organization as I'd like them to be. It's sad, but it's the only remotely plausible conclusion given the information we have, or even given information that might realistically be out there and hidden from us.

If you find that analysis arrogant, tell me where I'm wrong. It's very simple.

My position has always been to look at things from the perspective of the criminal justice system. Yes, there is a system of due process. I can't be more clear. When PJ Tucker plead guilty to the DUI it was over. Your arrogance is believing you know more about the subject.
 

elindholm

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My position has always been to look at things from the perspective of the criminal justice system. Yes, there is a system of due process. I can't be more clear.

So driving when you can't tell up from down and are on the verge of choking on your own vomit is bad only if you get caught and punished, right? The criminal justice system is the only arbiter? That's what you're saying, but I can't believe it's what you mean.
 

Mainstreet

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I think I detect a pattern. Is it your position that as long as someone evades "the law," then what he did isn't wrong? That could explain these disagreements. Most of us think that what Tucker did was wrong whether he got caught or not, and no matter which charge he ended up pleading to. But maybe you think that it's wrong only because he got caught and punished. Is that it?

I think a person is innocent until proven guilty or pleads guilty. This would summarize my stance and why I try not to rush to judgement. I believe a person needs to be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Again, I am not arguing Tucker was innocent, only that all the facts should be presented before finding guilt. I tried to enlarge the playing field concerning DUIs beyond Tucker, but obviously this was misinterpreted.
 

Mainstreet

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So driving when you can't tell up from down and are on the verge of choking on your own vomit is bad only if you get caught and punished, right? The criminal justice system is the only arbiter? That's what you're saying, but I can't believe it's what you mean.

We talked about this before. Certainly there are other arbiters like civil court. If one takes things into their own hands they are on their own. I'm not sure what you want anymore.
 

3rdside

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Non-Americans? What's that have to do with it? Frankly, I'm offended. I've never owned a gun in my life or been around them. I'm unaware of that fact and I'm sickened by the thought of it.


What, you're offended because I said 'non-Americans'? Seriously?
 
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Brian in Mesa

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Slightly tangential and probably one for the Politics board but I'd prefer the US to ban guns i.e. have zero tolerance just like Australia where I'm from where we haven't had a gun death since they got outlawed. Talk about a successful policy.

Factoid - gun deaths are on track to exceed traffic fatalities in the US in the next few years...you have no idea how twisted that sounds to us non-Americans.

Let's definitely not debate this though because I'm never going to convince the unconvincable!

From everything I have read, guns are not completely outlawed in Australia.

Wikipedia:

A common misconception is that firearms are illegal in Australia and that no individual may possess them. While it's true that Australia has restrictive firearms laws, rifles and shotguns (including semi-automatic), as well as handguns are all legal within a narrow set of criteria.

As of 2007 about 5.2% of Australian adults (765,000 people) own and use firearms for purposes such as hunting, controlling feral animals, collecting, security work, and target shooting.

------------------------

This old article explains some of the policies in place there:

When will the US learn from Australia? Stricter gun control laws save lives

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...mass-murder-australia-gun-control-saves-lives

---------------------------

And there have been gun deaths since their policies changed...

Is Australia staring down the barrel of a gun crisis?

http://www.news.com.au/national/is-...-of-a-gun-crisis/story-fncynjr2-1226690018325

Figures from the Australian Bureau of Statistics show that firearms are being used more often in crime.
 

3rdside

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They're allowed for practical purposes as you've pointed out i.e. you can't own a gun just because. And I think it's the case that if you do own a gun (because you live on a farm etc) they have to be stored away under lock and key.

"Is Australia Staring Down the Barrel of a Gun Crisis" appears to be a senationalist headline as:

"Our rate of gun-related deaths is decreasing. Latest figures show guns account for just 1.06 deaths per 100,000 compared to 10.3 per 100,000 in the United States".

And I have no doubt we'll solve the issue via tougher gun laws, not by having more guns which is the other concept promoted by the gun-lobby that we non-americans (and other Americans I'm sure) struggle to get our head around.
 

SirStefan32

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They're allowed for practical purposes as you've pointed out i.e. you can't own a gun just because. And I think it's the case that if you do own a gun (because you live on a farm etc) they have to be stored away under lock and key.

"Is Australia Staring Down the Barrel of a Gun Crisis" appears to be a senationalist headline as:

"Our rate of gun-related deaths is decreasing. Latest figures show guns account for just 1.06 deaths per 100,000 compared to 10.3 per 100,000 in the United States".

And I have no doubt we'll solve the issue via tougher gun laws, not by having more guns which is the other concept promoted by the gun-lobby that we non-americans (and other Americans I'm sure) struggle to get our head around.

How about you take this to P&R forum? While you are at it, educate yourself on the subject of firearms so that you don't sound ignorant.
 

3rdside

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How about you take this to P&R forum? While you are at it, educate yourself on the subject of firearms so that you don't sound ignorant.



My hat off to you sir for such a well thought out response
 
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elindholm

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I think a person is innocent until proven guilty or pleads guilty. This would summarize my stance and why I try not to rush to judgement. I believe a person needs to be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

Okay. I'm sorry that you have found my tone arrogant, but we have a deep disagreement on this issue.

We have laws for lots of reasons, but a big one is that they enforce a moral code. If we think that killing people is wrong, we make a law saying you can't kill people. But the idea that killing people is wrong exists whether we have a law or not. The law reflects society's moral standards; it does not define them.

Let's say a guy runs up and stabs me in the leg, for no reason, then runs off. I can't track him down. After I recover from the injury, I make some attempt to get help from law enforcement. They can't find him either. The guy gets away with it, but he has still done something very wrong.

We abide by "innocent until proven guilty" for good reasons. There can be cases of mistaken identity, falsified testimony, extenuating circumstances. We want to reserve legal punishment for those cases where there is no reasonable doubt.

But that doesn't change the fact that there are lots of people out there getting away with murder (literally, in some cases), and what they are doing is still wrong. Legally guilty and morally guilty are not the same thing. People who are legally guilty deserve legal punishment; people who are morally guilty deserve our contempt.

Tucker was caught in the act. The report left no doubt that he was, in fact, driving the vehicle -- otherwise that would have gotten cleared up. It left no doubt that he had a BAC of way over the legal limit -- same situation. Morally, that's all you need to know. He was driving while falling-down drunk, and he has committed a grievous moral sin. End of story.

Now, did we know right away that he was legally guilty? No, because, as you pointed out, he had a chance to try to work loopholes in the legal system. But even had he escaped legal guilt, he was still morally guilty.

And I really don't care what his legal punishment is. He'll always be scum in my book, just like O. J. Simpson. By dumb luck, Tucker avoided actually killing anyone, but he's just as dangerous -- or moreso, really, since his victims will be chosen indiscriminately. Someone is not any less dead if they die in a reckless accident rather than at the hands of a jealous ex-husband.

If one takes things into their own hands they are on their own.

I agree that vigilantism can be a serious problem and needs to be discouraged. The legal system needs to run its course. And I also agree that we should not rush to judgment before we have all of the facts. The case of Richard Jewell is sobering.

But we had all of the facts in this case, because this case was very simple. He was caught in the act, terribly drunk, driving. Those are all of the facts you need. Are they enough for a legal conviction, well maybe not. But are they enough to be convicted in the court of public opinion, you'd better believe it.

If you walk in on your wife having intercourse with another man, you don't need a legal trial to determine what happened. Tucker was caught with his pants down, screwing the entire community. We all knew it as soon as the early reports weren't refuted.
 
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Superbone

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What, you're offended because I said 'non-Americans'? Seriously?

Yes, seriously. You really don't get it? Let me spell it out for you. You're implying that all Americans are fine with increasing gun violence. It's only outsiders who think it's "twisted". Contrary to what you might believe, all Americans aren't gun-toting fools running around in 10-gallon hats.
 

3rdside

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Yes, seriously. You really don't get it? Let me spell it out for you. You're implying that all Americans are fine with increasing gun violence. It's only outsiders who think it's "twisted". Contrary to what you might believe, all Americans aren't gun-toting fools running around in 10-gallon hats.

Why would I think that? I spoke only for non-americans because I am one; I have absolutely no doubt that there are a ton of americans who think that way, it's just that I'm not one of them. Perhaps I should have been clearer but maybe a more 'clarity-seeking' response from your good self first would have helped; I was slightly offended that you were offended :).
 

AzStevenCal

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Never had a beer in my life, so count me out on this line of thinking as well.

Really???? How does this happen?:shock:

After 27 tequila shots who needs a beer? J/K

I can't make the same claim as Brian but I haven't had alcohol in more than two decades. I wasn't an alcoholic, I didn't go through some trauma, I just reached a point in my life where I was too busy to drink. After a few years I realized there was no reason to bring booze back into my life.

Steve
 

elindholm

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(Brian in Mesa) Never had a beer in my life, so count me out on this line of thinking as well.

Really???? How does this happen?:shock:

Mormons don't drink. I don't know whether Brian is Mormon, but that's a likely explanation.
 
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