Playoffs: Suns @ Clippers Saturday game thread 4-22-2023 - Game 4

[Raindog]

Yeah but we had a lot higher picks under Ryan as we lived through the worst years in Suns history and he made little out of it. The picks he traded for Christ and Knight, the picks he wasted on Bender, Jackson and so many more. No other GM in Suns history has had the draft opportunities Ryan had nor the lack of success.

Yeah, but the point is it wasn't all just McDonough. The earlier Sarver era set the precedent of not giving a crap about the draft, and not scouting or developing young talent. That attitude was cultivated by both Sarver and D'Antoni, who for varying reasons never took the draft seriously and set a foundation of the team never seemingly having younger talent to build with. We probably could have absorbed at least a couple bad drafts under McD if the previous regimes hadn't also been bunglers.

And of course that attitude seems to have carried on to Jones and Monty, who have also been very flippant about the draft, aside from the isolated good choice of Cam J.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yeah, but the point is it wasn't all just McDonough. The earlier Sarver era set the precedent of not giving a crap about the draft, and not scouting or developing young talent. That attitude was cultivated by both Sarver and D'Antoni, who for varying reasons never took the draft seriously and set a foundation of the team never seemingly having younger talent to build with. We probably could have absorbed at least a couple bad drafts under McD if the previous regimes hadn't also been bunglers.

And of course that attitude seems to have carried on to Jones and Monty, who have also been very flippant about the draft, aside from the isolated good choice of Cam J.

Okay but we were missing on picks that were mostly in the 20's back when Dantoni, BC or Kerr was here, most teams do miss on them most of the time. Under Ryan though we were missing on high picks. I get your point, Sarver bad, and I agree. But Ryan was bad on sterioids.

Under JJ's tenure, we sold off the G League team and downgraded our scouting efforts even more to where we were focusing solely on NBA players. Whether that was JJ's idea or penny pinching by Sarver we may never know. Regardless, I doubt it will matter much. Even if JJ is retained I don't believe he'll have much power under Ishbia.

 

[GatorAZ]

Yeah, but the point is it wasn't all just McDonough. The earlier Sarver era set the precedent of not giving a crap about the draft, and not scouting or developing young talent. That attitude was cultivated by both Sarver and D'Antoni, who for varying reasons never took the draft seriously and set a foundation of the team never seemingly having younger talent to build with. We probably could have absorbed at least a couple bad drafts under McD if the previous regimes hadn't also been bunglers.

And of course that attitude seems to have carried on to Jones and Monty, who have also been very flippant about the draft, aside from the isolated good choice of Cam J.

Sarver/D’Antoni ignoring the draft wasn’t the problem. The problem with that era was selling them instead of trading them for quality depth players because he didn’t want to pay higher L-Tax penalties. I remember there being plenty of rotation players available that could’ve put us over the top. I don’t put Mike’s thin rotations solely on him.

 

[Phrazbit]

Sarver/D’Antoni ignoring the draft wasn’t the problem. The problem with that era was selling them instead of trading them for quality depth players because he didn’t want to pay higher L-Tax penalties. I remember there being plenty of rotation players available that could’ve put us over the top. I don’t put Mike’s thin rotations solely on him.

You're right that Sarver sold picks and dumped guys like Kurt Thomas (with picks) to save himself money, even though the team was in contention, but Mike D was notorious for over working his starters.

He did it everywhere, every season he coached. In the playoffs he almost exclusively ran an 8 man rotation... and often 7.5 in effect, one of those guys typically only seeing a handful of minutes.

Spurs 110-107 Rockets (May 9, 2017) Box Score - ESPN

Box score for the San Antonio Spurs vs. Houston Rockets NBA game from May 9, 2017 on ESPN. Includes all points, rebounds and steals stats.

www.espn.com

Lakers 113-106 Trail Blazers (Apr 10, 2013) Box Score - ESPN

Box score for the Los Angeles Lakers vs. Portland Trail Blazers NBA game from April 10, 2013 on ESPN. Includes all points, rebounds and steals stats.

www.espn.com

Suns 104-98 Spurs (May 14, 2007) Box Score - ESPN

Box score for the Phoenix Suns vs. San Antonio Spurs NBA game from May 14, 2007 on ESPN. Includes all points, rebounds and steals stats.

www.espn.com

That last one is the "hip check" game...

The one year he made it with the Knicks he DID extend his bench a bit... but ironically, it looks like it was because he actually had zero depth and was trying to find anything that worked as they got steamrolled out of the playoffs.

Celtics 113-96 Knicks (Apr 22, 2011) Box Score - ESPN

Box score for the Boston Celtics vs. New York Knicks NBA game from April 22, 2011 on ESPN. Includes all points, rebounds and steals stats.

www.espn.com

 

[Raindog]

You're right that Sarver sold picks and dumped guys like Kurt Thomas (with picks) to save himself money, even though the team was in contention, but Mike D was notorious for over working his starters.

He did it everywhere, every season he coached. In the playoffs he almost exclusively ran an 8 man rotation... and often 7.5 in effect, one of those guys typically only seeing a handful of minutes.

Spurs 110-107 Rockets (May 9, 2017) Box Score - ESPN

Box score for the San Antonio Spurs vs. Houston Rockets NBA game from May 9, 2017 on ESPN. Includes all points, rebounds and steals stats.

www.espn.com

Lakers 113-106 Trail Blazers (Apr 10, 2013) Box Score - ESPN

Box score for the Los Angeles Lakers vs. Portland Trail Blazers NBA game from April 10, 2013 on ESPN. Includes all points, rebounds and steals stats.

www.espn.com

Suns 104-98 Spurs (May 14, 2007) Box Score - ESPN

Box score for the Phoenix Suns vs. San Antonio Spurs NBA game from May 14, 2007 on ESPN. Includes all points, rebounds and steals stats.

www.espn.com

That last one is the "hip check" game...

The one year he made it with the Knicks he DID extend his bench a bit... but ironically, it looks like it was because he actually had zero depth and was trying to find anything that worked as they got steamrolled out of the playoffs.

Celtics 113-96 Knicks (Apr 22, 2011) Box Score - ESPN

Box score for the Boston Celtics vs. New York Knicks NBA game from April 22, 2011 on ESPN. Includes all points, rebounds and steals stats.

www.espn.com

Exactly... it was a two-pronged problem. D'Antoni didn't like bench players, role players, anyone who didn't fit his "run and shoot" philosophy... or (on point to this topic) rookies. Which is exactly why he engineered dumping all those draft picks while Sarver was letting him run the team. Don't forget the whole shenanigans of trading out of the high pick we got from Atlanta for Joe Johnson. It could have been used on Luol Deng, Andre Iguodala, or any number of other young players that would have elevated those teams, but D'Antoni kept dumping it for lesser and lesser return until it eventually turned it into quite literally nothing... just like he wanted.

The other part of the issue was of course cheap Sarver, who was quite happy to sell off draft picks, forego using the MLE and other roster exemptions, and basically squeeze Lincoln's face off every penny he could no matter how much it impacted the team's chances of winning.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Exactly... it was a two-pronged problem. D'Antoni didn't like bench players, role players, anyone who didn't fit his "run and shoot" philosophy... or (on point to this topic) rookies. Which is exactly why he engineered dumping all those draft picks while Sarver was letting him run the team. Don't forget the whole shenanigans of trading out of the high pick we got from Atlanta for Joe Johnson. It could have been used on Luol Deng, Andre Iguodala, or any number of other young players that would have elevated those teams, but D'Antoni kept dumping it for lesser and lesser return until it eventually turned it into quite literally nothing... just like he wanted.

The other part of the issue was of course cheap Sarver, who was quite happy to sell off draft picks, forego using the MLE and other roster exemptions, and basically squeeze Lincoln's face off every penny he could no matter how much it impacted the team's chances of winning.

Every GM that operated under Sarver knew they had a mandate to keep expenses down. I suspect much of what was done by each of these GMs that the fans detest was due to that mandate whether it was selling picks or trading away useful players. I'm not saying any of the GMs are blameless, I just think the lion's share lands on Robert's doorstep, especially any action taken prior to that first huge (game changing) TV contract.

 

[Raindog]

Every GM that operated under Sarver knew they had a mandate to keep expenses down. I suspect much of what was done by each of these GMs that the fans detest was due to that mandate whether it was selling picks or trading away useful players. I'm not saying any of the GMs are blameless, I just think the lion's share lands on Robert's doorstep, especially any action taken prior to that first huge (game changing) TV contract.

Well, you won't get any argument from me as to who the worst of the worst is. I still have to spit on the ground every time Sarver's name gets mentioned.