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Irish

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http://emuss.blogspot.com/2008/08/where-have-all-point-guards-gone.html

Where have all the point guards gone?

By Eric Musselman

In their weekly email the other day, the Santa Clara coaches had a note from Steve Nash, who played at SC, about the importance of a point guard: "A point guard sets the table for everybody; he makes other players believe in themselves."

Unfortunately, there are few young players who play the PG position with Nash's mentality. In fact, I read a good story last year in the NY Times on the dearth of point guards.


"Great guard play wins games in March, or so the cliché goes. [But point guards] have become more the exception than the rule in recent years. Coaches, N.B.A. scouts and talent evaluators say there are a variety of reasons why the pass-first point guard seems to have gone missing.

But the primary reason they point to is that a generation of players weaned on Allen Iverson crossovers does not value passing as an art.

Before the N.B.A. established an age limit last year, high school stars — especially the taller ones — were flying to the pros, leaving the college game virtually void of talented big men. The impact of the draft rule has been obvious during this N.C.A.A. tournament, which has showcased players 6-foot-9 and above, like Ohio State’s Greg Oden, Texas’ Kevin Durant and North Carolina’s Brandan Wright.

But the less publicized and perhaps even more meaningful trend in the college game has been the absence of pass-first leaders at the point-guard position the past few years.

Traditional point guards like Bobby Hurley, Kenny Anderson and Mateen Cleaves, who dominated past N.C.A.A. tournaments, have become as rare in college basketball as thigh-hugging shorts. Since 2000, the number of players averaging more than seven assists a game has decreased from 11 to 2."

So where have all the point guards gone?

According to coaches and experts quoted in the NYT article there are a couple of key explanations:

1. An increased emphasis on scoring: "In an era of highlight dunks and a college 3-point line that has been called too close to the basket, the craft of running a team and distributing the ball is not viewed as being glamorous." Said Sonics assistant GM Troy Weaver: “I think Allen Iverson messed up the game. All these little guys dribble around instead of passing the ball.”

2. The need to "get noticed": "Tennessee coach Bruce Pearl said that many talented high school players avoided playing point guard to bolster their exposure to college coaches. Many guards, he said, believe the only way they can get noticed is by scoring points."

3. Negative perceptions of PGs: The article quotes Grizzlies PG Mike Conley who says, “If you’re not a scoring point guard, people don’t think of you as highly. They don’t think of you as the type that’s going to make an impact in college because you’re not trying to score 20 points a game. You’re more trying to get 10 assists.”

Coaches agree that playing the PG position requires not only a particular skill-set, but a certain mindset. Said Texas coach Rick Barnes, who's coached point guards T.J. Ford, Daniel Gibson, and D.J. Augustin:

“They see things a little bit differently. The ones that I’ve been around have been very, very unselfish.”

Unfortunately, most young players today don't share Nash's "table-setting" mentality. In the words of Milan Brown, coach at Mount St. Mary's: “No one wants to set the table anymore. Everyone wants to eat.”

In his career, Nash has had 6787 assists in 26,533 minutes for a rate of 0.256 per minute. In 2007-08 it was 0.323. Here are some other assist per minute rates:

Nash 0.323
Deron Williams 0.282
Jason Kidd 0.273
TJ Ford 0.261 (only 1199 minutes)
Chris Paul 0.258

Tony Parker 0.178
Rafer Alston 0.155
Derek Fisher 0.106
 
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YouJustGotSUNSD

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I dont know how anyone can say PGs arent important in the upper tier of basketball operations.

I dont agree with the article at all, I think the PG is highly valued, respected, and sought after at all levels of the sport. Just as many moved this offseason as forwards and centers
 
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Irish

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In Musselman's defense, the number of "pass first" point guards taken in the draft was pretty low: Rose, Chalmers, Hill, Singletary, and Dragic. George Hill was taken by SA in the First Round and he haveraged only 3 assists in 31.7 minutes in Summer League.

What Conley and others are talking about is the mentality of young guys. The money goes to guys who can score. NBA GM's will try to convert big guards into PG's; but they have to be able to score. Nash is considered a great "pass first" point guard, but his status is elevated by the fact that he can score a lot if he chooses.
 

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In the NBA, anyone who is not a threat to score is a liability. From my perspective, the difference between a "pass-first" point guard (Nash) who can also score and a "scoring" point guard who excels at setting up his teammates (Paul, Marbury in his prime) is part media-generated myth, part a product of the system in which the PG plays.

The days of the Kidds and Avery Johnsons, PGs who defer to teammates because they themselves are not reliable scorers, are gone. Defenses are simply too sophisticated for such a weakness to be tolerable. So then the question of how much the player scores and how much he passes comes down to which option the defense is less preoccupied with stopping.
 
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Irish

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In the NBA, anyone who is not a threat to score is a liability. From my perspective, the difference between a "pass-first" point guard (Nash) who can also score and a "scoring" point guard who excels at setting up his teammates (Paul, Marbury in his prime) is part media-generated myth, part a product of the system in which the PG plays.

The days of the Kidds and Avery Johnsons, PGs who defer to teammates because they themselves are not reliable scorers, are gone. Defenses are simply too sophisticated for such a weakness to be tolerable. So then the question of how much the player scores and how much he passes comes down to which option the defense is less preoccupied with stopping.

I can't remember when Marbury set up his teammates, but I'll take your word for it.

It certainly sounds like the Suns agree with Eric's perspective since Strawberry's failure seems to be due to his terrible shooting. Nobody would guard him and he had more trouble getting assists this year than last because of it. Singletary didn't shoot very well either, but he showed a lot more offense in college than Strawberry.
 

elindholm

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I can't remember when Marbury set up his teammates, but I'll take your word for it.

8+ assists per game don't lie. After his first several seasons, Marbury was somewhere around 7th in the history of the league in assists per game.
 
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8+ assists per game don't lie. After his first several seasons, Marbury was somewhere around 7th in the history of the league in assists per game.

I always found the Marbury assist numbers deceptive. His main was of getting assists was kick out off drives to the basket. In Amare he had one of the best finishers in the game, but never seemed able to find him. Marbury admitted he couldn't throw an "Aalley Oop" pass if his like depended on it and he seemed unable to run the break. Instead, he would jump the gun when someone would try to set a pick and must of led the league in creating "moving pick" calls when with the Suns.

Assists does not describe the way the offense is run. The issue is much the same as with Iverson.

2004-05 7.9 apg
2005-06 7.4 apg
2006-07 7.3 apg
2007-08 7.1 apg
 

elindholm

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I always found the Marbury assist numbers deceptive.

I know you have, but that doesn't change the fact that he was setting up his teammates better than all but a handful of players in history. Your take on Marbury's status as a PG is based mainly on your desire to discredit his accomplishments, not on what he actually brought to the floor.

Assists does not describe the way the offense is run.

Yes, that was one of the points I was making.

The issue is much the same as with Iverson.

What Iverson's numbers show are that Iverson can be a very good distributor when that is what the offense asks of him. He is such a prolific scorer, however, that it's usually better for his team when he takes on more of the scoring responsibility himself.
 

BC867

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What Iverson's numbers show are that Iverson can be a very good distributor when that is what the offense asks of him. He is such a prolific scorer, however, that it's usually better for his team when he takes on more of the scoring responsibility himself.
To a point. Being the best pure shooter on the team, as is Nash, is not the same as taking on more of the scoring responsibility, as did Kevin Johnson, for example.

If the Point Guard hogs the ball, the rest of the team starts standing around on offfense. Or, as in the case of KJ and the Chuckster, it causes animosity on the team.

Barkely nicknamed Kevin Johnson "Franchise, Jr." to appease him, when KJ's pride should have come from primarily being the distributor.
 
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Irish

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Eric, why do YOU think Marbury is rumored to being dumped by the Knicks?

This is hardly news and after signing Duhon and Robertson this summer on top of Mardy Collins, Nate Robinson, and Jamal Crawford who were supposed to be able to play the poin; it sure looks like they are preparing for life after Marbury.
 

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Eric, why do YOU think Marbury is rumored to being dumped by the Knicks?

Obviously Marbury is nowhere near the player he was in his prime. The succession of Brown and Thomas as head coaches -- the first ruthlessly cruel, the second blindingly incompetent -- has completely wrecked his confidence and crushed his will. (The astute observer will recognize that Marbury is far from the only Knick for which this is true.) We can chalk that up to a psychological failing, if we like, but it doesn't take away from how productive he was early in his career.

By the way, the reason Marbury never became an elite player wasn't that he was "too selfish" or shot too often, but that he didn't shoot well enough. His penetrate-and-dish play was extremely effective, but it was pretty much all he had. His three-point percentage (.326 career) is well below the standards of starting guards, and he never developed a punishing mid-range jumper like Cassell or Kevin Johnson. He's also below average from the line (.785).

Among current top-flight NBA point guards, Marbury is probably most similar to Parker. The differences are that Parker is a much better mid-range scorer and plays on a vastly superior team -- but can only dream of approaching Marbury's assist average, which still places him in the top 15 all-time, even after his last three lost seasons.
 

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Among current top-flight NBA point guards, Marbury is probably most similar to Parker. The differences are that Parker is a much better mid-range scorer and plays on a vastly superior team -- but can only dream of approaching Marbury's assist average, which still places him in the top 15 all-time, even after his last three lost seasons.

I vaguely recall that Marbury was trying the teardrop shots when we almost eliminated Spurs in the first round and he humiliated Parker before getting shoulder injured in game 3 or 4. One or two years later, Parker mastered the teardrop better than anyone in the league and Marbury hasn't been seen using it very often. That's unfortunate indeed.
 
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Irish

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I'll admit I turned on Marbury after watching him brick so many three point shots without even trying to run his offense.

It is curious that the two guys Larry Brown had the most trouble with was Iverson and Marbury. Since LB had a lot of success with other guys, I am left wondering what exactly was happening.

The comparison of Marbury to Parker is interesting. IMHO, Parker is vastly quicker than Marbury ever was and scores under the basket in a way that Marbury couldn't.
 

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It is curious that the two guys Larry Brown had the most trouble with was Iverson and Marbury. Since LB had a lot of success with other guys, I am left wondering what exactly was happening.

Well, sure, if you believe all of the hype on Brown, it's only logical that you sneer at Iverson and Marbury. But for all of Brown's braggadocio about his unique insights on "how the game should be played," he has a grand total of one NBA title to show for it, and has been run out of every town he has deigned to grace with his presence. To me, the evidence suggests that Brown isn't quite the genius he thinks himself to be, and that his feuds with star players aren't quite so one-sided as the media is inclined to portray them.

All that said, it's clear that Marbury has a difficult personality. On the other hand, the list of players with difficult personalities who have still managed to be very effective on the court is long. A true coach figures out how to get the most out of his players, rather than spend all his energy waging public relations wars in the press.

If you're going to swallow everything Brown says hook, line, and sinker, then we really have no basis for a discussion.
 

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