Poter's "new system"

[Arizona's Finest]

I can agree with the above statement. I just wish DA could have had that opportunity in Phoenix.

DA was judged after only four full seasons whereas Sloan is toiling over 20+ without a Championship. To summarize my feelings about DA, I felt the Suns had four great seasons under DA and I would have liked to have kept him at least a couple more seasons to see where the team was headed. Of course in retrospect this would have been impossible with Kerr riding his back. I think you would agree that DA is trying to build something in NY with mostly scrubs and rejects in his first season there. I would really like DA to be coaching the current Suns... but nothing against Porter.

Good post. I am in 100% agreeance.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

To me Cheese it seems you are leading the charge around the "what have you done for me lately?" react first think later mindset that is so typical in the espn age.

I don't necessairly disagree with many of your points. In fact you make some good ones. But I would say you would be hard pressed to find a guy who got as much as he did of the players here in Phoenix.

You make the case about 1st team All NBA'ers and MVP's he coached that made him look like a genius- well who exactly was the coach who got them to play at that level? Its not like Nash was a 3 time MVP before he got here and STAT was no doubt 1st team ALL NBA before Mike. Should PJAX not get some credit because MJ won multiple MVPS - while he played under Phil?

I think the biggest reason he got fired was not his production and what he got out of the team. It was his pride and inability to be flexible with Kerr. That is ultimately what undid him. I'm pissed as hell he wouldn't try to incorporate Thibedeou onto the staff or hold more players accountable once it started to get out of control.

But in terms of coaching? He is one of the five best in the league IMO. I would like for him to have been the constant and the players rotated and I think many are saying the same.

 

[Cheesebeef]

To me Cheese it seems you are leading the charge around the "what have you done for me lately?" react first think later mindset that is so typical in the espn age.

I don't necessairly disagree with many of your points. In fact you make some good ones. But I would say you would be hard pressed to find a guy who got as much as he did of the players here in Phoenix.

You make the case about 1st team All NBA'ers and MVP's he coached that made him look like a genius- well who exactly was the coach who got them to play at that level?

whoa, whoa, whoa. I didn't say anything about Nash, Amare, et all made him look like a genius. There was definitely a symbiotic relationship where all benefitted from each other and I've never said otherwise, ESPECIALLY with Nash. As far as Amare and Marion? I don't know. I believe Amare's growth defensively might have been stunted by DA and I know Marion's game never got any better when DA got here. It's like those two guys weren't incredibly talented players before DA. And DA didn't do much as far as JJ was concerned as we already saw what he was starting to become in 2003-4 and we see how he's continued to ascend without him.

But Barbs and Diaw (for one year) he got the most out of without a doubt. Probably Raja too.

I think the biggest reason he got fired was not his production and what he got out of the team. It was his pride and inability to be flexible with Kerr.

I can agree with this for the most part.

But in terms of coaching? He is one of the five best in the league IMO.

I guess the way I look at it this:

Brilliant HCs:
PJ
Pop

Really good HC:
Adelman
Sloan

Good coaches who the jurie's out on teetering between good and really good:
Mike DA
Byron Scott
Rick Carlysle

It just seems like if anyone makes ANY kind of criticism of DA (even while saying he's a good coach) according to some here, that means that person automatically thinks DA is complete and utter dog-crap. your post doesn't and I welcome more posts like it on the topic, but man, the people that take it so personal and tend to either attack or distort other's opinions is bordering on Warner-phile territory.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Add Nate McMillan to the last tier imo

 

[Cheesebeef]

Add Nate McMillan to the last tier imo

eh. I'm not completely sold on Nate. Not at the level of DA and Byron anyway. Probably just a tier below.

 

[Errntknght]

My thoughts on Mike D'Antoni.

If I wanted a coach that could take any group of players and get them playing well together as quickly as possible Mike would be my first choice. Why? Because he doesn't overwhelm them with technical details or ask them to run precision plays. He has a general philosophy that he wants them to follow but beyond that he gives them freedom to just play basketball. Most players enjoy that - and most of them like to run fast up and down the court, too, which is a huge part of his philosophy. With few technical details he can have short practices and does, so he winds up taking a lot of the physical and mental drudgery out of the game. Happy players play better.

Then along come the seven game playoff series and opposing coaches know there is a big payoff in forcing teams to go away from their preferred shots and moves. Since they're facing the same team game after game its worth the investment in time and effort. Its too late to change his philosophy and there isn't a structure within which to implement counter moves. He's pretty much reliant on the individual players adapting - though coaches can help them. Mike can still change defensive assignments and, from what we've seen, he does that fairly well. Now a significantly inferior team is not going to run roughshod over his guys but against comparable talent he's at a disadvantage and as the series goes on that particular disadvantage increases.

Take away seven game playoff series and Mike will look better. Shorten the season and he'll look better yet because his philosophy doesn't depend on constant honing of technical skills. Voila, the Euroleagues!

I've said almost from the beginning that Mike is undone by his great success in European basketball. His ideas worked so well he devoutly believes in them and does not consider adapting to the realities of the NBA. Seven players are enough - not only are there many fewer games they are each 17% shorter. Without multi-game playoff series adapting to what the other team does is not of great import. In Europe D'Antoni was brilliant, in the NBA he's 'interesting'.

I like uptempo basketball - I starting following the Celtics a year or two before they got Bill Russell and his sidekick, KC Jones, from USF. They didn't run quite as much as the Suns but they were the leading 'fast break' team of that era by a healthy margin. But they also played defense and were demons on the boards. I'm thankful to Mike for making the uptempo game relevant again in the NBA, but it was torture watching his teams' ineptness on the boards and on the defensive end in general. And seeing them dragging around the floor in the fourth quarter. Last year, for the first time since the Suns began forty odd years ago, I didn't watch all of the games that were broadcast or go in person to any of them - that's how painful it was for me. The same course was being taken and entailed the same final result.

I'm happy for you guys that found his teams endlessly entertaining but I'm thrilled that he is gone - though I might enjoy watching some of the Knicks game's this year because I do like the style.

 

[Cheesebeef]

My thoughts on Mike D'Antoni.

If I wanted a coach that could take any group of players and get them playing well together as quickly as possible Mike would be my first choice. Why? Because he doesn't overwhelm them with technical details or ask them to run precision plays. He has a general philosophy that he wants them to follow but beyond that he gives them freedom to just play basketball. Most players enjoy that - and most of them like to run fast up and down the court, too, which is a huge part of his philosophy. With few technical details he can have short practices and does, so he winds up taking a lot of the physical and mental drudgery out of the game. Happy players play better.

Then along come the seven game playoff series and opposing coaches know there is a big payoff in forcing teams to go away from their preferred shots and moves. Since they're facing the same team game after game its worth the investment in time and effort. Its too late to change his philosophy and there isn't a structure within which to implement counter moves. He's pretty much reliant on the individual players adapting - though coaches can help them. Mike can still change defensive assignments and, from what we've seen, he does that fairly well. Now a significantly inferior team is not going to run roughshod over his guys but against comparable talent he's at a disadvantage and as the series goes on that particular disadvantage increases.

Take away seven game playoff series and Mike will look better. Shorten the season and he'll look better yet because his philosophy doesn't depend on constant honing of technical skills. Voila, the Euroleagues!

I've said almost from the beginning that Mike is undone by his great success in European basketball. His ideas worked so well he devoutly believes in them and does not consider adapting to the realities of the NBA. Seven players are enough - not only are there many fewer games they are each 17% shorter. Without multi-game playoff series adapting to what the other team does is not of great import. In Europe D'Antoni was brilliant, in the NBA he's 'interesting'.

I like uptempo basketball - I starting following the Celtics a year or two before they got Bill Russell and his sidekick, KC Jones, from USF. They didn't run quite as much as the Suns but they were the leading 'fast break' team of that era by a healthy margin. But they also played defense and were demons on the boards. I'm thankful to Mike for making the uptempo game relevant again in the NBA, but it was torture watching his teams' ineptness on the boards and on the defensive end in general. And seeing them dragging around the floor in the fourth quarter. Last year, for the first time since the Suns began forty odd years ago, I didn't watch all of the games that were broadcast or go in person to any of them - that's how painful it was for me. The same course was being taken and entailed the same final result.

I'm happy for you guys that found his teams endlessly entertaining but I'm thrilled that he is gone - though I might enjoy watching some of the Knicks game's this year because I do like the style.

this is a really well thought out post and I agree with it whole-heartedly.

 

[hafey]

I second that.

 

[CardNots]

I can agree with the above statement. I just wish DA could have had that opportunity in Phoenix.

DA was judged after only four full seasons whereas Sloan is toiling over 20+ without a Championship. To summarize my feelings about DA, I felt the Suns had four great seasons under DA and I would have liked to have kept him at least a couple more seasons to see where the team was headed. Of course in retrospect this would have been impossible with Kerr riding his back. I think you would agree that DA is trying to build something in NY with mostly scrubs and rejects in his first season there. I would really like DA to be coaching the current Suns... but nothing against Porter.

Last year I visited a winery in NAPA. We were in a picnic area with tables. There was no open tables so we sat with a family from the area. They were basketball fans. The discussion ended up on the SUNS. They were Kings fans, but all they could talk about was how they never missed an opportunity to watch the SUNS play. They loved the style of basketball win or lose.

So whatever is said, I'll always have a lot of respect for DA because of this. As for myself, it really is hard to watch a SUNs game. I'll check the score every so often, but life after DA hasn't been as exciting.

As for Sloan, I have always admired him for what he did with so little. DA hasn't been a coach long enough for me to compare.

 

[mojorizen7]

I second that.

I third it.

 

[DeAnna]

Interesting article on USA Today about the transition to the different style. Some interesting parts (and, of course, Shaq again making reference to his touches):

Without D'Antoni, the team lapsed into "athletic culture shock," O'Neal says.
Training camp was longer and more demanding. Once the season commenced, players chafed under the revamped structure. The Suns were listless, began hanging their heads and grumbling — sometimes loudly. Stoudemire expressed his frustration with his role.
"Some guys talked out of school," Porter says. "That was disappointing, so we talked about keeping family issues in-house."

The road map was filled with potholes as Porter tried to blend divergent player styles and egos. He was met with resistance during a turbulent first month. Players griped. Play deteriorated. Turnovers came in torrents.
"I don't think anyone in a Suns jersey 'bought in' from Day 1," ABC analyst Mark Jackson says.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/suns/2008-12-17-cover-shaq_N.htm