Predicted Division Final Standings

[elindholm]

HE FORCED SHAQ TO GET TRADED.

Huh? O'Neal was traded because Buss didn't want to give him an extension.

As far as Bryant's alleged high-school antics go, everyone is immature in high school.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Kobe is great and Odom is pretty good. Beyond that, the Lakers are not a particularly talented team with minimal depth. Unless someone has a breakout year, this looks like a 40 win team to me.

George you underestimate Kobe Bryant.....

 

[fordronken]

HE FORCED SHAQ TO GET TRADED.

Huh? O'Neal was traded because Buss didn't want to give him an extension.

As far as Bryant's alleged high-school antics go, everyone is immature in high school.

No, it's true. Also, Marbury is selfish and won't pass either.

 

[SactownSunsFan]

The only thing I'd point out is that you have the Pacific Division finishing a combined 54 games over .500. Are they really going to be that much better than the rest of the league?

Why not? Last year the Southwest Division was a combined 53 games over 500, and if you take the woefully pathetic Hornets out of the equation they were a combined 99 games over 500. If you replace the Hornets with either of the Warriors or the Lakers from last year they'd have been a combined 85 games over 500. I think 54 games over 500 for the Pacific Division this year is a possibility because there isn't a real dreadful team here. They'll all beat up on the East sans Miami, Detroit, New Jersey and Indiana to get some wins.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I can recall three instances where that proposition is challenged. First, Phil Jackson ripped Kobe in the media for allegedly keeping games close when he was in high school, just so he could finish the games with last second heroics. I remember that this took place right after Kobe either refused to read or refused to take to heart a book Phil gave him to read.

Second, after being criticized for shooting too much and not passing enough, he essentially refused to shoot one game and forced passes rather than take open shots. Third, HE FORCED SHAQ TO GET TRADED. For all his talent and potential, Kobe Bryant is still a spoiled, selfish, immature, child in a very talented man's body. That is not to say that Kobe will not try to play well with the team, but he has done nothing to show that he is above throwing a selfish little tantrum when he does not think that the world is worshiping him enough for his liking.

This is what people need to understand when calling Kobe "immature, selfish, and spoiled” He is the most driven athlete in sports today. The things he does to succeed (or what he consider success in his mind) is what lead to the other adjectives to be used. I am not a Kobe apologist by any means but the guy has been railed on a little bit too much lately. My contention is that Shaq gets way too much of a free pass because of his child like nature, but the “Big Parthenon” knows what he is doing, and he has a very large role in all this garbage that has since taken place and put Kobe in a bad light. (ok the rape trial did not help but if every NBA guy who cheated on his wife was publicly hung, we would be watching one on one matchups between AC Green and Jake Voshkul all day)



Look past the spin and media hype for a second guys and think about another player who is narcissitic, manically competitive, and basically just a “con man” as Jeff Van Gundy so accurately pointed out. Micheal Jordan only gets the adulation he did because he never had to deal with the spot light shining on someone else and the situation he stepped into. He had it after his rookie season. Give Kobe three years with Dean Smith and you have the same thing, as he would have been a tour de force and no one would be asking him to dump the ball into Shaq. You think MJ would have passed the ball to Shaq. The guy is a winner by every definition but thats because winning always went through him. Jordan was very much aware of his legacy and its partially why Pippen will never get the credit he probaly deserves.

MJ changed once Phil came in AND BASED THE OFFENSE AROUND MIKE. This is a big deal. Some of you need to read the Phil book because despite the sensationalistic nature of the media, Phil actually comes across as someone who really respects Kobe as a player and he knows they will only go as far as he takes them. He did make comments but in my mind they are not irreconcilable differences. (BTW my favorite excerpt from the book is when he talks about proposing Kidd and Marion for Kobe…..who knows what might have been had that deal gone through).


My point is that Lakeshowman is right, this is Kobe’s first off-season in three years he can dedicate himself like he had previously. And now he has a coach who believes in him and will proselytize him now that he needs Kobe to succeed. Phil is a master of psychology and he would not have come back if he thought it had gone too far. His legacy is on the line too. Knowledgeable NBA fans look to this year to see how Kobe does with his “own” team with the circumstances and coach being much more fitting for a turnaround. Last year will only make him more crazed to win and I really believe he will buy in. He has too.



Which brings me to my final point. George mentioned the depth and talent concern the Lakers squad currently has but looks back at the Bulls roster from Jordan’s days. Bill Cartwright, John Paxson, Craig Hodges, BJ Armstrong, Bill Wennington, Luc Longley and even Ho Grant are all garbage until they came to the Bulls. I will make the case that this Lakers squad is much more talented than the Bulls and this is what will decide if the Lakers are top 4 or bottom 4 playoff team (notice I left out the possibility of them missing the playoffs altogether, barring injury of course) I believe Kobe can fill the MJ role in the triangle and I believe LO has the skills to fill Pippens role. Now who knows if Odom actually puts that work in, but his last success was under the watch of another coach he respected and played his heart out for. Pat Riley. It remains to be seen if Phil inspires that kind of hustle.



So in closing, don’t be surprised if Kobe has a MONSTER year and gets MVP looks (top 3) if I am in fact correct about the Lakers being the surprise of the NBA. Before you discount my picks, know that the I had the Kansas City Chiefs in this years Super Bowl (although Denver had their way last night) and I had the Bengals winning their division. Remember this thread, chap……………………

 

[LakeShowMan]

Lakeshow, it sounds like you have some expectations for Kwame otherwise you couldn't be so confident that Odom will be back at SF. If Kwame is only a bit player (and Bynum doesn't miraculously mature) who is going to join Mihm manning the the PF & C slots?

What I mean by expectations, is that I am not going to fall into the trap of looking at his physical gifts and claim he will come in and be a 15 and 9 guy. Does he have that ability? Absolutely. Is he there mentally? He hasn't proven that yet. I have actually seen him play some impressive games. Last year was disconcerting, but he is still young.

I think PF by commitee is what the Lakers will do. Kwame will start. Odom can play there, but as I said he is best served at the 3. He played the 4 so much last year, mostly because we needed to get Caron on the floor, and we had about 10 SF. We have paired it down a little more at that position. Brian Cook will get time at the 4 as well. He is a defensive liability, but will be a great big man in the tri because of his ability to knock down jumpers. Other than Chucky, he was the best 3 point shooter on the team last year. I pray every day that Slava won't get in, but he'll have to take minutes there as well. I would have loved to see Turiaf get minutes, because he would have been a more athletic Mark Madsen and would have gotten a lot of quality minutes. Sadly his heart condition has left him unavailable.

I am not as worried about the 4 as I am the 5. Mihm played very well in home games last year, but was ALWAYS in foul trouble on the road. Bynum is not ready, although I was pleasantly surprised with him in the summer league. This is the position that scares the hell out of me.

With that said, who is out there at the center position anymore? Other then Shaq (who is starting to look more and more like the 'Big Role Player' these days) and Yao, the whole league is filled with junk centers.

With the trianlge, we will be able to score even with out the dominant pivot guy. Kobe will finally be able to take the 'Jordan role' in the triangle that he has been begging for forever. He'll be doing a lot of posting, and get to work a lot on the baseline where it is harder to double and easier to find open shooters.

Now defensively is a where we'll have issues. We still don't have anyone that can defend quick point guards, and don't have a real great shot blocking presence. We will have a pretty big front court going 6'11 (Odom), and 2 7-footers (Kwame, Mihm), so I think we will be a better rebounding team. We have some warts, but other then San Antonio, who doesn't? I still think this is a 45-50 win team.

 

[LakeShowMan]

I can recall three instances where that proposition is challenged. First, Phil Jackson ripped Kobe in the media for allegedly keeping games close when he was in high school, just so he could finish the games with last second heroics. I remember that this took place right after Kobe either refused to read or refused to take to heart a book Phil gave him to read.
Second, after being criticized for shooting too much and not passing enough, he essentially refused to shoot one game and forced passes rather than take open shots. Third, HE FORCED SHAQ TO GET TRADED. For all his talent and potential, Kobe Bryant is still a spoiled, selfish, immature, child in a very talented man's body. That is not to say that Kobe will not try to play well with the team, but he has done nothing to show that he is above throwing a selfish little tantrum when he does not think that the world is worshiping him enough for his liking.

Media, media, media, media, media, blah, blah, blah, blah.

These are all media slants that have been accepted as fact because it has been said for so long. Phil has admitted to being wrong about what he said about Kobe in highschool. He said he chose poor words. Kobe is consumed with winning, anyone that has ever watched him play and believe that b#!!s#it is seeing what they want to see an not what is really there.

Second, the games in question about not shooting for a half. Well I watched those and he wasn't passing up OPEN shots. He may have been over passing to make a point, but his point was ussually correct. The funny thing is Michael Jordan did the exact same thing every time his teammates started grousing about his shots. Phil said he would do it a couple times a year, just to show the guys on his team that they got much easier opportunities when he was aggresive. Of course, Jordan is everyones golden child so when he does it he is just being a leader, but when Kobe did he was sabotaging the team. Once again, b#!!s#it!

Finally on the he forced Shaq to be traded, uh no. Shaq was traded because of his diminshing returns as a player because he refused to keep himself in shape, plus the fact that he refused to take a pay cut on his salary for an extension. Look, I LOVE Shaq. I always will. In his prime he was the most singularly dominant player I have ever seen. However, the guy is so insecure that he refused to be anything less then he was when he was at his prime level.

The sickening thing is that he has done all the things that the Lakers asked him to do in Miami. What does that tell you? Honestly, it smacks of a pouty child. After he FORCED a trade, he finally decided to take his offseason duties of getting in shape seriously. He finally let a perimeter player dictatce the action, and allow himself to play in a role play capacity. He finally, made a concerted effort to be more of a rebounder and a defensive presence instead of only 'guarding the house when he gets fed'. To top it all of he took a 'paycut' to help the team out and still make $20 million a year. The Lakers had been asking him to do all of these things FOR YEARS! He refused saying it was beneath him. Then he demanded to be traded, and would only go to a couple of teams, greatly reducing any value that we could get for him.

I love Shaq the person. He is a great humanitarian. Community involvement is off the charts. Very giving and he is absolutely hilarious. He has evolved into a wonderful all around player. Even with all this, the guy was the definition of a child when it came to his job with the Lakers. If he would have done all thing he did in Miami in LA, he would still be there.

Of course it is much easier to just take what the media says, and take it a face value. Thinking for ones self is completely overrated anyway. Sheesh.

 

[elindholm]

Great take on O'Neal. I'm surprised to learn that at least one Laker fan sees the light, but it's reassuring to see.

 

[LakeShowMan]

Great take on O'Neal. I'm surprised to learn that at least one Laker fan sees the light, but it's reassuring to see.

Shaq is so affable and such a good hearted person it is hard not to like him. However, because he gives great quotes, and loves to see himself on TV, he has been a huge media favorite. Shaq has gotten a free pass in the media ever since the first championships.

The media hates Kobe. Even before the Colorado situation, the media didn't like that he always gave cookie cutter answers and tried to mold agolden boy image. The media just couldn't wait to bring him down, and stupidly he gave them a reason to. Since then, no matter what it was with the Laker team it was blamed on Kobe. When he shoots a lot he is a ballhog. When he passes alot he is forcing passes or sabotaging the game. Hell, I am surprised he hasn't been balmed for Hurricane Katrina in some way.

Unfortunately, nothing is 'black and white'. However the 'grey' realities doesn't make for good radio, tv or journalism. It is much easier to pick a good guy and a bad guy and just continue to slam the same point home time after time until it becomes accepted as fact.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Media, media, media, media, media, blah, blah, blah, blah.

These are all media slants that have been accepted as fact because it has been said for so long. Phil has admitted to being wrong about what he said about Kobe in highschool. He said he chose poor words. Kobe is consumed with winning, anyone that has ever watched him play and believe that b#!!s#it is seeing what they want to see an not what is really there.

Second, the games in question about not shooting for a half. Well I watched those and he wasn't passing up OPEN shots. He may have been over passing to make a point, but his point was ussually correct. The funny thing is Michael Jordan did the exact same thing every time his teammates started grousing about his shots. Phil said he would do it a couple times a year, just to show the guys on his team that they got much easier opportunities when he was aggresive. Of course, Jordan is everyones golden child so when he does it he is just being a leader, but when Kobe did he was sabotaging the team. Once again, b#!!s#it!

Finally on the he forced Shaq to be traded, uh no. Shaq was traded because of his diminshing returns as a player because he refused to keep himself in shape, plus the fact that he refused to take a pay cut on his salary for an extension. Look, I LOVE Shaq. I always will. In his prime he was the most singularly dominant player I have ever seen. However, the guy is so insecure that he refused to be anything less then he was when he was at his prime level.

The sickening thing is that he has done all the things that the Lakers asked him to do in Miami. What does that tell you? Honestly, it smacks of a pouty child. After he FORCED a trade, he finally decided to take his offseason duties of getting in shape seriously. He finally let a perimeter player dictatce the action, and allow himself to play in a role play capacity. He finally, made a concerted effort to be more of a rebounder and a defensive presence instead of only 'guarding the house when he gets fed'. To top it all of he took a 'paycut' to help the team out and still make $20 million a year. The Lakers had been asking him to do all of these things FOR YEARS! He refused saying it was beneath him. Then he demanded to be traded, and would only go to a couple of teams, greatly reducing any value that we could get for him.

I love Shaq the person. He is a great humanitarian. Community involvement is off the charts. Very giving and he is absolutely hilarious. He has evolved into a wonderful all around player. Even with all this, the guy was the definition of a child when it came to his job with the Lakers. If he would have done all thing he did in Miami in LA, he would still be there.

Of course it is much easier to just take what the media says, and take it a face value. Thinking for ones self is completely overrated anyway. Sheesh.

Shaq is so affable and such a good hearted person it is hard not to like him. However, because he gives great quotes, and loves to see himself on TV, he has been a huge media favorite. Shaq has gotten a free pass in the media ever since the first championships.

The media hates Kobe. Even before the Colorado situation, the media didn't like that he always gave cookie cutter answers and tried to mold agolden boy image. The media just couldn't wait to bring him down, and stupidly he gave them a reason to. Since then, no matter what it was with the Laker team it was blamed on Kobe. When he shoots a lot he is a ballhog. When he passes alot he is forcing passes or sabotaging the game. Hell, I am surprised he hasn't been balmed for Hurricane Katrina in some way.

Unfortunately, nothing is 'black and white'. However the 'grey' realities doesn't make for good radio, tv or journalism. It is much easier to pick a good guy and a bad guy and just continue to slam the same point home time after time until it becomes accepted as fact.


elindholm- Great take on O'Neal. I'm surprised to learn that at least one Laker fan sees the light, but it's reassuring to see.

I'm starting to think my posts are in invisible ink .....wheres graham when i need him????

Saying all that Lakeshow, i completly agree. Very informed opinion.....