Preseason: Suns @ Nuggets

[leclerc]

Game got ugly fast. No defence and crap offence. Knight is a worse pg than Bledsoe!? Where is the effort? Weems as ball handler? I stopped watching in the 2nd quarter. Not looking forward to the regular season right now...

 

[BC867]

Game got ugly fast. No defence and crap offence. Knight is a worse pg than Bledsoe!? Where is the effort? Weems as ball handler? I stopped watching in the 2nd quarter. Not looking forward to the regular season right now...

It looks like it will have to get worse before it gets better. I don't believe the brain trust of Sarver/McDonough/Hornacek has the inclination to give up on its failed mission of trying to confuse the opposition with a backcourt of tweener Guards. No matter how many combinations of players they go through.

Imagine a football team operating with an offense of two halfbacks and no quarterback all season long. Isn't it similar in basketball?

Two skilled Point Guards (one the size of a Shooting Guard) might have worked.

But two tweener Guards (both with weak Point Guard skills (as you pointed out) but too small to play the "2" puts us at a disadvantage every minute of every game. On playmaking and on defense.

Are Sarver, McDonough and Hornacek too stubborn to let their intelligence override their emotions, say, "Hey fans, we tried it and it didn't work." and start a rebuilding plan of winning basketball philosophy immediately?

Sadly, I guess I already answered that by saying that it will have to get worse before it gets better.

This group's folly makes Colangelo's 50-and-fade approach (which should have been a stepping stone rather than the end-all) look good.

As I posted earlier, I just hope that this trap the Suns brass have created doesn't lead to a new owner moving the team. The Valley of the Sun deserves better. And yes, we, the fans who have supported them, deserve better as well.

Is there not a Phoenix business group who could step forward and make Sarver an offer he can't refuse?

 

[CardNots]

Bring cotton back! So, who out there has a good track record in raising the dead?

 

[Phrazbit]

It looks like it will have to get worse before it gets better. I don't believe the brain trust of Sarver/McDonough/Hornacek has the inclination to give up on its failed mission of trying to confuse the opposition with a backcourt of tweener Guards. No matter how many combinations of players they go through.

Imagine a football team operating with an offense of two halfbacks and no quarterback all season long. Isn't it similar in basketball?

Two skilled Point Guards (one the size of a Shooting Guard) might have worked.

But two tweener Guards (both with weak Point Guard skills (as you pointed out) but too small to play the "2" puts us at a disadvantage every minute of every game. On playmaking and on defense.

Are Sarver, McDonough and Hornacek too stubborn to let their intelligence override their emotions, say, "Hey fans, we tried it and it didn't work." and start a rebuilding plan of winning basketball philosophy immediately?

Sadly, I guess I already answered that by saying that it will have to get worse before it gets better.

This group's folly makes Colangelo's 50-and-fade approach (which should have been a stepping stone rather than the end-all) look good.

As I posted earlier, I just hope that this trap the Suns brass have created doesn't lead to a new owner moving the team. The Valley of the Sun deserves better. And yes, we, the fans who have supported them, deserve better as well.

Is there not a Phoenix business group who could step forward and make Sarver an offer he can't refuse?

A very measured response to a preseason game where half the starters didn't even play.

Thought provoking.

 

[sunsfan88]

But two tweener Guards (both with weak Point Guard skills (as you pointed out) but too small to play the "2" puts us at a disadvantage every minute of every game. On playmaking and on defense.

Are Sarver, McDonough and Hornacek too stubborn to let their intelligence override their emotions, say, "Hey fans, we tried it and it didn't work." and start a rebuilding plan of winning basketball philosophy immediately?

This is Hornacek's last year on his contract so it could be a make it or break it year for him. If this dual combo guard crap continues to fail then Suns could go in a different direction after the year with his tenure up.

McD still has two more years left on his contract though so who knows if he will only hire a replacement who buys into the dual combo guard system or if he even decides to extend Hornacek for an extra year so both of their deals expire together.

 

[Mainstreet]

This is Hornacek's last year on his contract so it could be a make it or break it year for him. If this dual combo guard crap continues to fail then Suns could go in a different direction after the year with his tenure up.

McD still has two more years left on his contract though so who knows if he will only hire a replacement who buys into the dual combo guard system or if he even decides to extend Hornacek for an extra year so both of their deals expire together.

IMO, if the Suns do not play well early in the season, I can see Hornacek gone before the 20 game mark. Sarver wants to win now so he can get a new arena. I can see his patience wearing thin.

In regard to McDonough, I think he has done a good job as GM thus far. He has provided the type players Hornacek wants. This is what a good GM does. I do not see McDonough locked into the two PG system.

 

[JCSunsfan]

IMO, if the Suns do not play well early in the season, I can see Hornacek gone before the 20 game mark. Sarver wants to win now so he can get a new arena. I can see his patience wearing thin.

In regard to McDonough, I think he has done a good job as GM thus far. He has provided the type players Hornacek wants. This is what a good GM does. I do not see McDonough locked into the two PG system.

They do not need a new arena. Good grief, we havent finished paying for the old one yet. Firing Hornacek would be stupid. He would just be starting over. If there is any reason why the Suns are where they are right now, its because of Sarver's disastrous 2 months at the GM position.

 

[Mainstreet]

They do not need a new arena. Good grief, we havent finished paying for the old one yet. Firing Hornacek would be stupid. He would just be starting over. If there is any reason why the Suns are where they are right now, its because of Sarver's disastrous 2 months at the GM position.

This is has been mentioned publicly, Sarver has been thinking about a new arena for some time although it's not imminent. He knows the Suns will need to start winning to get the support he needs. Thus far, Hornacek has not shown me enough that he can get the job done although I'm really hoping he can. This season should prove pivotal.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...silver-new-suns-arena-robert-sarver/20566341/

 

[BC867]

In regard to McDonough, I think he has done a good job as GM thus far. He has provided the type players Hornacek wants. This is what a good GM does. I do not see McDonough locked into the two PG system.

I am sorry, but that is not accurate. At the time, I posted McDonough's quote (to paraphrase), "As long as I am General Manager, the Suns will run a 2-Point Guard offense."

The folly of it is not only his stubbornness. He has not staffed a 2-Point Guard offense. And has never addressed the issue as two tweener Guards. That is why I have no confidence in his judgement.

He is ruining our hometown team before our eyes.

 

[Mainstreet]

I am sorry, but that is not accurate. At the time, I posted McDonough's quote (to paraphrase), "As long as I am General Manager, the Suns will run a 2-Point Guard offense."

The folly of it is not only his stubbornness. He has not staffed a 2-Point Guard offense. And has never addressed the issue as two tweener Guards. That is why I have no confidence in his judgement.

He is ruining our hometown team before our eyes.

I'd like to see this quote in context. I would enjoy reading it. Do you have a link?

What concerns me more than a 2 PG offense is the Suns defense. Maybe Hornacek will put the offense and defense together but I have not seen it. I will be watching the last two preseason games to see if there are signs of it coming together. Nothing would please me more.

 

[sunsfan88]

IMO, if the Suns do not play well early in the season, I can see Hornacek gone before the 20 game mark. Sarver wants to win now so he can get a new arena. I can see his patience wearing thin.

In regard to McDonough, I think he has done a good job as GM thus far. He has provided the type players Hornacek wants. This is what a good GM does. I do not see McDonough locked into the two PG system.

I doubt it. You have to always keep it in perspective that Hornacek is a former Suns player and imo Sarver hired him in part because of that. He wouldn't just fire him right away, he knows a lot of old timers still have lots of love for Hornacek and it would piss them off if he fired him mid season even if that is the right move to make.

I can see Hornacek getting a longer leash than he deserves based entirely on the fact that he's a former Suns player who was a fan favorite in the hearts of many.

I disagree about McD, he's the one that added fuel to the fire by bringing in IT and then the horrible Tolliver signing. I think if he really wants to end the dual combo guard system, he could have told Hornacek, "Listen, end this experiment or get fired" and I think Hornacek would have looked into more traditional way. Especially since they actually drafted a 2 guard with good size this summer in Booker and yet still went and paid Knight a boat load of money.

f there is any reason why the Suns are where they are right now, its because of Sarver's disastrous 2 months at the GM position.

Sorry but no, we can't keep excusing everyone and blaming Sarver's actions from like 5 years ago as the issue still. It worked for sometime but now its getting old.

Its time the actual people responsible for this become accountable and face the consequences.

 

[Errntknght]

I would say that there's very little chance that McD will fire Hornacek early and no chance that he will fire him because of the two 'PG' offense. The two of them saw eye-to-eye about that from the beginning and there's been nothing to suggest either of them has changed his mind. Now he might fire Jeff for not being able to get the whole team on the same page - as happened last year.

I think its more likely that Sarver fires them both because of the lack of fan interest.

 

[BC867]

I am sorry, but that is not accurate. At the time, I posted McDonough's quote (to paraphrase), "As long as I am General Manager, the Suns will run a 2-Point Guard offense."

I'd like to see this quote in context. I would enjoy reading it. Do you have a link?

I have googled McDonough and the quote, but came up empty.

I just remember reading it and being surprised that he would lock himself into this philosophy. I thought, "Why not give himself an out if it doesn't work?"

The only thing I can say is that, so far, no matter how many times he has shaken up the roster, the 2-Point Guard approach has continued. Under Sarver, under McDonough and under Hornacek.

 

[SirStefan32]

I have googled McDonough and the quote, but came up empty.

I just remember reading it and being surprised that he would lock himself into this philosophy. I thought, "Why not give himself an out if it doesn't work?"

The only thing I can say is that, so far, no matter how many times he has shaken up the roster, the 2-Point Guard approach has continued. Under Sarver, under McDonough and under Hornacek.

I remember it as well. It was during one of the press conferences around the time Dragic and IT were traded and Knight was acquired, if I remember correctly.

 

[Phrazbit]

Just like last time this "quote" was discussed... it can't be found because it was never said.

They've talked about how they want to have 2 guys who can handle the ball out of the back court out there. There has never been some unequivocal "RABBLE RABBLE, 2 PGs FOR LIFE!!! RABBLE RABBLE!!!" quote.

 

[BC867]

Just like last time this "quote" was discussed... it can't be found because it was never said.

They've talked about how they want to have 2 guys who can handle the ball out of the back court out there. There has never been some unequivocal "RABBLE RABBLE, 2 PGs FOR LIFE!!! RABBLE RABBLE!!!" quote.

If it makes you feel better to deny that SirStefan and I heard McDonough's commitment to a 2-Point Guard lineup as long as he is Suns GM, go for it.

But the proof is that despite major personnel changes to try to make it work, it hasn't changed. His actions have supported what he announced, right to this moment. That is a fact.

He even went so far as to have 3 small Guards on the court to close out games.

The only sign that he is trying to make us a playoff team is the addition of Tyson Chandler to give us two legitimate Centers in the rotation.

But with no legitimate lead Point Guard or Shooting Guard in the backcourt, what Chandler and Len will be able to achieve alternating at Center is limited.

And until McDonough gives up on his folly of having two players competing for lead Point Guard on the court, his proclamation lives on.

As does our not being a playoff team.

 

[Catlover]

If it makes you feel better to deny that SirStefan and I heard McDonough's commitment to a 2-Point Guard lineup as long as he is Suns GM, go for it.

But the proof is that despite major personnel changes to try to make it work, it hasn't changed. His actions have supported what he announced, right to this moment. That is a fact.

He even went so far as to have 3 small Guards on the court to close out games.

The only sign that he is trying to make us a playoff team is the addition of Tyson Chandler to give us two legitimate Centers in the rotation.

But with no legitimate lead Point Guard or Shooting Guard in the backcourt, what Chandler and Len will be able to achieve alternating at Center is limited.

And until McDonough gives up on his folly of having two players competing for lead Point Guard on the court, his proclamation lives on.

As does our not being a playoff team.

I'm pretty sure I heard something of the sort too but unlike you, I think it's a sign that McDonough knows what he's doing. The NBA is going to multiple ballhandlers on the court and IMO that was the impetus for McDonough's comments. BTW, less than 2 minutes ago I heard Doug Collins make the same comment about this issue. It's not the way of the future, it's the NBA as we currently know it. Multiple ballhandlers.

 

[BC867]

I'm pretty sure I heard something of the sort too but unlike you, I think it's a sign that McDonough knows what he's doing. The NBA is going to multiple ballhandlers on the court and IMO that was the impetus for McDonough's comments. BTW, less than 2 minutes ago I heard Doug Collins make the same comment about this issue. It's not the way of the future, it's the NBA as we currently know it. Multiple ballhandlers.

'Good point. But the question is . . . do the Suns have multiple ballhandlers or small Scoring Guards running the offense?

So far, McDonough's attempts haven't shown progress.

Then there is the problem of conflicting egos as the Suns have experienced. I'd rather see one All Star Point Guard than two splitting the role, for a number of reasons.

 

[Phrazbit]

If it makes you feel better to deny that SirStefan and I heard McDonough's commitment to a 2-Point Guard lineup as long as he is Suns GM, go for it.

If he'd actually said that it would be easy to find, especially with all the blabber that has surrounded the "two PG system" not just here but with the media's attention to the trades last year (which is right when you guys think this quote was made).

So, I'm not denying it to make myself feel better... I deny it because it never happened, at least not in the context or verbiage you think it did. He has said they want two ball handlers out there, more than once, but that is something virtually every decent team has going for it.

There are plenty of actual things to discuss and gripes to be made without making stuff up.

 

[BC867]

If he'd actually said that it would be easy to find, especially with all the blabber that has surrounded the "two PG system" not just here but with the media's attention to the trades last year (which is right when you guys think this quote was made).

So, I'm not denying it to make myself feel better... I deny it because it never happened, at least not in the context or verbiage you think it did.

There are plenty of actual things to discuss and gripes to be made without making stuff up.

Hey, pal. You have every right to question my opinion. But you have no justification for questioning my honesty. Three of us have posted hearing it.

Let's move on.

 

[Phrazbit]

Hey, pal. You have every right to question my opinion. But you have no justification for questioning my honesty. Three of us have posted hearing it.

Let's move on.

I'm not questioning your honesty. I think you're taking something that was actually said and "mishearing" it or misconstruing it to fit your arguments that you love to bang home ad nauseam.

Even I agree that a statement was made about wanting two ball handlers, but never was it said 'two point guards no matter what'.

 

[BC867]

I'm not questioning your honesty. I think you're taking something that was actually said and "mishearing" it or misconstruing it to fit your arguments that you love to bang home ad nauseam.

Even I agree that a statement was made about wanting two ball handlers, but never was it said 'two point guards no matter what'.

Why do I bother responding to misquotes?

What I posted was, "I am sorry, but that is not accurate. At the time, I posted McDonough's quote (to paraphrase), "As long as I am General Manager, the Suns will run a 2-Point Guard offense."

I have also referred to his doing it with Tweener Guards. That is just as much a part of the problem.

The guy with the ball in his hands running the offense is always mediocre, no matter how many of them are on the court.

Do you remember how Hornacek made a mockery of it by joking to the Press about putting 5 Point Guards on the court at one time?

Bottom line. Regardless of quotes, it has not produced acceptable results. The main one being building to a playoff contender.

So either the idea of dual Tweener Guards is not the way to achieve their goal or McDonough/Hornacek have neither the skill nor experience to pull it off.

Please don't change what I've said and put quotes around it.

 

[sunsfan88]

I'm pretty sure I heard something of the sort too but unlike you, I think it's a sign that McDonough knows what he's doing. The NBA is going to multiple ballhandlers on the court and IMO that was the impetus for McDonough's comments. BTW, less than 2 minutes ago I heard Doug Collins make the same comment about this issue. It's not the way of the future, it's the NBA as we currently know it. Multiple ballhandlers.

And yet that's not what we're doing. Kobe and Fisher were both players capable of handling the ball and yet one was a PG and the other was a SG.

Curry and Thompson are both well capable of handling the ball and yet one is a PG and the other,again, is a SG.

CP3 and Redick are both well capable of handling the ball and yet one is a PG and the other,again, is a SG.

Curry and Thompson are both well capable of handling the ball and yet one is a PG and the other,again, is a SG.

Holliday and Gordon are both well capable of handling the ball and yet one is a PG and the other,again, is a SG.

I can go on but yea. Of course in some instances, such as the Spurs or Thunder, its one guard that can handle the ball however they have both have a SF than is well capable of handling the ball.

There's no rule that says "To have multiple ball handlers, you need to bring in players who were PGs for their previous team and now make a backcourt together of them both".

This is funny to me because I used to argue against BC, SirStefan, Cheese etc when they hated the dual guard lineup and I used to be the one that actually supported it early on in the first year of this experiment but I've come around as well.

 

[Phrazbit]

Why do I bother responding to misquotes?

What I posted was, "I am sorry, but that is not accurate. At the time, I posted McDonough's quote (to paraphrase), "As long as I am General Manager, the Suns will run a 2-Point Guard offense."

I have also referred to his doing it with Tweener Guards. That is just as much a part of the problem.

The guy with the ball in his hands running the offense is always mediocre, no matter how many of them are on the court.

Do you remember how Hornacek made a mockery of it by joking to the Press about putting 5 Point Guards on the court at one time?

Bottom line. Regardless of quotes, it has not produced acceptable results. The main one being building to a playoff contender.

So either the idea of dual Tweener Guards is not the way to achieve their goal or McDonough/Hornacek have neither the skill nor experience to pull it off.

Please don't change what I've said and put quotes around it.

The irony here is astounding.

You say he said, "As long as I am General Manager, the Suns will run a 2-Point Guard offense", I (using the singular 'quotation', often meant to imply paraphrasing, rather than the "double quote") summarize that as 'two point guards no matter what'... generally the same idea, but if you disagree with the paraphrasing... fine.

But... ironically, we're only having this conversation because you are quite obviously misquoting Ryan McDonough.

He didn't say it. He DID say he wants two ball handlers, (and I conceded that in my first post) he did NOT say we will "run a 2-Point Guard offense" as long as he is the GM.

Move on.

 

[JCSunsfan]

The irony here is astounding.

You say he said, "As long as I am General Manager, the Suns will run a 2-Point Guard offense", I (using the singular 'quotation', often meant to imply paraphrasing, rather than the "double quote") summarize that as 'two point guards no matter what'... generally the same idea, but if you disagree with the paraphrasing... fine.

But... ironically, we're only having this conversation because you are quite obviously misquoting Ryan McDonough.

He didn't say it. He DID say he wants two ball handlers, (and I conceded that in my first post) he did NOT say we will "run a 2-Point Guard offense" as long as he is the GM.

Move on.

BC, Phraz fairly characterized what you said. Ironically probably more fairly than you did McD. But we will never know because no one can find the source.

I have stayed out of the two pg system argument because the two sides seem to be arguing about different points.

I do not think ANYONE would argue against having two capable ball handlers and distributors at the guard position. That is the way the NBA is going, and many teams have been for years. In other words, a 3 and D player at the two is not sufficient. Even the Michael Jordan championship teams had this guard set up.

Some would argue that you cannot have two pg's playing the same position on the floor at the same time. But the Suns are not doing that. It is clear that Bledsoe is the pg when he is on the floor. That does not mean that Knight cannot run the break if the ball comes to him, but that is nothing new in the NBA.

The thing the Suns want is two starting caliber pg's, so that there will always be a starting caliber pg on the floor. They do not want first string and second string. They want a starting caliber pg even if there is an injury. Again this is not a unique situation. Many teams have a 2 who could easily be a starter at the pg.

So what are we arguing about? We are arguing about whether the present personnel is capable of filling that role. That's the question. And the answer to that is "yes" in the case of Bledsoe. He just keeps getting better. The answer regarding Knight is probably "maybe but its not looking good" at the moment. For instance, Bledsoe would have been fine in this role next to Steve Nash. Nash's shooting and Bledsoe's defense would have worked well together. Both could actually run the point.

Its a personnel question, not a system question.