QB Situation- my $.02

[Lars the Red]

are you talking about the team as a whole or just Josh here - that blind man's got AWFULLY good sight if he somehow has seen improvement in Josh so far . . . .

Oh my God! You can't be serious. Is he polished? Hell no, but that isn't the same guy that was on the field last year. I have faith that your just feeling like stirring a pot, because that isn't the same player.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Oh my God! You can't be serious. Is he polished? Hell no, but that isn't the same guy that was on the field last year. I have faith that your just feeling like stirring a pot, because that isn't the same player.

you're right - he's worse. The Josh I saw last year was at least making plays and getting a bad team up and down the field and limiting his turnovers to a minimum. Stirring the pot - Lars - I think you're looney toons if you think there's no comparison between last yera and this year in a positive way. Two TDs in three games - none on his arm - and 5 TOs and zero plays with his feet that have resulted in big plays.

No stirring the pot - but obviously someone here's smoking it and a lot of it if they think Josh has actually gotten BETTER from last year.

 

[Pariah]

No stirring the pot - but obviously someone here's smoking it and a lot of it if they think Josh has actually gotten BETTER from last year.

I don't think he's gotten worse. His game has changed a bit--he seems to be better at making reads and taking care of the ball (for the most part), but he's not playing with the abandon and fire that he did last year. I think there needs to be a happy medium. Right now he's playing to much within himself, he needs to push just a little more--but not too much more, lest we have another Jake Plummer on our hands.

Like I said, I don't know if I'd call his game better this year, buit he's not worse. He's different.

 

[AZCB34]

But he is also saying he would rather have a QB with the intangebles of scrambling in order to make a defense accountable. A young guy like Steve Young didn't get it until he had been around awhile. Neither did Daunte Culpepper but these guys always made a Defense account for there ability to take off. With limited weapons on offense and a suspect Running game you have to keep the intangeble of your QB running in the Offense. It is another weapon that has to be schemed by a defense. King won't give us that intangeble. If Josh gets over his fumbleitis and has a game or two that he clicks he could really be a good QB. He has had to face 3 pretty good defenses so far. The next 3 games should tell us all we will need to know about this QB. A running QB is not a bad thing. A young running QB is a liability until he gets seasoned. This has proven to be the case just about every time. The thing is we have focused so much on the QB that no one wants to address the more serious problems with this team. There is no running game to speak of and no proven guy to get them over the hump. That is where not getting a proven runner this off season has sunk this teams season this year. We all wanted Emmitt to be like Allen was for DG late in his career but that seems to be a stretch now.

Josh's scrambling ability (mobility) isn't an intangible. It is a known quality of the player much like his arm strangth and his size and his physical toughness (I think he has displayed physical toughness thus far).

The intangibles always have been, and continue to be where the question marks are with Josh.

1. Pocket presence (awareness) - Some people question his awareness and bring up the fact he has been in the league three years but his awareness hasn;t improved (I know Cheesy for sure but there have been others). Clearly the game is still moving fast for him and teams are blitzing the hell out of him but I fail to understand how the argument about improving his awareness over 3 years can be made. Maybe it is me but one doesn;t learn awareness holding a clipboard...only way to learn is to play at this level. Having said that though, his pocket awareness is shaky. I think he doesn;t trust his OL anymore to protect him and personally I believe he is thinking out there more than playing. Anyone think he trusts Jones to have his back? He has got to make better and faster decisions in the pocket, plain and simple.

2. Internal clock - For most QB's, they cannot rely on the internal clock they developed in college to sustain them in the NFL. They must mentally speed up their internal clock in their decision-making. In college, McCown was playing 1AA ball on probably was something of a man amongst boys at that level. What was once plenty of time at that level is waaaaaaaaay too late in the NFL on Sundays. I wonder if Green should (and maybe has) scale the offense down from a read standpoint in the short term in order to help McCown get his mental clock operating properly.

3. Confidence - I think right now McCown's confidence is hurting and one more bad outing and it will be pulverized. It cannot help that he was running for his life and then King comes in and the OL actually looked like they cared to block people (except Jones again). McCown had better get this offense together this week and re-establish any leadership he may have been fostering but the O players must step up their game and quit f-ing off out there. Fumbles are bad but it is on the entire offense to make the engine run and IMO there have been few plays where everyone was on the same page.

I write this as McCown will start this weekend. I don't think King would have done much better in the first 3 games given the overall ineptitude of the offense but I am not pimping McCown either. This week may be McCown's last chance and he better take advantage. There comes a point with players where they run out of chances, he cannot let that happen. King better be ready to come in each and every week as I wonder if McCown will be on a short leash.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Great post Cubby.

 

[chickenhead]

40yrfan made a good point about remembering that Josh went 20 for 26 (in a very low-scoring game). I'm less concerned about aborting pass attempts to run, and more concerned with him completing a lot of the passes he attempts. The former is something that will hopefully be corrected with experience.

I don't know what a McCown apologist is supposed to be, but I'm interested in seeing him play more than three games from the start of a season before I decide to write him off and go with King. If McCown never gets better, then we can give King the same kind of playing time Josh eventually got last year, and address the QB position in the offseason barring a spectacular tenure by King.

 

[conraddobler]

Sorry, but there's little I agree with here, at least in the 2nd half of this post.

First of all, it really does personally pizz me off how a few people here riducule Josh for being emotional. To me it just shows how cempetitive he is and how bad he wants to help the team. He's never been anything but a complete team player. I'm glad to see benching bother him so much. At least he cares. Not like so many players that have come and gone through here the past few years who were only here for a paycheck.

And this constant blaming of Mac for every little detail under the sun just plain gets ridiculous and carried away, at times...and the comments made above are certainly no exception, in their insinuation that Josh was doomed to fail simply because, "Mac started him, instead of Dennis Green."

Yes, any coach has ultimate responsibility for the overall team performance.
But Mac was never an offensive coach, never pretended to be. Just like Tony Dungy. Dungy is a defensive coach too. He doesn't meddle with the offense, just like Mac didn't.
The only fault with Mac was not getting someone who was capable overseeing the offense properly. The Cards haven't had a decent offensive coordinator here since Fassel left, IMO.

Coach Mac did the dumbest thing of his tenure when he didn't just gut the staff and hire new assistants.

I have no idea if he would have been allowed to or not but he shouldn't have taken the job without insisting on it.

He made his bed by retaining the staff his first year and wasting his honeymoon year. He at one time was going to have Mike Martz as his offensive coordinator when he took the Chicago job so it isn't like he couldn't spot decent coordinators.

Perhaps I didn't flesh out my point about Mac clearly but where I feel he had the biggest deficiency in his overal management strategy was that he seem to leave an awful lot to chance.

Mac gambled that his rah rah style was all that was needed and he lost. He lost in the first year of his tenure and wasn't ever going to get it back. Contrast that with Green who is doing almost all the gutting in his first year and you can see why even though I don't like DG personally I can see he at least is an NFL quality head coach that understands how things work.

Mac talked a guy like Sullivan into staying as the OC with no previous experience out of desperation because at that point in his contract he was not going to be able to attract anyone of any talent to the job it would have been suicide for any reputable OC.

Mac will never be a head coach in this league at least not a successful one, not because he dosen't know football but because he has no clue about management at all.

 

[Tangodnzr]

40yrfan made a good point about remembering that Josh went 20 for 26 (in a very low-scoring game). I'm less concerned about aborting pass attempts to run, and more concerned with him completing a lot of the passes he attempts. The former is something that will hopefully be corrected with experience.

I don't know what a McCown apologist is supposed to be, but I'm interested in seeing him play more than three games from the start of a season before I decide to write him off and go with King. If McCown never gets better, then we can give King the same kind of playing time Josh eventually got last year, and address the QB position in the offseason barring a spectacular tenure by King.

Another great post.

I can't believe all this "give him one more half to prove himself or jerk him", or
"he's already proved he doesn't have what it takes", etc, etc, etc.

This is really nothing more than people that are overly impatient or in denial about their own "prejudices". They accuse others what they themselves are most guilty of....spinning things to fit their pre-determined "take".

As to the first part, I find that no real surprise, as many of the posters, and especially some of the most prolific ones, seem to be from the "present" "younger" generation (mid thirties and under, mostly twenties or late teens), more "computer literate and oriented", who have come to be labeled the "me" generation. (now I'm certainly not saying EVERYONE in that generation is like that, by any means, but it is "common", .....and well documented here.).
Instant gratification is nothing new for any "younger" generation, but seldom as widespread as it is now.

I couldn't agree more with your last paragraph about giving Josh the remainder of the season before permanently deciding one way or the other. If this kid has all the things I think he does, by next year some of his present critics will be jumping on his bandwagon.(well some may not, they will remain "stubborn" to their "take")
If he doesn't, then the team will know what they need to do in the offseason. And as you said, then .. if he's being written off, take an obligatory look at Navarre and King to confirm what they think they do or don't have , and be ready to go from there. '
The dance has started, partners have been chosen, now it's time you dance with who brung ya'. If you picked a loser, live with it, money ain't even gonna buy you a decent *****, at this point.

I think Josh will be fine, unless destroyed psychically by Green, and I gotta say right now, in spite of all my reservations about him, I'm gonna trust him on this one, and expect him to know that any rush to judgement is still very, very premature, to say the least.

He may sit Josh, for his own good and developments sake, in spots here and there, and I have no problem with that. In fact, I don't think any QB should be like Jake was here....playing every snap of every play. Especially with a young QB who can, and will run, and shows fearless disregard for his own well-being, leading to higher odds of injury.

You can compare Josh to other QB's only to a certain degree. Every player in the league enters, with a unique combination of talent, history, and circumstances, both past, present, and future. Each situation IS a totally unique one, no matter how much anyone may try and insinuate otherwise, and how some seem to so often forget.

You can't compare Josh to Brady any more than you can compare Brady to ANYONE else. etc, etc, etc.

Some keep bringing up Leftwich or Roth. Perfect examples. Each of those 3....(Josh, Lefty, Roth) all came into the league with different talents that have been/or not developed differently, and each comes, along with their unique physical talents, to a different situation and set of circumstances on the team that drafted them.

Few have ever questioned the upside of Josh. In fact, some of the acknowledged best minds in the game have commented on his "potential".
But all agreed he was "raw", not someone you would expect to be able to adapt quickly to the pro game. Leftwich seemed to have that expectation by many, but he is far from setting the world on fire so far. (not to my surprise.. the "3 yr" rule). Josh is just STARTING his 3rd year, the time most pro coaches start playing their "future" high expectation QB on a consistant basis as a starter. And many of them, until maybe not even until 1/3-1/2 into the season, again depending on circumstances. And even then, that's when they make any more long term decisions based on what the QB situation is going to be in the near future, following that.

Look at Drew Brees, and the controversey and debate about San Diego's decision to trade the rights to Vick and going with the Tomlinson/Brees combo instead. At the time Brees was considered, by most, to be the most "NFL ready" of any QB that year, including Vick. Now, entering his 4th year even he is finally just now looking like he's getting it all together. And even Vick, who is probably the closest thing to B-Balls Michael Jordan, wasn't an instant success, by any means.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Another great post.


This is really nothing more than people that are overly impatient or in denial about their own "prejudices".
.

 

[clif]

Another great post.

I can't believe all this "give him one more half to prove himself or jerk him", or
"he's already proved he doesn't have what it takes", etc, etc, etc.

This is really nothing more than people that are overly impatient or in denial about their own "prejudices". They accuse others what they themselves are most guilty of....spinning things to fit their pre-determined "take".

As to the first part, I find that no real surprise as many of the posters, and especially some of the most prolific ones, seem to be from the "present" "younger" generation (mid thirties and under, mostly twenties or late teens), more "computer literate and oriented", who have come to be labeled the "me" generation. (now I'm certainly not saying EVERYONE in that generation is like that, by any means, but it is "common", and well documented here.).
Instant gratification is nothing new for any "younger" generation, but seldom as widespread as it is now.

I couldn't agree more with your last paragraph about giving Josh the remainder of the season before permantently deciding one way or the other. If this kid has all the things I think he does, by next year some of his present critics will be jumping on his bandwagon.(well some may not, they will remain "stubborn" to their "take")
If he doesn't then the team will know what they need to do in the offseason. And as you said, then .. if he's being written off, take an obligatory look at Navarre and King to confirm what they think they do or don't have , and be ready to go from there. '
The dance has started, partners have been chosen, now it's time you dance with who brung ya'. If you picked a loser, live with it, money ain't even gonna buy you a decent *****, at this point.

I think Josh will be fine, unless destroyed psychically by Green, and I gotta say right now, in spite of all my reservations about him, I'm gonna trust him on this one, and expect him too, to know any rush to judgement is still very, very premature, to say the least.

He may sit Josh, for his own good and developments sake, in spots here and there, and I have no problem with that. In fact, I don't think any QB should be like Jake was here....playing every snap of every play. Especially with a young QB who can, and will run, shows fearless disregard for his own well-being, leading to higher odds of injury.

You can only compare Josh to other QB's to only a certain degree. Every player in the league enters, with a unique combination of talent, history, and circumstances, both past, present, and future. Each situation IS a totally unique one, no matter how much anyone may try and insinuate otherwise.

You can't compare Josh to Brady any more than you can compare Brady to ANYONE else. etc, etc, etc.

Some keep bringing up Leftwich or Roth. Perfect examples. Each of those 3....(Josh, Lefty, Roth) all come with different talents that have been/or not developed differently, and each comes to a different situation and set of circumstances on the team that drafted them.

Few have ever questioned the upside of Josh. In fact, some of the acknowledged best minds in the game have commented on his "potential".
But all agreed he was "raw", not someone you would expect to be able to adapt quickly to the pro game. Leftwich seemed to have that expectation by many, but he is far from setting the world on fire so far. (not to my surprise.. the "3 yr" rule). Josh is just STARTING his 3rd year, the time most pro coaches start playing their "future" high expectation QB on a consistant basis as a starter. And many of them, until maybe not even until 1/3-1/2 into the season, again depending on circumstances.

Look at Drew Brees, and the controversey and debate about San Diego's decision to trade the rights to Vick and going with the Tomlinson/Brees combo instead. At the time Brees was considered, by most, to be the most "NFL ready" of any QB that year, including Vick. Now, entering his 4th year even he is finally looking like he's getting it all together. And even Vick, who is probably the closest thing to BBalls Michael Jordan, wasn't an instant success, by any means.

Tangodnzr,

I must commend you on a very thought out piece. While you and I certainly have not seen eye to eye on many things I could not agree with you more on this take.

I especially agree with the comparisons that people want to make between josh and some of the more recent Qb's drafted. To say that they will succeed sooner rather than later is more the exception and not the rule.

Most "experts" would agree that McCown has all the "tools" to get the job done and it is all about PT and this point. Many have said and Green even alluded to that most young QB's choose to run too much in their first few years in the league just to make a play in fear of making a mistake. It is certainly coachable and something that he will definetly have to improve in that respect. The positives can not be ignored either.

Benching him at this point would be fruitless. It may produce a token win here or there, but would mean little in the overall improvement and future of this team.

King is not the answer and will not be the one to lead this team in the future.
The cards future will be defined by either Josh or someone that is not currently on the roster.

Navarre is certainly has nice size and a very strong arm, but the knock on him is that he does not feel the rush either. That IMO would only intensify the lack of solid pass protection with this current group of players.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Coach Mac did the dumbest thing of his tenure when he didn't just gut the staff and hire new assistants.
I can't really agree with most of this. Sure to some degree, yes. But I thought there were some decent coaches here too. I think Sullivan is one of if not THE best WR coaches in the league (should never have been an OC...didn't even really wanna be.) I'd take Johnny Roland back as RB coach in a heartbeat. I thought Fitzgerald was a great coach. Tolbert seemed decent too. Hoener and before him Warhop, I'm just not sure. I think especially in Hoener's case he may have been handcuffed by the poor OC situation...so 'the jury's still out' on that one. Warhop has generally had nothing but decent things said about him, and Tuna sure must have thought he was decent, to recruit him out of here.
So..to say Mac should have "gutted" the staff, I can't go along with at all. Made some major changes...yes.

I have no idea if he would have been allowed to or not but he shouldn't have taken the job without insisting on it.

He made his bed by retaining the staff his first year and wasting his honeymoon year. He at one time was going to have Mike Martz as his offensive coordinator when he took the Chicago job so it isn't like he couldn't spot decent coordinators.
For all the trash that gets thrown Martz's way, I think most people would tend to agree that he IS a great OC...just a crappy HC...and in a sense the exact opposite of Mac....Losing Lovie Smith to oversee the defensive side of the ball exposed his HC weakness.

Perhaps I didn't flesh out my point about Mac clearly but where I feel he had the biggest deficiency in his overal management strategy was that he seem to leave an awful lot to chance.

Mac gambled that his rah rah style was all that was needed and he lost. He lost in the first year of his tenure and wasn't ever going to get it back. Contrast that with Green who is doing almost all the gutting in his first year and you can see why even though I don't like DG personally I can see he at least is an NFL quality head coach that understands how things work.
Again, I'm not so totally sure I would agree with all of that. I think Mac had some great HC attributes, in fact some that Green could learn from. Mac and Tobin were defensively oriented coaches, that was their background, just like Green's is offensive. In cases like that, it's of the utmost importance that the guy you pick to handle the "other" side of the ball from "your" expertise is capable. That's where I would agree that both Tobin and Mac made some poor choices. Fassel did the job until enticed away to NY. They tried to get Turner, but he chose the Skins instead. Olson seems to have come the closest but seemed to conservative and not very "innovative" or inspiring. Trestman tried to fit square pegs into round holes. Jamieson sucked to high hell. And I would totally agree with your take on Sullivan.
Marmie, we won't even talk about, I'll just concede that one. Though nothing has actually been "proven" yet...(though the circumstantial evidence is quite preponderous.)

Mac talked a guy like Sullivan into staying as the OC with no previous experience out of desperation because at that point in his contract he was not going to be able to attract anyone of any talent to the job it would have been suicide for any reputable OC.

Mac will never be a head coach in this league at least not a successful one, not because he dosen't know football but because he has no clue about management at all.

Again, I simply disagree with your last sentence. Yes, Mac didn't get the job done, but I'm not so sure I'd write him off as TOTALLY incompetant just yet either. I think that is an exaggeration. I wouldn't be surprised, that he may get another chance, somewhere, someday, and make the most of it, having learned from mistakes of the past. Which EVERYONE does.(edited to add: Make mistakes, that is, not everyone learns from them)

 

[SECTION 11]

I wouldn't be surprised, that he may get another chance, somewhere, someday, and make the most of it, having learned from mistakes of the past. Which EVERYONE does.

Green included?

Because this describes him as well.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Green included?

Because this describes him as well.

Most certainly.

And so now the big question is:

Did/Has he?

 

[SECTION 11]

Most certainly.

And so now the big question is:

Did/Has he?

Well on the coaching front he does have two first-time coordinators, but he does have Solomon and Hargrave.
Beyond that I'm not sure. I'm going to assume he has learned from any past mistakes until I see otherwise.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Well on the coaching front he does have two first-time coordinators, but he does have Solomon and Hargrave.
Beyond that I'm not sure. I'm going to assume he has learned from any past mistakes until I see otherwise.

And I'll not criticise Wood just yet. He certainly can't be any worse than Sullivan last year. ( although, so far, the results, in many ways are the same or worse, and how much of that is "Woods". ).

Can you not also say that Green has also given some fuel to the fire, at least in some areas, that he HAS NOT learned......

"but he does have Solomon and Hargrave",

His distrust and advesary relationship with the media,

and keeping his ego in check.

???

 

[Cheesebeef]

And I'll not criticise Wood just yet. He certainly can't be any worse than Sullivan last year. ( although, so far, the results, in many ways are the same or worse, and how much of that is "Woods". ).

Can you not also say that Green has also given some fuel to the fire, at least in some areas, that he HAS NOT learned......

"but he does have Solomon and Hargrave",

His distrust and advesary relationship with the media,

and keeping his ego in check.

???

ah - but it seems he has learned from his problem in Minnesota as far as ignoring the defesnive side of the ball - hell - besides Fitz - the entire offseason was based on upgrading the defense - something taht was never the case in his last stop.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

ah - but it seems he has learned from his problem in Minnesota as far as ignoring the defesnive side of the ball - hell - besides Fitz - the entire offseason was based on upgrading the defense - something taht was never the case in his last stop.

agree with you cheese, at least as far as Green coaching up the defense. I watched from work as this thread developed today, and I'm just settling in at a place where I can post so I'm going to have get in late.

HOWEVER,

My answer to those who are criticizing josh, including you cheese, 11, and a host of others is:

20-26.

The darksiders ask: What has McCown done to deserve playing time?

Answer: 20-26

Q. How has Josh shown improvement over last year?

A. 20-26.

Statement: McCown totally fell apart last Sunday

A. 20-26?

I'm not saying Green shouldn't have yanked him. He should have. Maybe McCown should even sit a game.

But totally bailing on him now is ridiculous. Anybody who can complete that many passes against an NFL defense including 14 in a row or whatever (and I saw the yardage on those passes posted on another thread, so don't tell me they were all dink and dunks) with no interceptions deserves PT. Right now, McCown is the cardinals QB of the present and future.

Now, darksiders let me tell me where I agree with you:

He cried at the press conference. whoa.

Its one thing for a coach to cry when he retires, or when a 30-1 underdog boxer goes 15 rounds with Apollo Creed. (Adrian!!)

But crying when you get pulled from a game? Thats weak, plain and simple. Sorry Josh. But the announcers were talking you up about how tough you were because you worked in your Dads pallet factory or whatever. It looks like that was baloney.

Is he going to cry in the huddle if the other team starts calling him names?

I mean, Josh could probably whip my butt with one hand tied behind his back, but gee whiz. come on...

and do you know how many times he fumbled in the final game last year? four. I watched the tape about 20 times. The cards didn't lose one of them. It was truly a miracle that we won that game.

Anyway. I can see both sides here. There are some definite red flags going up, but not enough to write him off yet.

McCown gets at least a dozen more starts before we, as a message board, should seriously begin to evaluate his career potential.

Thanks for your time...

 

[conraddobler]

agree with you cheese, at least as far as Green coaching up the defense. I watched from work as this thread developed today, and I'm just settling in at a place where I can post so I'm going to have get in late.

HOWEVER,

My answer to those who are criticizing josh, including you cheese, 11, and a host of others is:

20-26.

The darksiders ask: What has McCown done to deserve playing time?

Answer: 20-26

Q. How has Josh shown improvement over last year?

A. 20-26.

Statement: McCown totally fell apart last Sunday

A. 20-26?

I'm not saying Green shouldn't have yanked him. He should have. Maybe McCown should even sit a game.

But totally bailing on him now is ridiculous. Anybody who can complete that many passes against an NFL defense including 14 in a row or whatever (and I saw the yardage on those passes posted on another thread, so don't tell me they were all dink and dunks) with no interceptions deserves PT. Right now, McCown is the cardinals QB of the present and future.

Now, darksiders let me tell me where I agree with you:

He cried at the press conference. whoa.

Its one thing for a coach to cry when he retires, or when a 30-1 underdog boxer goes 15 rounds with Apollo Creed. (Adrian!!)

But crying when you get pulled from a game? Thats weak, plain and simple. Sorry Josh. But the announcers were talking you up about how tough you were because you worked in your Dads pallet factory or whatever. It looks like that was baloney.

Is he going to cry in the huddle if the other team starts calling him names?

I mean, Josh could probably whip my butt with one hand tied behind his back, but gee whiz. come on...

and do you know how many times he fumbled in the final game last year? four. I watched the tape about 20 times. The cards didn't lose one of them. It was truly a miracle that we won that game.

Anyway. I can see both sides here. There are some definite red flags going up, but not enough to write him off yet.

McCown gets at least a dozen more starts before we, as a message board, should seriously begin to evaluate his career potential.

Thanks for your time...

I just do not understand why people want to write the guy off now. I understand being frustrated, heck I understand benching him, something that never happend to Plummer, but why write the guy off now?

These people do realize King is our only real alternative to McCown right now and that it isn't as if we are hiding a future MVP on the bench don't they?

I think the whole thing boils down to people wanting kudos for saying we should have drafted a QB and they are still bitter about it. Green dosen't waste high picks on QB's very often so I fail to see what the problem with that is but whatever.

We did not draft a QB so right now the only logical thing to do is to see if Josh will pan out or not and give him time. I don't think the whole season is even required if he isn't better after Boldin is back then he probably won't be and we can play the 3rd string guy and King to see what they have.

 

[Cheesebeef]

McCown gets at least a dozen more starts before we, as a message board, should seriously begin to evaluate his career potential.

Thanks for your time...

whoa! I pretty much agreed with everything you wrote up until this last sentence. I for one - am not calling for him to be benched immediately - I have said that he shoudl start the next game - but if we suck again at the half, and it's close and we are clsoe in spite of him - I wouldn't hesitate to bring in King and see what else could be done - now that deosn't mean relegate Josh to the bench for the rest of the season or even for the next game - but you gotta see if the offense sucks because of the O-line or if the QB is really hurting us that much.

As far as 12 more games - well -- I can tell you this much - if he continues playing the way he has - (and you can throw out 20-26 all you want - but at under 200 yards - for the third week in a row - that mean he's averaging under 10 yards per completion - meaning he's not throwing down field and he's dinking and dunking - this offense doesn't really move all that much) and we aren't scoring any TDs - we should be able to tell by mid-season if this kid - who NEVER had at at the DIV 1 level and has already shown some of those negatives you alluded to above - actually has it or not. At that point - if there aren't signs of real progress (remember this isn't some rookie - he's been in over 15 games up to this point and started 6) I think we'll see Denny put his ass on the bench. Truth be told - anything Denny does as far as the QB goes I trust him right now . . .

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Conrad and Cheese: ok, hang in there guys. The next few weeks should be interesting at least!

 

[jstadvl]

Hey Crimson!!!

GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!! He didn't cry because he was yanked! As far as I can tell he didn't cry! He felt he let the D and team down. He was coming down on himself. So what if he cried?
I'd lay 100 to 1 odds you couldn't take the hits he has taken. That you'd either be out cold or CRYING!
His getting rapped up in this and blaming himsef is a good thing.
I've said it before, a man who isn't afraid to "cry" in public, is a man to be feared. Especially when people start making fun of him.
There's a rage building up inside him and he's going to unload on somebody.
Let the crying thing go.

 

[Cheesebeef]

GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!! He didn't cry because he was yanked! As far as I can tell he didn't cry! He felt he let the D and team down. He was coming down on himself. So what if he cried?
I'd lay 100 to 1 odds you couldn't take the hits he has taken. That you'd either be out cold or CRYING!
His getting rapped up in this and blaming himsef is a good thing.
I've said it before, a man who isn't afraid to "cry" in public, is a man to be feared. Especially when people start making fun of him.
There's a rage building up inside him and he's going to unload on somebody.
Let the crying thing go.

Have you ever seen Joe Montana, Tom Brady, Brett Favre, John Elway - forget it -- can you name me one great QB who you can remember crying after a loss? I can't and your point about whether or not Crimson would be crying is ridiculous - he's not in the NFL - and so are a lot of other people who can't hack it in the league.

 

[Russ Smith]

Have you ever seen Joe Montana, Tom Brady, Brett Favre, John Elway - forget it -- can you name me one great QB who you can remember crying after a loss? I can't and your point about whether or not Crimson would be crying is ridiculous - he's not in the NFL - and so are a lot of other people who can't hack it in the league.

kordell stewart... nevermind.

What we think of it is irrelevant, what his teammates think of it matters, I wonder what they think?

 

[Lars the Red]

Have you ever seen Joe Montana, Tom Brady, Brett Favre, John Elway - forget it -- can you name me one great QB who you can remember crying after a loss? I can't and your point about whether or not Crimson would be crying is ridiculous - he's not in the NFL - and so are a lot of other people who can't hack it in the league.

Favre has cried on several occasions. I vividly remember one coming after a loss, he tossed a couple of costly ints. He choked up, mumbled something about being 'so tired', and left the podium crying. Elway cried after a couple of brutal losses. Emmett cried. The long snapper for the Skins cried after he botched a field goal snap in the playoffs.

Your tough guy issue is irrelevant. Lot's of guys have cried after letting their team down. Exhausted, frustrated people sometimes can't keep their emotions under control. If you haven't had to deal with it, you haven't walked in their shoes and basically have no opinion to give.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Favre has cried on several occasions. I vividly remember one coming after a loss, he tossed a couple of costly ints. He choked up, mumbled something about being 'so tired', and left the podium crying. Elway cried after a couple of brutal losses. Emmett cried. The long snapper for the Skins cried after he botched a field goal snap in the playoffs.

Your tough guy issue is irrelevant. Lot's of guys have cried after letting their team down. Exhausted, frustrated people sometimes can't keep their emotions under control. If you haven't had to deal with it, you haven't walked in their shoes and basically have no opinion to give.

I for one - NEVER remember Favre crying afte a game - nor Elway - do you have any proof of this? And what happened to that long snapper for the GIANTS who botched the field goal attempt - oh yeah - HE RETIRED.

Oh and as far as Emmitt was concerned - I give him a pass - he was realizing that he made a monumental mistake signing with us and that his lfie was torture - he wasn't crying about the game - he was crying about his situation.

We'll see how the team responds behind our Kordell/Couch - who I'm sure EVERYONE on this board ripped to high hell when those guys cried - nice double standard though - when their player does something - they're a baby and a joke - when ours does it - he just cares too much - BS. The proof will be be in the pudding - and so far that pudding tastes like crap.