QB Situation- my $.02

[Russ Smith]

You make some sense here, but Green as already made the call. McCown back in.

Let the second-guessing and ankle-bitiing continue...

Did you hear his reasoning why, it was this thread in a microcosm.

something like Josh is going to be a terrific QB, everyone has a bad day, he can't turn the ball over, he gets that. We brought in a solid qb to come in when we needed, that's King, he understands what we want to do, and does it.

It was this thread to a T, if you could stick King's head on Josh we'd have Green's QB.

He even confirmed my entire thinking on young QB's who can run, their first thought is always run, while guys who can't run think throw it away(when both see pressure). He said running may seem more interesting, but throwing it away is usually better for your team. To paraphrase, Green said that today.

 

[MrY]

We have a long history of quarterback evaluation around here at ASFN.

If we take into account our track record with these evaluations, our best move would be to start McCown for the rest of the year, and extend his contract as soon as possible.

Lex.. I think a $16 mil signing bonus is in order as well.

 

[Russ Smith]

We have a long history of quarterback evaluation around here at ASFN.

If we take into account our track record with these evaluations, our best move would be to start McCown for the rest of the year, and extend his contract as soon as possible.

Ask the Bronco fans. I posted a thread today praising Jake for wearing Tillman's number. It turned into a bash Jake/defend Jake thread, completely without me. Seems a LOT of Bronco fans are wishing Jake was more accurate, and had a stronger arm, because they're really high on their WR corps but the coach wants to run the ball. Today on ESPN Shanahan said look even we can't run against a stacked defense, we see the chance to make plays in the air, we took some chances, made some plays, missed some easy ones, but we did enough t win the game.

Couldn't have a more ringing endorsement of that QB you were talking about, Shanahan basically said we had guys open all game, he hit enough of them to win the game, I hope he can do that against good teams.

When I last left that thread they were discussing which veteran QB should be picked up next year, and who they should draft. Remember that's AFTER Jake just missed his first 300 yard game, and had zero picks. But they see what we saw, on a much better team he still isn't impressing a lot of fans.

 

[conraddobler]

Did you hear his reasoning why, it was this thread in a microcosm.

something like Josh is going to be a terrific QB, everyone has a bad day, he can't turn the ball over, he gets that. We brought in a solid qb to come in when we needed, that's King, he understands what we want to do, and does it.

It was this thread to a T, if you could stick King's head on Josh we'd have Green's QB.

He even confirmed my entire thinking on young QB's who can run, their first thought is always run, while guys who can't run think throw it away(when both see pressure). He said running may seem more interesting, but throwing it away is usually better for your team. To paraphrase, Green said that today.

Excellent point and it is this thread to a t. What we all need to know is if McCown will get the not trying to be a hero concept in a reasonable amount of time.

He needs to think like an NFL QB not a college QB and to me since he hasn't started all that much in the NFL he is just reverting to College instincts where he was so comparitively fast that he could break a huge run if he needed to or simply lounge back there without fear of the rush. He's getting a real taste of the NFL because real bullets are firing and he's reverting to bad habits to survive.

My only point on the guy is that he hasn't had enough time to sort all of that out. He makes progress on parts of his game and he protects the ball well when throwing it just not holding it. He's already better at not throwing stupid picks than Plummer ever will be.

 

[clif]

one nice throw to Williams that good QBs make - the play to BJ - you mean where BJ was wide open and he had to turn the wrong to get the ball otherwise he would have more running room? That's a routine throw.

You know what though - and I don't mean this to be insulting but it probably will be - there's no reason in debating anything about football with someone who believed in Coach Mac up until they fired him - you destroyed any credibility in my eyes whatsoever when you made that comment and it explains EVERYTHING about your posts on almost every subject. Toodles.

and me wanting coach mac to do well has what to do with this?

The thing that gets me is that you apparently did not read my posts very well. Or in fact maybe I did not use the correct words to relay my point.

I am not sold on Josh, but you can't give up on him after 3 games

I do not know if he will or will not be a successful player in this league.

Shaun King is not the long term answer, and giving him a few starts is nothing but false hope.

The offense is lacking playmakers.

 

[Russ Smith]

Honestly I hope you get your wish and they start King against a good defensive team.

The standard you are holding McCown to is fine as long as your willing to eat your words when King overthrows wide open guys and plunks balls in the flat like he always does sooner or later if you watch any film of the guy.

He reminds me of a poor mans Kordell Stewart who can't run.

I think most of us agree, King is not the long term answer IMHO, but I'd rather have a QB who won't make crushing mistakes, than one who will. If josh were making big plays I'd tolerate the learning curve, but his one big play this year was a trick play.

Short term I think King is best for this team, longerterm we should invest in a time machine and go back and either draft Leftwich 2 years ago, Ben this year or sign kerry collins. Since we can't do that, we'll undoubtedly be looking for a veteran next year, unless somehow Navarre surprises the hell out of me and takes the job.

I agree everytime I've seen King he eventually starts missing open guys, or settling for the dumpoff, but I've never seen him just give the ball away either.

 

[Russ Smith]

Excellent point and it is this thread to a t. What we all need to know is if McCown will get the not trying to be a hero concept in a reasonable amount of time.

He needs to think like an NFL QB not a college QB and to me since he hasn't started all that much in the NFL he is just reverting to College instincts where he was so comparitively fast that he could break a huge run if he needed to or simply lounge back there without fear of the rush. He's getting a real taste of the NFL because real bullets are firing and he's reverting to bad habits to survive.

My only point on the guy is that he hasn't had enough time to sort all of that out. He makes progress on parts of his game and he protects the ball well when throwing it just not holding it. He's already better at not throwing stupid picks than Plummer ever will be.

What I found interesting was Green's comment that Josh is trying to run on plays that you can't run, screens, short drop plays, because by design the protection is very brief, and the DL will end up precisely where you're trying to run. And that you can't back up too far or you change the angle and your OL can't make the block. He talked about how many times the play calls for the ball to be gone, but it's not, and that's why there is pressure.

Green was quite frank, he likes the talent he sees, but so far Josh isn't executing. who knows maybe he saw enough of King yesterday to get that.

My impression is based on his college experience, Josh is not a quick learner, and when challenged, Josh doesn't always respond well.

 

[jstadvl]

How many

plays was King in for? Not enough to find out if he'd have been running for his life.

 

[DieHardFromMO]

It was this thread to a T, if you could stick King's head on Josh we'd have Green's QB.

Sounds like a Photoshop exercise waiting to happen for one of our resident experts on the subject.

 

[BigStick]

Did you hear his reasoning why, it was this thread in a microcosm.

something like Josh is going to be a terrific QB, everyone has a bad day, he can't turn the ball over, he gets that. We brought in a solid qb to come in when we needed, that's King, he understands what we want to do, and does it.

It was this thread to a T, if you could stick King's head on Josh we'd have Green's QB.

He even confirmed my entire thinking on young QB's who can run, their first thought is always run, while guys who can't run think throw it away(when both see pressure). He said running may seem more interesting, but throwing it away is usually better for your team. To paraphrase, Green said that today.

But he is also saying he would rather have a QB with the intangebles of scrambling in order to make a defense accountable. A young guy like Steve Young didn't get it until he had been around awhile. Neither did Daunte Culpepper but these guys always made a Defense account for there ability to take off. With limited weapons on offense and a suspect Running game you have to keep the intangeble of your QB running in the Offense. It is another weapon that has to be schemed by a defense. King won't give us that intangeble. If Josh gets over his fumbleitis and has a game or two that he clicks he could really be a good QB. He has had to face 3 pretty good defenses so far. The next 3 games should tell us all we will need to know about this QB. A running QB is not a bad thing. A young running QB is a liability until he gets seasoned. This has proven to be the case just about every time. The thing is we have focused so much on the QB that no one wants to address the more serious problems with this team. There is no running game to speak of and no proven guy to get them over the hump. That is where not getting a proven runner this off season has sunk this teams season this year. We all wanted Emmitt to be like Allen was for DG late in his career but that seems to be a stretch now.

 

[conraddobler]

I think most of us agree, King is not the long term answer IMHO, but I'd rather have a QB who won't make crushing mistakes, than one who will. If josh were making big plays I'd tolerate the learning curve, but his one big play this year was a trick play.

Short term I think King is best for this team, longerterm we should invest in a time machine and go back and either draft Leftwich 2 years ago, Ben this year or sign kerry collins. Since we can't do that, we'll undoubtedly be looking for a veteran next year, unless somehow Navarre surprises the hell out of me and takes the job.

I agree everytime I've seen King he eventually starts missing open guys, or settling for the dumpoff, but I've never seen him just give the ball away either.

I am not saying our offense wouldn't possibly function more efficiently with King not at all. I would think we would have scored at least enough to win one if not two more games.

Hindsight is 20 20 and maybe DG would have gone back and started him if he could have but now that we are 0 and 3 I think you also have to change your mindset a bit and be more practical about the situation.

DG hasn't got that much invested in Josh, yeah he talked him up but he talked Kendall up too and sumarily cut the guy. DG dosen't hold onto his mistakes like our former staff did. I think he'd bench Josh for good if he honestly did not believe he was right about his belief in the kid.

A day after a game like that when you have finished watching the tape would be a perfect time to say hey the kid needs to sit for a while but he didn't do that he said he's his starter again.

I think DG is a very practical guy and he needs to know if he's going to cut Josh lose at the end of the year or build the offense around him. I don't think he himself knows what's going to happen for sure but I think he's leaning towards playing Josh and seeing if he develops because it's a simple risk reward problem.

Josh will either live up to his potential or he will stall and this year is the only year DG has the luxury of finding that out because his honeymoon will be over next year. He's gambling on the kid and I think it's just an educated gamble that will either pay off in a huge way or DG will move on.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I am not saying our offense wouldn't possibly function more efficiently with King not at all. I would think we would have scored at least enough to win one if not two more games.

Hindsight is 20 20 and maybe DG would have gone back and started him if he could have but now that we are 0 and 3 I think you also have to change your mindset a bit and be more practical about the situation.

DG hasn't got that much invested in Josh, yeah he talked him up but he talked Kendall up too and sumarily cut the guy. DG dosen't hold onto his mistakes like our former staff did. I think he'd bench Josh for good if he honestly did not believe he was right about his belief in the kid.

A day after a game like that when you have finished watching the tape would be a perfect time to say hey the kid needs to sit for a while but he didn't do that he said he's his starter again.

I think DG is a very practical guy and he needs to know if he's going to cut Josh lose at the end of the year or build the offense around him. I don't think he himself knows what's going to happen for sure but I think he's leaning towards playing Josh and seeing if he develops because it's a simple risk reward problem.

Josh will either live up to his potential or he will stall and this year is the only year DG has the luxury of finding that out because his honeymoon will be over next year. He's gambling on the kid and I think it's just an educated gamble that will either pay off in a huge way or DG will move on.

I agree with this - and if King comes out and plays like crap - I'll definitely say so - but eat my words - I don't thinl - in fact I know I have never said King was all that. I'll continue to stand behind this statement - I fully support Josh starting the next game - but if there isn't progress in the first half and it's close and we have zero points or three points - I wouldn't be surprised to see King in there in the second and wouldn't have a problem with it at all.

 

[Buckybird]

Josh was bad for a bad SMU team and good in the less competive Sam Houston St. Enough said. What makes everyone on this board see's in him
is blowing my mind. I've seen him play @SMU and never thought he was anything special. I think the kids brother is better than him! King could run this offense better(similar to Tulanes pass happy O in college).

 

[Russ Smith]

But he is also saying he would rather have a QB with the intangebles of scrambling in order to make a defense accountable. A young guy like Steve Young didn't get it until he had been around awhile. Neither did Daunte Culpepper but these guys always made a Defense account for there ability to take off. With limited weapons on offense and a suspect Running game you have to keep the intangeble of your QB running in the Offense. It is another weapon that has to be schemed by a defense. King won't give us that intangeble. If Josh gets over his fumbleitis and has a game or two that he clicks he could really be a good QB. He has had to face 3 pretty good defenses so far. The next 3 games should tell us all we will need to know about this QB. A running QB is not a bad thing. A young running QB is a liability until he gets seasoned. This has proven to be the case just about every time. The thing is we have focused so much on the QB that no one wants to address the more serious problems with this team. There is no running game to speak of and no proven guy to get them over the hump. That is where not getting a proven runner this off season has sunk this teams season this year. We all wanted Emmitt to be like Allen was for DG late in his career but that seems to be a stretch now.

See the threads I started on trading for a RB, I agree if we want to win this year we have to.

But I also think we'll run better with King than we have with Josh because we'll see a different defense.

I think we agree on what Green said, but remember the number Culpepper put up his first year as a starter, having sat one year, he was WAY.

ahead of Josh at this point

 

[TheCardFan]

That's where you are wrong. With decent QB play, the Cards are at least 2-1, if not better. So, its McCown who couldn't get seperation against the Rams Db's...The Seahawks aren't that good. LOL...only a Top 5 team. The Rams and 49ers suck. Agreed.

 

[conraddobler]

See the threads I started on trading for a RB, I agree if we want to win this year we have to.

But I also think we'll run better with King than we have with Josh because we'll see a different defense.

I think we agree on what Green said, but remember the number Culpepper put up his first year as a starter, having sat one year, he was WAY.

ahead of Josh at this point

Josh sat 2 years under the old regime and Culpepper sat one under Green.

Advantage Culpepper.... LOL

I think people hesitate to remember just what Josh may have been taught or not taught by our intrepid previous offensive geniuses.

No one claims Josh is a fast learner, I certainly don't see that he is but he isn't horribly slow either. He hasn't had that much time to actually apply what I am sure Green has been telling him but benching him is exactly the way to beat that kind of thing into his brain.

I think DG so far is handling it fine and if he needs to ride the pine a few more times or the rest of the season I am fine with it.

DG knows what he is doing and will eventually get through to him if anyone can.

Josh can cry all he wants but the man that inflicted that pain is his ONLY shot in this league and if he does make it he will owe everything to DG because Mac may have drafted him a bit earlier than he was projected but others were going to chance a 4th rounder on him.

Had Mac hung around and started Josh he would have flamed out in utter disaster without any possible hope of redemption. DG is attacking all his weak points so Josh will have no one to blame but himself if he fails.

 

[Russ Smith]

Josh can cry all he wants but the man that inflicted that pain is his ONLY shot in this league and if he does make it he will owe everything to DG because Mac may have drafted him a bit earlier than he was projected but others were going to chance a 4th rounder on him.

Had Mac hung around and started Josh he would have flamed out in utter disaster without any possible hope of redemption. DG is attacking all his weak points so Josh will have no one to blame but himself if he fails.

Agreed, I had very little confidence in josh until we hired Green. If there's a coach in the NFL that can get McCown to play well this early in his career, it's Green.

I think this is a perfect example of why King is the backup and not Blake, anybody think Blake would be saying what King said about supporting josh?

My guess is that's what Green realized, if josh struggles, Blake will make waves and I don't want that over Josh' head.

 

[GreenCard]

If we are going to replace Josh's head let's put Green's head on him instead of Kings.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Josh sat 2 years under the old regime and Culpepper sat one under Green.

Advantage Culpepper.... LOL

I think people hesitate to remember just what Josh may have been taught or not taught by our intrepid previous offensive geniuses.

No one claims Josh is a fast learner, I certainly don't see that he is but he isn't horribly slow either. He hasn't had that much time to actually apply what I am sure Green has been telling him but benching him is exactly the way to beat that kind of thing into his brain.

I think DG so far is handling it fine and if he needs to ride the pine a few more times or the rest of the season I am fine with it.

DG knows what he is doing and will eventually get through to him if anyone can.

Josh can cry all he wants but the man that inflicted that pain is his ONLY shot in this league and if he does make it he will owe everything to DG because Mac may have drafted him a bit earlier than he was projected but others were going to chance a 4th rounder on him.

Had Mac hung around and started Josh he would have flamed out in utter disaster without any possible hope of redemption. DG is attacking all his weak points so Josh will have no one to blame but himself if he fails.

Sorry, but there's little I agree with here, at least in the 2nd half of this post.

First of all, it really does personally pizz me off how a few people here riducule Josh for being emotional. To me it just shows how cempetitive he is and how bad he wants to help the team. He's never been anything but a complete team player. I'm glad to see benching bother him so much. At least he cares. Not like so many players that have come and gone through here the past few years who were only here for a paycheck.

And this constant blaming of Mac for every little detail under the sun just plain gets ridiculous and carried away, at times...and the comments made above are certainly no exception, in their insinuation that Josh was doomed to fail simply because, "Mac started him, instead of Dennis Green."

Yes, any coach has ultimate responsibility for the overall team performance.
But Mac was never an offensive coach, never pretended to be. Just like Tony Dungy. Dungy is a defensive coach too. He doesn't meddle with the offense, just like Mac didn't.
The only fault with Mac was not getting someone who was capable overseeing the offense properly. The Cards haven't had a decent offensive coordinator here since Fassel left, IMO.

 

[40yearfan]

I am simply amazed that anyone would think King would be a better QB for this team than McCown. For crying out loud, McCown was 20 for 26 yesterday and it was only his 6th complete NFL game. Does anyone want to check and see how Favre or Elway played in their 6th game?

Did he drop some balls? Yes. Young QB's make mistakes. You need to have patience and allow them to develope. Calling for McCown's head after only 3 games is kinda silly.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I am simply amazed that anyone would think King would be a better QB for this team than McCown. For crying out loud, McCown was 20 for 26 yesterday and it was only his 6th complete NFL game. Does anyone want to check and see how Favre or Elway played in their 6th game?

Did he drop some balls? Yes. Young QB's make mistakes. You need to have patience and allow them to develope. Calling for McCown's head after only 3 games is kinda silly.

Yeah - Jeez - it's not like Tom Brady came in in his second year on a horrible team and completely changed the face of it - or Jake Delhomme came in and immediately won his first three games and six out of seven or Lefty didn't come in in his first year and win his second game and have his team in every game, without all the fumbles . . . or Ben R didn't lead to Pittsburg to a road victory or McNabb didn't come in and immediatley turn around what had been a terrible Eagles team the year before . . . or Pennington didn't completely change the face of his squad immediately revitalizing a Jets team that had been in a tailspin sicne Parcells left him at the alter . . . or how Daunte Culpepper didn't come in and immediately light the entire world on fire in his first year . . . or should I go on here? As far as Favre was concerned - he took what was a horrible GB team to the playoffs in it's first year - did he makes some mistakes - sure - but he MORE than made up for them with TDs, leadership and well, not crying after losses.

This is Josh's third year and he still hasn't learned pocket awareness which was one of his MAJOR problems last year and he can't make the big plays on offense - I just don't see that spark right now in him and by now we should be seeing progression - it ain't there. He gets another half to show me he can do something, but if he comes out for the fourth straight game - with nothing to show for it -like he has in the first three first halves - at some point you gotta look reality in the face and realize the great ones - hell even the mediocre ones like Jon Kitna, showed you something every week.

 

[burndoggy]

nice picture of josh.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

But he is also saying he would rather have a QB with the intangebles of scrambling in order to make a defense accountable.

Dear sweet lord NO!!!

Not the dreaded intangebels!

Ughgghhh

Now this really is turning into a Jake Plummer thread!

 

[Lars the Red]

Brady is a freak? Not very fast, not that big, not much of an arm. What he does have is great poise, great vision, great pocket presence and great accuracy. Just out of curiosity, which of those things does King not possess?.

Well, you took the drama out of your thread right off the bat with this little gem. Fast? No, but he's not a boat anchor either. Not big? 6'4" 225lb may not be big to a giant of a man like yourself, but that's a big man in most people's book. Not much of an arm? Granted, he's not a young Favre or Elway, but he can throw deep, he can throw an out, he has great touch when he needs it and can zip it when called for. His arm is as complete as anyone in the league. His intangibles are what make him a freak. No one in there right mind thought he would develop like he did. King held the ball way too long on the sack by Kearny. All camp, his throws were anything but accurate. He hasn't faced the pressure that Josh has for the last 3 games, so his poise isn't relevent.

Pennington and Leftwich were 1st rounders, King was a second rounder, McCown a third rounder. Doesn't matter, since Brady was a 6th rounder, Montana a 3rd rounder, Delhomme and Warner were undrafted....I could go on..

Pennington has had health issues because of his inexperience. Leftwich is having anything but a banner year. King's opportunity came along because of injuries in Tampa. Brady's too. Montana was a freak. Delhomme languished in Europe and learned his craft as did Warner in the Arena. Your efforts to ignore others points are only making their arguements for them.

.

Wait- So you want to let 3rd year McCown "develop" even though he's shown nothing, yet you want to label 2nd year Palmer making his 3rd start a bust.....not following that logic..

Shown nothing, hmmm, if you don't see a difference from last year to this year, then maybe we should just choose to not talk football, because a blind man could see improvement.

.

David Carr led a drive that won the game for his team yesterday....McCown, short of a hail mary, hasn't won a game in the NFL..

Great for Carr. I think it's wonderful that a great kid like that, carrying a #1 pick status, and having most of his offensive weapons on the field gets a chance to win a game.

.

Rothlisberger hasn't been dominating? He's played 1 game in hurricane conditions and he still got his team in the end zone. Big Ben is the real deal.

So one win and a TD are all you need to consider Josh dominating too? I was really hoping for a little more than that.

 

[Cheesebeef]

.Shown nothing, hmmm, if you don't see a difference from last year to this year, then maybe we should just choose to not talk football, because a blind man could see improvement.

are you talking about the team as a whole or just Josh here - that blind man's got AWFULLY good sight if he somehow has seen improvement in Josh so far . . . .