Quarterback Decision Looms

[Cards232]

Then Warner should be playing for Martz in SF, because that's not the offense Whiz wants to run here.

...but even Martz didn't want Warner starting for him anymore.

Martz is a brilliant offensive mind, but was a horrible head coach & administrator. As far as Martz not wanting Warner starting anymore, we all know what happened to Martz don't we. Martz made a lot of bad moves due to his arrogance. He really thinks he can make any qb the greatest ever. He once said that Kitna was the best qb he ever coached. Not necessarily a ringing endorsement of Martz don't ya think?

Go ask most Rams if they feel getting rid of Warner was a good move. Especially given Bulger's performance over the last number of years.

 

[Mitch]

Martz is a brilliant offensive mind, but was a horrible head coach & administrator. As far as Martz not wanting Warner starting anymore, we all know what happened to Martz don't we. Martz made a lot of bad moves due to his arrogance. He really thinks he can make any qb the greatest ever. He once said that Kitna was the best qb he ever coached. Not necessarily a ringing endorsement of Martz don't ya think?

Go ask most Rams if they feel getting rid of Warner was a good move. Especially given Bulger's performance over the last number of years.

Great post, Cards 232!

 

[RugbyMuffin]

we aren't the Rams and this isn't 7 years ago so whatever players worried about facing Warner then has nothing to do with why he should be playing now.

That would be 2001, the last year Kurt played 16 games, and had All-Pro stats for those scoring at home.

:ducksbackoutofpicture:

 

[Cards232]

we aren't the Rams and this isn't 7 years ago so whatever players worried about facing Warner then has nothing to do with why he should be playing now.

It's the same mindset & game he plays to which I speak. With the weapons we have, & if the o-line is able to do their job, that fear can be struck once again. If I'm not mistaken, Warner & the Cards put up more points than anyone in the NFL in the second half of the season, & that's w/ the nagging injuries that beset us all year & w/ Warner throwing w/ one arm tied behind his back. Trust me, opposing teams right now would much rather go against Leinart than Warner.

Talk to some of the fantasy experts & ask who they would rather have. Warner overwhelmingly! There's a reason for that, & it's not b/c of what he did w/ the rams 7 years ago, but rather what they feel he can do NOW.

 

[Mitch]

It's the same mindset & game he plays to which I speak. With the weapons we have, & if the o-line is able to do their job, that fear can be struck once again. If I'm not mistaken, Warner & the Cards put up more points than anyone in the NFL in the second half of the season, & that's w/ the nagging injuries that beset us all year & w/ Warner throwing w/ one arm tied behind his back. Trust me, opposing teams right now would much rather go against Leinart than Warner.

Talk to some of the fantasy experts & ask who they would rather have. Warner overwhelmingly! There's a reason for that, & it's not b/c of what he did w/ the rams 7 years ago, but rather what they feel he can do NOW.

I vote you in as poster of the night, Cards232. Right on, bro!

 

[moklerman]

we aren't the Rams and this isn't 7 years ago so whatever players worried about facing Warner then has nothing to do with why he should be playing now.

We get it. You don't like, have never liked and never will like Warner and no matter how he plays, it doesn't count when it's good and his games with broken bones are how he's predestined to play in the future. That pretty much cover it?

 

[Pariah]

Go ask most Rams if they feel getting rid of Warner was a good move.

I did, back when we got him. Most of them thought he was done.

Here's where I found the rams fans: www.clanram.com

As for Martz thinking Kitna was the best QB he's coached, it may not be such a ringing endorsement of Warner either. I tend to think Warner is somewhere between a product of the GSOT system/parts (WRs, Faulk) and he was the stick that stirred the drink. But, it sounds to me like maybe Martz thought Warner was the former.

 

[Cards232]

That would be 2001, the last year Kurt played 16 games, and had All-Pro stats for those scoring at home.

:ducksbackoutofpicture:

What do you feel Warner's stats would have been if had started all year, last year? Maybe the best in the league, & certainly All Pro.

Also, he hasn't played too many 16 game seasons for reasons beyond his control. 2003, coaches decision. 2004, coaches decision. 2007, coaches decision. And it's not like he missed huge amounts of time in 2006-2006 due to injuries even though he was getting slaughtered b/c of our o-line. Just food for thought.

 

[Cards232]

I did, back when we got him. Most of them thought he was done.

Here's where I found the rams fans: www.clanram.com

As for Martz thinking Kitna was the best QB he's coached, it may not be such a ringing endorsement of Warner either. I tend to think Warner is somewhere between a product of the GSOT system/parts (WRs, Faulk) and he was the stick that stirred the drink. But, it sounds to me like maybe Martz thought Warner was the former.

Most of them thought he was done then due to the circumstances then surrounding him. Go ask now & see what they think. They fear Warner far more than Leinart at this point.

Warner's ringing endorsement doesn't come from Martz, rather from what he's accomplished w/ what he's had. Just look at what he accomplished last year w/ one arm tied behind his back, & with all the injuries on the team.

Incidentally, you might check out these postings on a current Rams board: http://www.realramsfans.com/viewtopic.php?t=43594

 

[RugbyMuffin]

What do you feel Warner's stats would have been if had started all year, last year? Maybe the best in the league, & certainly All Pro.

Also, he hasn't played too many 16 game seasons for reasons beyond his control. 2003, coaches decision. 2004, coaches decision. 2007, coaches decision. And it's not like he missed huge amounts of time in 2006-2006 due to injuries even though he was getting slaughtered b/c of our o-line. Just food for thought.

That his stats would be AWESOME. He stays healthy and keeps the pace up that he had last year and he is an all pro and has a couple records. It is an assumption to say he would be able to keep that pace, but there is no doubting that Warner had a great 8 games last year.

Not playing 16 games is certainly beyond his control. You are right about that. But facts are facts. He hasn't started 16 games since 2001.

If he is chosen the starter I have no problem with it at all. If he is given the job then I do.

Leinart being named the starter at the begining of camp makes sense because he is younger, he is NOT a free agent at the end of the year, and the coaches have faith in him.

Now he has to continue to perform and keep from losing his job from Warner. That is all I am saying.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

We get it. You don't like, have never liked and never will like Warner and no matter how he plays, it doesn't count when it's good and his games with broken bones are how he's predestined to play in the future. That pretty much cover it?

Darn that invisible text!

I can't find where he said all that but I am sure it is there.

 

[moklerman]

I can't find where he said all that but I am sure it is there.

You have to be able to read minds. But, I'm pretty sure he's actually stated it in a post that I'm too lazy to look up.

 

[Cards232]

That his stats would be AWESOME. He stays healthy and keeps the pace up that he had last year and he is an all pro and has a couple records. It is an assumption to say he would be able to keep that pace, but there is no doubting that Warner had a great 8 games last year.

Not playing 16 games is certainly beyond his control. You are right about that. But facts are facts. He hasn't started 16 games since 2001.

If he is chosen the starter I have no problem with it at all. If he is given the job then I do.

Leinart being named the starter at the begining of camp makes sense because he is younger, he is NOT a free agent at the end of the year, and the coaches have faith in him.

Now he has to continue to perform and keep from losing his job from Warner. That is all I am saying.

Good post. I think there is ZERO chance of Warner being "given" the job. If he is named the starter, it will definitely be b/c he earned it. If anyone has a shot of just being "given" the job, it's Leinart.

Let's both hope whoever is named the starter earned it & is the best choice.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Goodness 20 pages.

But you know what they say.......Pimpin' ain't easy

"Only 9 mil a season......and he throws doooooooooooooown the field."

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Let's both hope whoever is named the starter earned it & is the best choice.

DARN tootin!

I could care less as long as we win.

 

[Cheesebeef]

We get it. You don't like, have never liked and never will like Warner and no matter how he plays, it doesn't count when it's good and his games with broken bones are how he's predestined to play in the future. That pretty much cover it?

uh, no, it really doesn't cover it all. I I LOVED Kurt Warner when he was on the Rams his first three years. They were my 2nd favorite team and were a spectacle to behold. I don't even believe he was a system QB as he played some of the finest football I've ever seen for a that brief period. I also really liked it when we signed him and always thought he should play over McCown who had no future whatsoever. I just think he's taken too many hits, had too many injuries and turns the ball over too much to expect anything other than mediocrity. Just because I don't think he's a very good QB and that consistently take apart what I believe to be really poor arguments to back up the idea that he is a very good QB doesn't mean "I don't like him, up your point that he is a very good QB doesn't mean I don't like him, never liked him and never will like him." I think he's a GREAT Backup QB and a mediocre starter. That's all. It's nothing personal no matter how much you want it to be, nor how many hissy-fit like posts you make or how many completely untrue words you put in my mouth.

As far as the post you quoted which apparently made you "get" that I never, will never, yada, yada... I just think comparing this Cardinals team with Warner at this point in his career to one of the greatest offenses of all time as a reason to start him because we will scare other opponents into making mistake like the Rams did doesn't seem like a very valid comparison. Call me (and probably the rest of the world) crazy on that thought.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You have to be able to read minds. But, I'm pretty sure he's actually stated it in a post that I'm too lazy to look up.

or maybe my mind doesn't just see things in black and white. You can criticize a guy without hating him. Calling him a mediocre starter at this point in his care... eh, why do I bother. You think the Bengals possibly made the wrong move supplanting Jon Kitna with Carson Palmer. Like I said back then (and should have stuck by), there's no need every discussing anything relating to QB decisions ever again after that one, especially when you just start throwing hissy-fits and lying about what I've said in the past. I mean, it's one thing to make what I believe to be really poor arguments. Everyone's got that right and it's what conversation pretty interesting, but when you just start outright lying repeatedly about someone else or something, that's not a conversation worth having.

 

[moklerman]

there's no need every discussing anything relating to QB decisions ever again after that one

but you don't see things in black & white. Apparently explaining my reasoning and supplying statistics to support my beliefs is a hissy-fit in your eyes so I think it's very apparent who's wasting their time in trying to have a conversation.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Apparently explaining my reasoning and supplying statistics to support my beliefs is a hissy-fit in your eyes so I think it's very apparent who's wasting their time in trying to have a conversation.

this is supplying statistics to support your beliefs?:

"We get it. You don't like, have never liked and never will like Warner and no matter how he plays, it doesn't count when it's good and his games with broken bones are how he's predestined to play in the future. That pretty much cover it?"

this is what I referred to as a hissy-fit. Hard to see the statistical analysis in there. Jeez, man, first you falsely accuse of me disliking Warner now, then and forever afterward, and then you somehow state that I thought your stat analysis were hissy-fits, even though I was directly responding to the above, which had ZERO STAT ANALYSIS whatsoever. Sorry man, people start putting lies into my mouth and the convo's done as they obviously have nothing else to say and just want to get into a flame war. been there, done that. don't need to do it anymore.

 

[moklerman]

Sorry man, people start putting lies into my mouth and the convo's done as they obviously have nothing else to say and just want to get into a flame war. been there, done that. don't need to do it anymore.

Okay, let's look at the Kitna/Palmer situation as an example. You think it's ridiculous and discredits any opinion I might have about any subject. Have you actually taken the time to look at what the Bengals have done since the change? They had a really good year in 2005 and Palmer excelled but the last two years (I'm not going to bring in Palmer's rookie year as a starter since that is generally unfair), they were 7-9 and 8-8. Right where they were when they replaced Kitna. Kitna put up 26/15 in 2003 and was replaced. Palmer has put up 28/13 and 26/20 the last two years.

Now, I'm still not arguing that Kitna's a better QB but I think there is certainly some validity to the thought that the timing and way that Kitna was replaced may have had adverse affects on the team. This is one of the most dysfunctional teams in the league and it's management/coaching staff don't merit the benefit of doubt when you look at everything else they've done.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Okay, let's look at the Kitna/Palmer situation as an example. You think it's ridiculous and discredits any opinion I might have about any subject.

man, more words into my mouth. I never said the Kitna/Palmer thing discredits any opinion you might have about any subject, just that IMO it discredits you in regards to QB comparisons. I generally think you have a pretty good head on your shoulders regarding everything not Kurt related. I just think your admitted bias towards Kurt clouds your judgement there and for some reason makes you take criticism said about him personal.

 

[clif]

To be clear, I don't blame that loss completely on Warner but given how it finished he certainly will share a large portion of the blame. The game ended with him fumbling the ball so that will be the lasting image of that game for me and I'm sure alot of people.

I actually like Warner, but over the past few years he has been here I have grown to see the limitations in his game and I agree with Cheese that he just wouldn't lead this team to anything other than mediocrity. Sorry but that is not enough.

 

[D-Dogg]

I hate you cheese. You are actually following this thread and every time I want to post something, I read on and see you've said it...better than I was planning to.

You are a bitch. We must fight now. Hands up, bro!!!!

 

[moklerman]

I never said the Kitna/Palmer thing discredits any opinion you might have about any subject,

Geez, Louise. I was just paraphrasing. I assumed that you would remember what I was referencing and maybe stick to the football talk. Let's not keep re-visiting the personal aspects and interpretations. I was trying to get you to comment on the Palmer/Kitna scenario since you seemed so adamant when it was first mentioned. You think replacing Kitna with Palmer at the time and in that way was best for the Bengals because....

 

[Russ Smith]

Again, good points. But w/ Warner, as w/ Favre, their level of play had more to do w/ their surrounding team than w/ any declining abilities. Warner played reasonably well w/ an absolutely putrid Giants team. He did likewise his first couple of year w/ us on, lets face it, putrid teams. Favre had a similar experience for the last few years.

How is it that both did soooo well last year even as they got older? Could it be that the skills were always there, but the surrounding teams weren't? One rarely, if ever, hears about great qb's on crappy teams. Great qb's normally are on great TEAMS. Neither Warner nor Favre have had that for some time. This year MAY be different for Warner. Hope springs eternal.

Warner didn't play reasonably well with the Giants, he got punch drunk there just like he did here in 06 and couldn't stop turning the ball over. Admittedly they were going to play Manning eventually anyways they were paying him too much not to, but Kurt made it easy he fumbled 12 times including a 3 game stretch where he had 2, 3 and 3 fumbles. Ironically he didn't fumble once the next week against.... wait for it... the Cardinals!

We won that game, Kurt played solid no turnovers but after the game they apparently decided to go with Eli since Kurt only played once the rest of the season. And why did they bench Kurt after that game, because he was sacked 6 times. His last 4 starts he was sacked 6, 5, 7 and 6, quick math tells me he was being sacked on average 6 times a game, 39 sacks in 277 pass attempts. They benched him to save his life. They benched him because it was impossible for them to protect Kurt he was so far gone at the time he was a sack waiting to happen, he had Rob Johnson disease.

Same year same team as a rookie Eli was sacked 13 times in about 200 attempts, so it wasn't just a bad Giants OL that made Warner look that bad, it was Kurt, he was acting like a punch drunk boxer.

I don't argue that if the team is better the player will probably play better my point is it's not a winning bet to assume that's going to be the case every year.