Ray Lewis to Arizona?

[spanky1]

All talent is diminishing though. James has 2188 carries in his NFL career, yes he'll only be 28 in August but he's at about the same number of carries Faulk was when he started to slow down. I think James will be fine this year and probably next year too but at that point we're talking about 2800 carries in his career. Edge is already in the top 15 alltime in carries I think(don't quote me having a hard time finding such a list). Great player and he'd make us MUCH better right away, but that's a lot of carries, especially for a guy who's played his whole career on turf.

My point is about the value of Lewis... and the importance of maximizing FA dollars.

And yes.....all talent is diminishing, after all unless I'm wrong, we begin to die once we are born.

 

[Russ Smith]

My point is about the value of Lewis... and the importance of maximizing FA dollars.

And yes.....all talent is diminishing, after all unless I'm wrong, we begin to die once we are born.

I'm merely saying your argument against Lewis is about his age, and yet you're ready to commit huge dollars to a RB who's had a ton of carries.

Both guys would help the team immensely, quite frankly unless we suddenly pony up for bonuses we won't get either guy.

 

[spanky1]

I'm merely saying your argument against Lewis is about his age, and yet you're ready to commit huge dollars to a RB who's had a ton of carries.

Both guys would help the team immensely, quite frankly unless we suddenly pony up for bonuses we won't get either guy.

Russ,

My concerns about Lewis go way beyond his age. Please read the list of reasons I don't like Lewis in FA without mentioning this only one.

And I researched the carries issue re: Faulk vs. James and reported back to you on another post.

In case you missed it:

a) Faulk in his 1st 7 years as a Colt/Ram carried the ball approximately 1910-1980 times (exact figures for 1995 are not availabale to me through my research, so I averaged out the carries between 1994 and 1996 to get a ball park best guess).

b) James carried the ball 2190 times in his 1st 7 years as a Colt.

The difference, as you can see, is marginal.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

The difference, as you can see, is marginal.

No it's not. 270 carries is about a full season of wear and you coulod mention that Edge blew out his knee and that his runing style absorbs much more hits than Faulk's. Two completely different scenarios.

 

[gamebird98]

Well it is obvious that you are in a minority here. I could care less that he was ONCE a great football player (and the operative word is once). He isn't now. This team does not need "once a king". Sounds like Warner

 

[spanky1]

No it's not. 270 carries is about a full season of wear and you coulod mention that Edge blew out his knee and that his runing style absorbs much more hits than Faulk's. Two completely different scenarios.

Allow me........7 seasons divided by 270 carries = 38 extra carries a year....divided by 16 games= 2.5 carries a game. He blew out his knee....yup he did in 2001, 5 years ago without further incident.

 

[joeshmo]

Allow me........7 seasons divided by 270 carries = 38 extra carries a year....divided by 16 games= 2.5 carries a game. He blew out his knee....yup he did in 2001, 5 years ago without further incident.

Oh man if that isnt spin I dont know what is.

Spanky come on. You have got to be kidding. Nice deflection yet very faulty way of devaluing the number that Mao gave out. Of course it isnt going to look like much when you divide it over a 7 year period. But no matter how you want to spin it it is a full years more running, period, end of story. Also James has 293 more runs then Faulk does, not 270. Here is the only number you need to know, 293, 293 more hits to the body, 293 more runs, cuts, spins, ect.

 

[joeshmo]

I'm not afraid to use cap dollars to pay anyone......I am opposed to using cap dollars on a player who is looking to make a killing and who is 31, who is coming off the last two years with more than just small nagging injuries and who is no longer effective sideline to sideline in the absence of strong DT's to help him look good.

First the so called nagging injuries only happened last year not 2 years in a row. Second, as far as being effective, he had 9.75 tackles for his first 8 years in the league, his last 2 years 9.2. Hardly a decline and hardly missing the big fatties in front of him. Diminishing talent not according to the stats, and the intangibles that he would bring.

Furthermore, we have Warner to sign, at least two linemen (one as a minimum on offense and one on defense.....and I'm tired of second teir signings), a rookie pool for seven draft picks, potentially a FS and a RB. I also want to re up with a couple of our own stars (Dansby in particular). Unless my math is cockeyed, that should account for any cap room we have.

The Math isnt cockeyed but it is using archiac budgeting of old. You are thinking in terms of straight line deals that we are so famous for(not in a good way). Think in terms of back loading contracts. And no that doesnt mean salary cap hell later on. It means creative use of the cap, maximizing the cap, like 75% of the rest of the league does. I have explained this to death in the past and dont feel like doing it again since some dont feel the need to ignore it and keep thinking that the Cards way of doing contracts is the standard.

We have plenty of cap space to do what you want to do and more. As for Dansby why do it now when he is signed through 2007, we dont have to rush like we did Boldin who was wanting a new contract, Dansby isnt doing the same thing and doesnt have the same leverage as Boldin. His new deal will wait, which is good business sense.

 

[spanky1]

First the so called nagging injuries only happened last year not 2 years in a row. Second, as far as being effective, he had 9.75 tackles for his first 8 years in the league, his last 2 years 9.2. Hardly a decline and hardly missing the big fatties in front of him. Diminishing talent not according to the stats, and the intangibles that he would bring.



The Math isnt cockeyed but it is using archiac budgeting of old. You are thinking in terms of straight line deals that we are so famous for(not in a good way). Think in terms of back loading contracts. And no that doesnt mean salary cap hell later on. It means creative use of the cap, maximizing the cap, like 75% of the rest of the league does. I have explained this to death in the past and dont feel like doing it again since some dont feel the need to ignore it and keep thinking that the Cards way of doing contracts is the standard.

We have plenty of cap space to do what you want to do and more. As for Dansby why do it now when he is signed through 2007, we dont have to rush like we did Boldin who was wanting a new contract, Dansby isnt doing the same thing and doesnt have the same leverage as Boldin. His new deal will wait, which is good business sense.

joeshmo.....whatever.....go ahead and sign Lewis....and whatever old aging former pro bowler that gets mentioned on this thread.

I'll see you all around draft time.

 

[Redrage]

All I know is that no signing ever improved my Madden Cardinals like Ray Lewis!

 

[vinnymac]

i am not here to criticize anyone opinion on what the cardinals should do this offseason, but anyone who says that lewis is done, they are saddly mistaken. lewis has 3 to 4 good years in him. granted he is older and he not as fast as he use to be. he is still one of the league top defensive player. like other poster have stated ray lewis only make his team mates better. that is what a young team needs.

 

[spanky1]

On Lewis' "nagging injuries":

In 2005, he played in 6 of 16 games; in 2004, he missed one game (not critical, a wrist injury) and in 2002, he played in 5/16 games.

I don't know how this can be construed any differently, joeshmo.

 

[Billy Flynt]

All I know is that no signing ever improved my Madden Cardinals like Ray Lewis!

I did the same thing... oh yeah, I signed Edge James too...

could be prophetic...

 

[joeshmo]

On Lewis' "nagging injuries":

In 2005, he played in 6 of 16 games; in 2004, he missed one game (not critical, a wrist injury) and in 2002, he played in 5/16 games.

I don't know how this can be construed any differently, joeshmo.

Again more spin.

Now you are changing your original statement of which I was commenting on.

You stated, "who is coming off the last two years with more than just small nagging injuries". Again he didnt have nagging injuries the last "two" years. He had nagging injuries(more on that later) ONLY, last year.

Also none of his time missed was due to nagging injuries in the first place. In 2002 he seperated his shoulder, put on IR after 5 games. And Last year he tore is Hamstring. He even tried to play on that torn hamstring to help his team. But after going through all of the other procedures to fix it, he he finally had to take the most drastic one which was surgery, ending his season.

Nagging Injuries, not even close.

 

[spanky1]

Again more spin.

Now you are changing your original statement of which I was commenting on.

You stated, "who is coming off the last two years with more than just small nagging injuries". Again he didnt have nagging injuries the last "two" years. He had nagging injuries(more on that later) ONLY, last year.

Also none of his time missed was due to nagging injuries in the first place. In 2002 he seperated his shoulder, put on IR after 5 games. And Last year he tore is Hamstring. He even tried to play on that torn hamstring to help his team. But after going through all of the other procedures to fix it, he he finally had to take the most drastic one which was surgery, ending his season.

Nagging Injuries, not even close.

Not many on this board "plays" with stats like you do joeshmo.....so you can believe that Ray Lewis has only had "nagging injuries over the last years if you want.

But the HARD COLD FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT SINCE 2002, Lewis has NOT been able to play in 22 of 64 games......and that is 30% my friend. I don't care if his injuries were not career ending in nature, but these are the facts.......and this is during the so called peak years of 27-30.

If it were a player on the Cardinals, everyone would be yelling that he's another Tom Knight or Duane Starks.

 

[joeshmo]

Do you even know what a nagging injury is Spanky.

They are pulls and sprains. Which is what Starks and Tommy Knight had. Nagging injuries is a term for players who can play but are in to much "Pain" or what they think is to much pain, or hinder their performance when they do play. Or better known as Tommy Knight syndrome. None of that refers to Ray Lewis, none. You dont go on IR for nagging injuries.

Lewis two injuries are not nagging injuries. If they were nagging injuries then Boldins 2 knee surgeries are just nagging injuries as well.

Not many on this board "plays" with stats like you do joeshmo.....so you can believe that Ray Lewis has only had "nagging injuries over the last years if you want.

First I said he only had so called nagging injury last year, not years. Second my original response was according to your comment that he has had nagging injuries of 2 years, your perimeters not mine. He didnt have any injuries in 2004 hence me telling you your original arguement of injuries(or Injury) the last two years was wrong. Is that really to hard to understand.

Ray had to season ending injuries, one from making a huge hit seperating his shoulder, and the other driving a OL during a play. Those are freak injuries that anyone of perfect health can have. It does not mean they are injury prone or will hinder their performance later on.

As for me playing with stats. I do my research. If you dont like the way I use them, then prove me wrong on them, its as simple as that.

 

[spanky1]

Do you even know what a nagging injury is Spanky.

They are pulls and sprains. Which is what Starks and Tommy Knight had. Nagging injuries is a term for players who can play but are in to much "Pain" or what they think is to much pain, or hinder their performance when they do play. Or better known as Tommy Knight syndrome. None of that refers to Ray Lewis, none. You dont go on IR for nagging injuries.

Lewis two injuries are not nagging injuries. If they were nagging injuries then Boldins 2 knee surgeries are just nagging injuries as well.



First I said he only had so called nagging injury last year, not years. Second my original response was according to your comment that he has had nagging injuries of 2 years, your perimeters not mine. He didnt have any injuries in 2004 hence me telling you your original arguement of injuries(or Injury) the last two years was wrong. Is that really to hard to understand.

Ray had to season ending injuries, one from making a huge hit seperating his shoulder, and the other driving a OL during a play. Those are freak injuries that anyone of perfect health can have. It does not mean they are injury prone or will hinder their performance later on.

As for me playing with stats. I do my research. If you dont like the way I use them, then prove me wrong on them, its as simple as that.

joeshmo,

Alright......Lewis' injuries were not "nagging". I was trying to be gentle on him.

You are correct, his injuries were severe enough to be season ending, two of the last three years.......isn't that worse than "nagging"? Being put on IR for two of the last three years is a trend line that any coach would be concerned about if they were thinking about the signing of a player. I know I would be concerned, especially if I were contemplating signing him to a mega dollar contract (which is what it would take BTW).

Forget the sub plot that you and I are currently on. This thread's premise is about the wisdom of going after Lewis in the off season. Nothing more, nothing less. And furthermore, he isn't even a FA. If he hits the market, it will require something in return....something big in return. And I am against this.

Secondly, I find it convenient that you did not acknowledge that he has missed out on more than 30% of games during the last three years. This is a stat that I thought would hit home to you. I guess not. Freak injury or otherwise, this is a fact. Entering his 11th year, being 31 in May of '06 and having this undeniable injury record in recent years is a bellweather that spells trouble. A player like Lewis reaches his prime between 26/27 and 30. That he has been "out of play" for as much as he has been is not a good sign.

I have no problem with you and stats.....just the opposite...and I have often applauded you with your use of them to support your position on a post response.

Again joeshmo....let's return to the big picture here and quit splitting hairs over the term "nagging" and return to the meat of this thread......Ray Lewis was once the dominant LB in football and his reign lasted for six or so years. But he is in the twi-light of his career. To belly up to the bar with a mega contract is not in the best interests of the Cardinals. That is my opinion and I am sticking to it.

Go ahead...take another shot at the wisdom of my thinking if you wish, but as I said last night, I'm done with this thread. I'll look forward to talking to you on another.

Regards, Spanky1

 

[Snakester]

To me Ray Lewis has lost a little bit of what he use to be, which was the best middle linebacker in recent memory, but he is still very good. He has played ten years and I think he will be good for another three. I would much rather sign him than trade a second round pick for him, but either way I would love to see the Cardinals get him. He may not be as good as he use to be, but he probably is still the best middle linebacker in the NFL. At the very least top five.

Also as some others have stated, he would be a valuable team leader and would do a great deal to provide both leadership and team spirit to the defense. I would love to see him in Cardinal red, but I would be surprised if the Cards went out and got him.

 

[JD Robertson]

I would love to have Ray Lewis for 2-3 years. He would make the defense that much better. I think it was 2 years ago when Baltimore played the Rams in St. Louis on Sunday night and ESPN did a week long with Ray. The defense knew what the defensive game plan would be before the coaches gave it to them because Ray watched so much film w/the other players. He is a playmaker and would only make this team better.

Besides, could you imagine him leading the team out of the tunnel for the first time in the dome with that dance of his. How pumped up would the crowd be then.

JD

 

[1DS]

Check out this clip of Ray....They really have his little dance down, don't they?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFzdst7ZhOk

 

[Tashunca]

Our REAL need from the Ravens is free-agent JAMAL Lewis!

 

[CronosCard]

"..And in this corner.."

Az Finest and other pro-RayLewis people=Cardsmatch are
righton!!
Just like if we had the chance toget John Lynch, Junior Seau, Jerome Bettis etal.. we've moved towards that level where wise words and deeds from proven warriors mean something more than in the past, and the coaching staff can use these words and the examples set by these men as our teammates for the rest of the team to pattern itself towards..
Denny might see that it will do good or maybe he will feel it still won't make the difference. Either way, we have that ? answered.
I think DG would go through the thorough Medical tests and pony up to get a player like Ray ASAP
!!

 

[JeffGollin]

To me Ray Lewis has lost a little bit of what he use to be, which was the best middle linebacker in recent memory, but he is still very good.
Thanks for putting all of this in context.

I agree. Obviously, if he were to be on the block, the main issues would be: What's he want? What do we think he's worth? What are other teams willing to pay? And does it make sense for us to pay the tab?

I'm old school when it comes to MLB's - i.e. I give more weight to toughness and run-stuffing than I do to sideline-to-sideline range (not that it wouldn't be nice). As such, a guy like Lewis (who's tough and hits like a ton) who might have lost a step figures to still be able to play the position at a high level.

One thing that makes me a tad nervous though - Lewis had his best years as an ILB with additional help in a 3-4. Since he's been in a 4-3 (without Hartwell to help him), his productivity has fallen off a little.

Still - all things being equal - having Ray in the middle couldn't hurt.

 

[Snakester]

To me Ray Lewis has lost a little bit of what he use to be, which was the best middle linebacker in recent memory, but he is still very good.
Thanks for putting all of this in context.

I agree. Obviously, if he were to be on the block, the main issues would be: What's he want? What do we think he's worth? What are other teams willing to pay? And does it make sense for us to pay the tab?

I'm old school when it comes to MLB's - i.e. I give more weight to toughness and run-stuffing than I do to sideline-to-sideline range (not that it wouldn't be nice). As such, a guy like Lewis (who's tough and hits like a ton) who might have lost a step figures to still be able to play the position at a high level.

I agree as well. It would be great to have him, but the contract has to be reasonable. He wouldn't be cheap. A 5 million a year contract would be reasonable for the type of player that he is and what he brings to the table as a leader for the defense.

I am also old school when it comes to the middle linebacker position. I would rather have a guy that can stop a runner in his tracks than have a guy that is good in coverage with speed, but is not big and strong enough to take on a block and make the tackle.

 

[imaCafan]

From Sportsline.com:

The Baltimore Sun reports LB Ray Lewis supposedly wants out of Baltimore and desires "Peyton Manning" money with another team. Furthermore, the Ravens have quietly shopped him, but have been offered only a second-round pick for Lewis.
(Updated 02/13/2006).

Lewis isn't considered a premier Fantasy linebacker anymore, partly because he has played a full season once in the last four years. Anyone who drafts him early now in IDP leagues is doing so because of the hype of his name and not his actual production. Where he ends up will be an important factor in 2006 (who will his DTs be?, what kind of scheme will he play in?). Stay tuned.
(Updated 02/13/2006).