Reality Check

[40yearfan]

Jumpin in the middle here but it's pretty hard for the Cards to make that assessment when they didn't talk to Reese, or anyone else for that matter.

Do we know that for sure?

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Do we know that for sure?

No we don't. But there have been no reports that the Cards were even looking around at another GM candidate throughout the season and those type of things usually get out to the media one way or another. I mean everyone pretty much knew DG was gone even though there was no specific report from the Cards.

 

[40yearfan]

No we don't. But there have been no reports that the Cards were even looking around at another GM candidate throughout the season and those type of things usually get out to the media one way or another. I mean everyone pretty much knew DG was gone even though there was no specific report from the Cards.

Reese didn't resign until Jan. 5, 2007. Therefore he wasn't available when the Cards made the decision to extend RG's contract.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Reese didn't resign until Jan. 5, 2007. Therefore he wasn't available when the Cards made the decision to extend RG's contract.

I'm not saying they should've hired Reese. I hope they at least looked around at some other possibilities. I think we all thought they should hire a GM first before hiring a HC and they did that. We just don't know how much they looked at potential candidates outside the organization.

 

[Covert Rain]

Stout, you are asking for something you will not get. The Bidwills are not going to give a GM carte blanche with their money. Neither will 90% of the rest of the NFL owners. So what you are suggesting won't happen. In the absence of that happening, what else would you suggest.

That's not the problem. Owners always have a say to some degree. However, with most good franchises, the GM is allowed a pretty long leash in terms of making football decisions. The issue here is that RG is nothing more then a puppet. The Bidwells control everything and Rod just says "Yes sir". Rod Graves is not your typical GM. He is more like the Company Employee Relations Manager then a GM of a football franchise.

This guy is barely better then Matt Millan and that's not saying much.

 

[40yearfan]

That's not the problem. Owners always have a say to some degree. However, with most good franchises, the GM is allowed a pretty long leash in terms of making football decisions. The issue here is that RG is nothing more then a puppet. The Bidwells control everything and Rod just says "Yes sir". Rod Graves is not your typical GM. He is more like the Company Employee Relations Manager then a GM of a football franchise.

This guy is barely better then Matt Millan and that's not saying much.

Look, this is your assumption. You don't know this for sure. None of us know the extent of RG's powers, so speculation is our only recourse. In the interview with him and MB he talked a lot tougher than I have heard from him before. Maybe he's been given more authority and realizes that he needs to make decisions that he was deferring to DG on.

As I stated before, we won't know until after the draft. Then we will have something to judge him on.

 

[Sandan]

Wait. Why?

Because if you keep jerking the management team around you get no consistancy and no planning. Every 3 years you fire the GM and the planning starts again.

That's why GMs need longer than HCs

 

[40yearfan]

Because if you keep jerking the management team around you get no consistancy and no planning. Every 3 years you fire the GM and the planning starts again.

That's why GMs need longer than HCs

Good point nidan.

 

[Sandan]

The issue here is that RG is nothing more then a puppet. The Bidwells control everything and Rod just says "Yes sir". Rod Graves is not your typical GM. He is more like the Company Employee Relations Manager then a GM of a football franchise.

This guy is barely better then Matt Millan and that's not saying much.

YOU DO NOT KNOW THIS.

In fact it's pure speculation based on your idea of how the Cardinals FO is run these days

 

[kerouac9]

Because if you keep jerking the management team around you get no consistancy and no planning. Every 3 years you fire the GM and the planning starts again.

That's why GMs need longer than HCs

Again, what's the time frame that you--as nidan--require before you can start agreeing that Rod Graves' tenure if a failure? Three more 6-10 seasons? Would that be enough? Five more?

There doesn't seem to be a personnel plan in place right now, so what's the difference?

 

[kerouac9]

As I stated before, we won't know until after the draft. Then we will have something to judge him on.

Wait, why are 4 years of failed football teams not enough to judge Rod Graves on, but immediately after 1 draft suddenly we have enough to start drawing conclusions about his effectiveness?

 

[Pariah]

YOU DO NOT KNOW THIS.

In fact it's pure speculation based on your idea of how the Cardinals FO is run these days

Why did we not sign an OT, CB or OLB after we signed Edge last offseason?

The above question is an example of Graves' no-win situation: a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, IMO. If you think Graves is calling the personnel shots, then he's left gaping holes where it was obvious to everyone we needed help. If he's not, then Steeldog has a point--he's not in control and we need to get a personality in here that will demand it.

 

[Covert Rain]

Look, this is your assumption. You don't know this for sure. None of us know the extent of RG's powers, so speculation is our only recourse. In the interview with him and MB he talked a lot tougher than I have heard from him before. Maybe he's been given more authority and realizes that he needs to make decisions that he was deferring to DG on.

As I stated before, we won't know until after the draft. Then we will have something to judge him on.

Why would you be surprised RG is acting tough? He is trying to justify his existance to most of those outside the franchise and the fact that he got an extension. There are only two teams in the league that have lost this much that still have the same GM's in place. The Cards and Lions.

Your saying "Maybe he was given more power". That is pure assumption on your part as well. We don't need this draft to know if RG should keep his job. He shouldn't. The Cards record speaks for itself.

YOU DO NOT KNOW THIS.

In fact it's pure speculation based on your idea of how the Cardinals FO is run these days

Your right I don't know for sure. Having said that...you don't know that it is not true. Given all the interviews that have been done with ex-coaches, players and insiders to give a pretty good indication what it is like in the FO of this organization.

So it's not my idea. It's the idea of those that have interacted with the FO. I am basing my opinion on those that have commented on it. Forgive me if I put more stock in that then the opinions of some people on the board.

I want the Cards to win. I want this team to be good. However, I choose not to give this team the benefit of the doubt until they have earned it. Win some freaking games, spend some money on coaches, spend some money on assistants, get a real GM in here and for god's sake let football people run the franchise. And here is the kicker ---- it might be a good idea to do all of that at once versus doing one of those things every few years.

If the Cards did all that and still lost, then I would be the first to admit that the FO did every thing they could to get it done.

 

[football karma]

If he's not, then Steeldog has a point--he's not in control and we need to get a personality in here that will demand it.

First -- some context. The number of GM's who get to do everything that they want is pretty low -- Wash, Dallas, maybe a couple others. Virtually all GMs are under some sort of constaint by ownership. Its really a question of degree.

The rub is this. With the Bidwills -- trust and the leeway to do things is earned not by reputation or past accomplishments necessarily, but by direct personal experience. Sad but true.

I dont know if Graves has top 10 type personnel evaluation talent, but I do know that he has the trust that Bill Sr. Even his critics have to give him credit for getting Bill Sr to move off some long and deeply held convictions: A contract is a contract (i.e. no renegotiation) as well as moving into this decade on structuring contracts, etc.

From a pragmatic viewpoint, Graves will have more lattitude over the next three years than a newly hired (for example) Floyd Reese would. Crazy but true.

 

[40yearfan]

First -- some context. The number of GM's who get to do everything that they want is pretty low -- Wash, Dallas, maybe a couple others. Virtually all GMs are under some sort of constaint by ownership. Its really a question of degree.

The rub is this. With the Bidwills -- trust and the leeway to do things is earned not by reputation or past accomplishments necessarily, but by direct personal experience. Sad but true.

I dont know if Graves has top 10 type personnel evaluation talent, but I do know that he has the trust that Bill Sr. Even his critics have to give him credit for getting Bill Sr to move off some long and deeply held convictions: A contract is a contract (i.e. no renegotiation) as well as moving into this decade on structuring contracts, etc.

From a pragmatic viewpoint, Graves will have more lattitude over the next three years than a newly hired (for example) Floyd Reese would. Crazy but true.

And the exact reason why I was in favor of keeping RG. I'm tired of the Cards starting over every 3 years. This way we have continuity and the best chance to field a winning team immediately.

 

[40yearfan]

Wait, why are 4 years of failed football teams not enough to judge Rod Graves on, but immediately after 1 draft suddenly we have enough to start drawing conclusions about his effectiveness?

So now we're back to the won/lost record is the only thing to judge a GM on? What about the talent level of this team? Has it gotten better in the past 3 years or not? Amazing how you want to use the won/lost record for Graves, but not for Reese. Not being very consistant.

My point is that the talent level has increased and it's been through the efforts of RG. You won't give him credit for that and instead think that DG was responsible for it. That's why I'm saying we will know after the draft. If our draft is comparable to the past 3 years, then we will know that RG was the man. If not, it was due to DG. Pretty simple.

 

[40yearfan]

Why would you be surprised RG is acting tough? He is trying to justify his existance to most of those outside the franchise and the fact that he got an extension. There are only two teams in the league that have lost this much that still have the same GM's in place. The Cards and Lions.

Your saying "Maybe he was given more power". That is pure assumption on your part as well. We don't need this draft to know if RG should keep his job. He shouldn't. The Cards record speaks for itself..

So we both base our opinions on assumptions.

Here's the situation. RG is here and here to stay. Asking to get someone else is fruitless as it isn't going to happen. So instead of crying about spilt milk and living in the past, why not accept the inevitable. From your standpoint, the Cards have already screwed the pooch and there is no way to recover. If that's the case, we might as well fold up the shop and go home. Maybe you can live with that scenario, but I sure refuse to do so.

I think the Cards did a good thing by keeping RG. We can sit here and argue about it all you like, but if you're a true Cards fan, you'd better hope I'm right. The alternative ain't very pretty.

 

[Stout]

Stout, you are asking for something you will not get. The Bidwills are not going to give a GM carte blanche with their money. Neither will 90% of the rest of the NFL owners. So what you are suggesting won't happen. In the absence of that happening, what else would you suggest.

Sadly, the first part is right on. Also sadly, your last part is dead wrong. Most owners, even ones that stick their nose in, allow the GM to do his job and open up the coffers. The only other team I can remember having such a problem as we have is the Bungles, but then Brown took a step back, and the FO began to actually operate as a FO. Again, we're doing lemonade-stand business while the rest of the NFL is in the fast lane.

 

[Sandan]

Again, what's the time frame that you--as nidan--require before you can start agreeing that Rod Graves' tenure if a failure? Three more 6-10 seasons? Would that be enough? Five more?

Some what of a loaded statement/question don't you think. If you really expected an answer you should take the venom from your post.

In the same vein as your post ... I would expect to go at least 10 more years of losing before we made a change. Geeze, what a stupid way to phrase a question,

If you read back on this thread you will see I agreed with Joe earlier but your sarcasm meter prevents you acknowledging that.

There doesn't seem to be a personnel plan in place right now, so what's the difference?

Yet another insightful comment. You have no clue if they have a plan or if they learn from the DG process.

 

[Cardiac]

As is the nature of a message board and it's poster's most of what is discussed is conjecture and theories. I think everyone has stated that their posts are opinion and "reading between the lines". Even the facts don't explain totally the root cause of problems. So here is my theory that has as much fact and substance as anyone else's (if not more since it is MHO).

Every poor draft pick since RG has been with the team was done inspite of his input & or opinion. This would be the Bill Bidwill factor.

Every good draft pick was the fine work of RG and the scouts. RG knew when to pick his battles and because he has earned the loyalty of BB got his way.

Supporting facts to my theory:

Remember George Boone and the horrible drafts under his watch. We all know that BB hand picked the Missou QB Steve Pischkwiz sp?, that single draft pick tells you that BB is clueless.

Review DG's drafts with the Vikings, he had far more misses then hits, by a large margin. All of a sudden DG get's good at draft evaluation? What DG did was help with a strategy of setting up a draft board, the scouts and RG set those boards.

If you want to argue that DG didn't have the final say so with the Vikings picks but did with the Cards then listen or read interviews from his time with both teams. DG takes the same credit for those drafts as he does with the Cards. Bottom line is DG enjoys being the Voice of the team he coaches and speaks as if he is the man (EGO thing that most agree is one of DG's flaws).

For those that say RG is a puppet and only does what the B's want doesn't give RG any credit for:
Waiver for draftee's to practive at mini camp's.
Extending players contracts before they expire.
Adding Bell's and whistle's to contracts.
Getting far more aggressive in FA.
Updated amenities for the players.

The last fact that seems to allude many RG detractors is the quality of HC candidates that are lined up for the job. If RG was such a horrible GM then we wouldn't have so many top notch choices. No one has told us aka Raiders thanks but no thanks on interviewing for the job. If anyone thinks that information and opinions aren't shared amongst peers and collegues than .... well I won't get insulting. Just some it up to say if RG and the Cards were perceived as horrible then some of these candidates wouldn't bother interviewing with the team.

I will finish by saying that this is MHO and has as much fact and insight (if not more) than anyone else's opinion. I will say I was being a bit extreme and sarcastic with some of what I said but I think most will get the point.

I'm just getting tired of some of the one dimensional thinking that leads to simplistic theories and conclussions.

 

[40yearfan]

As is the nature of a message board and it's poster's most of what is discussed is conjecture and theories. I think everyone has stated that their posts are opinion and "reading between the lines". Even the facts don't explain totally the root cause of problems. So here is my theory that has as much fact and substance as anyone else's (if not more since it is MHO).

Every poor draft pick since RG has been with the team was done inspite of his input & or opinion. This would be the Bill Bidwill factor.

Every good draft pick was the fine work of RG and the scouts. RG knew when to pick his battles and because he has earned the loyalty of BB got his way.

Supporting facts to my theory:

Remember George Boone and the horrible drafts under his watch. We all know that BB hand picked the Missou QB Steve Pischkwiz sp?, that single draft pick tells you that BB is clueless.

Review DG's drafts with the Vikings, he had far more misses then hits, by a large margin. All of a sudden DG get's good at draft evaluation? What DG did was help with a strategy of setting up a draft board, the scouts and RG set those boards.

If you want to argue that DG didn't have the final say so with the Vikings picks but did with the Cards then listen or read interviews from his time with both teams. DG takes the same credit for those drafts as he does with the Cards. Bottom line is DG enjoys being the Voice of the team he coaches and speaks as if he is the man (EGO thing that most agree is one of DG's flaws).

For those that say RG is a puppet and only does what the B's want doesn't give RG any credit for:
Waiver for draftee's to practive at mini camp's.
Extending players contracts before they expire.
Adding Bell's and whistle's to contracts.
Getting far more aggressive in FA.
Updated amenities for the players.

The last fact that seems to allude many RG detractors is the quality of HC candidates that are lined up for the job. If RG was such a horrible GM then we wouldn't have so many top notch choices. No one has told us aka Raiders thanks but no thanks on interviewing for the job. If anyone thinks that information and opinions aren't shared amongst peers and collegues than .... well I won't get insulting. Just some it up to say if RG and the Cards were perceived as horrible then some of these candidates wouldn't bother interviewing with the team.

I will finish by saying that this is MHO and has as much fact and insight (if not more) than anyone else's opinion. I will say I was being a bit extreme and sarcastic with some of what I said but I think most will get the point.

I'm just getting tired of some of the one dimensional thinking that leads to simplistic theories and conclussions.

:notworthy