Reality Check

kerouac9

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K9, did you not say that wins and losses were the only thing that matters? You do know that in the NFL as in most places, it's what have you done for me lately, not what did you do before. How do you know he hasn't lost his touch? Maybe he's getting too old. If the salary cap bit him was he spending with no thought for the future? That's not very smart.

Wouldn't it be fair to give Graves the same amount of time Reese has had?

Reese did better in the present than Graves in W's and L's, including this season in a more difficult conference. So he beats Graves in that metric.

Also, Reese has a successful history in the past, including building a perennial playoff team and a Super Bowl contender. So he beats Graves in that metric.

As for the salary cap problems, it was something that they didn't blunder into, but in fact was planned. They overspent for a few seasons in order to keep the core of the team together in the hopes of staying in contention and maybe with a Super Bowl, knowing that they'd have to pay for it with a serious roster purge later on. Ozzie Newsome did the same thing with the Ravens, and no one thought he was was a general manager.

So Reese took a chance on greatness and didn't settle for mediocrity and a healthy cap. It seems to beat Rod Graves in that metric, as well.

That's Reese 3, Graves 0, any way you cut it. At the very least, Reese was as good a GM as Graves has been so far, which means that the Cards wouldn't have lost anything by having a conversation with the guy.

But the Bidwills didn't even try.
 

BACH

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Um... okay, 40. He has done better than Graves during Graves' tenure, which has been 4 years. He also built a team that was a perennial playoff contender before the salary cap bit him, and then had a team that was playoff competitive into December despite playing in a more difficult conference. His team beat the Colts' starters, which was something that Rod Graves' team was unable to do against their backups.

Floyd Reese build a Super Bowl team. Rod Graves has built a team that has yet to notch 7 wins in a season. Why don't you make a poll and we'll see whom the board would prefer?

I would actually vote for Graves in that poll. Remember, Reese is the GM that on several occasions drafted a player that his HC (who is one of the best in the NFL) DID NOT want!
 

Duckjake

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I would actually vote for Graves in that poll. Remember, Reese is the GM that on several occasions drafted a player that his HC (who is one of the best in the NFL) DID NOT want!

Isn't that what a good GM does? Overule the coach and bring in guys like PacMan Jones and Vince Young who look like mistakes on paper but are seat filling, suite selling, winners on the field.

The guy was such a good GM he helped the Cardinals get Matt Leinart. How can you complain about that? :D
 

Cbus cardsfan

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Isn't that what a good GM does? Overule the coach and bring in guys like PacMan Jones and Vince Young who look like mistakes on paper but are seat filling, suite selling, winners on the field.

The guy was such a good GM he helped the Cardinals get Matt Leinart. How can you complain about that? :D

That's what i was thinking. I think one of Graves faults is that he cedes to the coach too often. Maybe that will change now that he has come out and let everyone know that he's calling the shots. I can see getting the coaches input and working together but, at least it seemed that way, he let Mac and Green get whoever they wanted even if he disagreed with it. With Mac, it was a disaster. With Green, it was pretty good because of the talent brought in.
 

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As long as we're actually aggressive in FA and make full use of our cap, and we draft BPA, I'm all for it.

(as long as the FAs and the BPAs are the ones I think are the best ;) )
 

conraddobler

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I don't want to hear from this point forward we aren't x number of players away.

I want a full court press to win and win NOW! I will judge everyone on the team by how well they achieve that NOW!
 
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Sandan

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As long as we're actually aggressive in FA and make full use of our cap, and we draft BPA,

  • "aggressive in FA" - Edge - check
  • "full use of our cap" - Down to change left - check
  • "draft BPA" - Matt - check
So I'm assuming you are a happy camper a regards operations last year ?
 

Stout

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  • "aggressive in FA" - Edge - check
  • "full use of our cap" - Down to change left - check
  • "draft BPA" - Matt - check
So I'm assuming you are a happy camper a regards operations last year ?

Um, nice misconceptions, twisting of words, and downright untruths, bro. Although you did hit #3 right on the nose.

1-Aggressive in FA: Good start, then totally climbed inside of a shell, ignored all the rest of the FA crop, and hoarded money going into the season.

2-Full use of our cap: Nice distortion, Nidan. In no way did we even come close to the full use of our cap. First, we hoarded money heading into the season, which means we ignored FA after Edge. We also failed to use bells and whistles in our contract negotiations, which minimized what we did spend in FA even more. We flopped majorly here.

3-Exactamundo. That was brilliant. The rest of our drafting went well too.

Bottom line is, we majorly need to change the way we do business, and I don't think Graves is willing to do that. If we go into the season 8-10 million under the salary cap, I'll go ballistic again, and quite rightly so. Common thought has been we've done that because we don't have the cash flow. Now we have the stadium and the cash flow and no more frickin' excuses. Be aggressive in FA, utilize our cap space, offer creative contracts, and get it done!!!
 
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Sandan

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Did we or did we not use all of our salary cap this yes [bar some loose change]

You might not like the way we used it but it's a fact we did. You would prefer to use most of it at once. Maybe you are correct maybe not, time will tell.

For sure I do like that we seem not to lose players due to cap problems anymore.
 
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Sandan

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1-Aggressive in FA: Good start, then totally climbed inside of a shell, ignored all the rest of the FA crop, and hoarded money going into the season.

Again your opinion.

Some have said an alternative explanation was that most of the remaining FAs were overprices, ovewr the hill players looking to toretire on somebodies dime.

Not to mention those who didn'y fit our needs or didn't want to come here
 

Stout

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Did we or did we not use all of our salary cap this yes [bar some loose change]

You might not like the way we used it but it's a fact we did. You would prefer to use most of it at once. Maybe you are correct maybe not, time will tell.

For sure I do like that we seem not to lose players due to cap problems anymore.

Yes, but my original statement was to the point that we should get the maximum out of our cap, not simply use vanilla contracts and then wait until the season starts to spend the bulk of our cap. You then said that I should like what we did last season. What I said and what we did are polar opposites.

This ties into the FA question. Players that you might pretend to believe were too old or too pricey went elsewhere and had significant impact. We stood pat, entered the season with money that could have and should have been used to help this roster, and you see the results.

Do you honestly mean to tell me you prefer saving upwards of 8 million dollars for the beginning of the season? If so, then I finally found another root reason why you like Graves so much. I mean, honestly? It's a sign of a sad FO that cannot and will not understand that you have to be willing to lay that money out there.
 

40yearfan

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Reese did better in the present than Graves in W's and L's, including this season in a more difficult conference. So he beats Graves in that metric.

Also, Reese has a successful history in the past, including building a perennial playoff team and a Super Bowl contender. So he beats Graves in that metric.

As for the salary cap problems, it was something that they didn't blunder into, but in fact was planned. They overspent for a few seasons in order to keep the core of the team together in the hopes of staying in contention and maybe with a Super Bowl, knowing that they'd have to pay for it with a serious roster purge later on. Ozzie Newsome did the same thing with the Ravens, and no one thought he was was a general manager.

So Reese took a chance on greatness and didn't settle for mediocrity and a healthy cap. It seems to beat Rod Graves in that metric, as well.

That's Reese 3, Graves 0, any way you cut it. At the very least, Reese was as good a GM as Graves has been so far, which means that the Cards wouldn't have lost anything by having a conversation with the guy.

But the Bidwills didn't even try.

Sorry K9, but you are hanging you hat on shadows. The only way he trumps Graves is what he did the first 10 years with the Titans. He inherited some pretty good players when he started in 1993 with Houston Oilers (before they became the Tennessee Titans) so the first few years he was there, he didn't have to do a whole lot with the team personnel. Graves walked into a snake pit and didn't have that luxury so he had to learn on the fly.

I'm not saying Reese wasn't a good GM, but he walked into a good situation, had time to learn his job and some good HC's to work with. The fact that his team has fallen off in the past 3 years is a warning signal to me and it must have bothered the Titans also as they asked him to leave. Just because the grass is greener on the other side of the fence doesn't mean it's better.
 

Stout

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Sorry K9, but you are hanging you hat on shadows. The only way he trumps Graves is what he did the first 10 years with the Titans. He inherited some pretty good players when he started in 1993 with Houston Oilers (before they became the Tennessee Titans) so the first few years he was there, he didn't have to do a whole lot with the team personnel. Graves walked into a snake pit and didn't have that luxury so he had to learn on the fly.

I'm not saying Reese wasn't a good GM, but he walked into a good situation, had time to learn his job and some good HC's to work with. The fact that his team has fallen off in the past 3 years is a warning signal to me and it must have bothered the Titans also as they asked him to leave. Just because the grass is greener on the other side of the fence doesn't mean it's better.

The fact that we're even DEBATING if Reese is a better GM than Graves or not is simply baffling.
 

Stout

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Nidan, just to clarify, I'm not trying to attack you personally or anything. I just don't understand why you like how we're doing business. I agree we've made strides. The rookie contracts have the requisite bells and whistles, and we shelled out a big contract to Edge. I just feel to be satisfied with our modicum of progress and not push for full football competency from our front office would be admitting mediocrity. I don't want that, and I don't think you want that.

Like I said, not trying to come after you, bro.
 

Covert Rain

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So you didn't read Joeshmo's post? I have no problem with you picking on the ownership, but you could at least get your facts right and learn how to spell the name right.

Oh, OK. lol. Thanks for checking my spelling...dang forum spellcheck is on the fritz. Come and talk to me again when this team has one of the lowest paid coaching staff's in the NFL after this hire.

Plus so the numbers say the Cards are in the middle of the pack in terms of player spending. First off that has nothing to do with Rod Graves. It doesn't speak to Rod Graves ability to be a GM. It doesn't speak to the fact that Rod is a yes man that only has a job because the Bidwells can control him. Everybody knows Bidwill still makes the decisions. Second, average team spending doesn't tell the story as much as how much unused cap space is left each year with the Cards.

Is the team the cheapest in the land. No. However, even if your in the middle of the pack in spending, isn't their still a problem? Almost half of the league is still spending more money then you and using more cap space. Shouldn't a team with 1 winning season in forever be doing everything they can to give the fans more then that? Shouldn't a team who has had 1 winning season and now a new stadium be doing everything possible from using available cap space to getting a good coaching staff in here?

This team has passed on hiring a real GM. Why? They don't want to spend the big bucks on such a hire and give up power. This team finally went out and spent some money on a name coach which I give them credit for in Green. However, the team is shell shocked now about spending money on a coach. So what will happen this year? The team will tighten the purse strings. This team will spend between 1.5 and 2 million for a coach. The team will again have some of the lowest paid assistants. Those dollars don't show up on team payroll dollars.

You can have all the best ingredients in the world. However, unless you have a good chef to make the meal, you might as well eat at Taco Bell. This team needs a real GM who will have control over the franchise and make football decisions. The Bidwells need to take a back seat and let football people run the franchise. We all know that's going to happen.
 
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40yearfan

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Oh, OK. lol. Thanks for checking my spelling...dang forum spellcheck is on the fritz. Come and talk to me again when this team has one of the lowest paid coaching staff's in the NFL after this hire.

Plus so the numbers say the Cards are in the middle of the pack in terms of player spending. First off that has nothing to do with Rod Graves. It doesn't speak to Rod Graves ability to be a GM. It doesn't speak to the fact that Rod is a yes man that only has a job because the Bidwells can control him. Everybody knows Bidwill still makes the decisions. Second, average team spending doesn't tell the story as much as how much unused cap space is left each year with the Cards.

What are you suggesting here? That the Bidwills get a GM and not get involved in any decisions? If you had a four hunderd million dollar asset, would you just give it to somebody to run and not keep an eagle eye on it? Regardless of who has the GM job, the Bidwills will be watching over them just like every other NFL owner does. You don't get those kind of bucks by being a bad businessman. Also, the Cards spend within 1% of the cap every year. The argument some on this board have is when they spend that money, not that they aren't spending it.

Is the team the cheapest in the land. No. However, even if your in the middle of the pack in spending, isn't their still a problem? Almost half of the league is still spending more money then you and using more cap space. Shouldn't a team with 1 winning season in forever be doing everything they can to give the fans more then that? Shouldn't a team who has had 1 winning season and now a new stadium be doing everything possible from using available cap space to getting a good coaching staff in here?

Like I'm telling you, you still have your facts screwed up. The Cards are spending to the cap every year. If you average spending among all NFL teams, the Cards are in the upper half. It's not what's being spent, it's how it's being spent.

This team has passed on hiring a real GM. Why? They don't want to spend the big bucks on such a hire and give up power. This team finally went out and spent some money on a name coach which I give them credit for in Green. However, the team is shell shocked now about spending money on a coach. So what will happen this year? The team will tighten the purse strings. This team will spend between 1.5 and 2 million for a coach. The team will again have some of the lowest paid assistants. Those dollars don't show up on team payroll dollars.

I disagree with you. You are living in the past if you think the Cards are unwilling to spend money. MB doesn't feel they need to change GM's and I along with some others on this board agree with him. Your claim that the team will tighten the purse strings is pure speculation on your part. They have a much better revenue stream now than they have ever had, so the situation is completely different. They have the money to spend (something they didn't use to have) and they know the revenue will dry up if they don't furnish a winning product. They will be doing everything they can to see that they win.

As for lowest paid assistants, we have no way of knowing that. Joeshmo says he has a friend who knows. Skkorp is personal friends with Graves and he says that isn't true. Again this is just pure speculation on your part.


You can have all the best ingredients in the world. However, unless you have a good chef to make the meal, you might as well eat at Taco Bell. This team needs a real GM who will have control over the franchise and make football decisions. The Bidwells need to take a back seat and let football people run the franchise. We all know that's going to happen.

As I stated before, a good businessman is not going to just hand an asset of this magnitude over to someone. You wouldn't either if this team was yours.
 

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I must admit, I think we are taking too long and interviewing too many people. Graves and/or Mike B should have had a short list of 3 or 4 and had a decision made by now.

I'm getting nervous.
 

ajcardfan

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I must admit, I think we are taking too long and interviewing too many people. Graves and/or Mike B should have had a short list of 3 or 4 and had a decision made by now.

I'm getting nervous.

Yes, Whisenhunt was a complete waste of time and I don't understand why Caldwell or Grimm are being interviewed either. We could have openings in New York and Dallas by Tuesday and that will change the market completely.
 

joeshmo

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I must admit, I think we are taking too long and interviewing too many people. Graves and/or Mike B should have had a short list of 3 or 4 and had a decision made by now.

I'm getting nervous.

I am a little worried as well.

It tells me one of these things -

1. They "might" not even know what they want themselves. Hence interviewing everyone possible. Meaning they didnt really have a plan going into this. Most organizations have a short list of people when they try and fill their top spots becuase they already did their homework on them. I am not sure if we did that.

2. They already have a short list maybe even a #1 guy but want to make it look to the public they are doing their due diligence. Which could backfire with more and more jobs opening up and maybe even more after the games this coming sunday.

In either case it makes me more then a little nervous.
 

PJ1

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I must admit, I think we are taking too long and interviewing too many people. Graves and/or Mike B should have had a short list of 3 or 4 and had a decision made by now.

I'm getting nervous.

They may have decided on Rivera and will have to wait till the Bear's are done to complete the deal. In the meantime you still interview in case the Rivera thing doesn't work out.
 

40yearfan

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Um, because the success the Titans had during Reese's tenure is by far superior to anything we've done here. Yeah, they ended up in cap hell, but they had a SB run before that. How many of those have we had?

It took him 8 years to get to the Super Bowl. Graves has only had 4 and he started with a much worse crew than Reese had.
 

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They "might" not even know what they want themselves. Hence interviewing everyone possible. Meaning they didnt really have a plan going into this. Most organizations have a short list of people when they try and fill their top spots becuase they already did their homework on them. I am not sure if we did that.

I noticed that they've only interviewed the top candidates that were brought up here on ASFN. Not one surprise.

Maybe their homework consisted of having an assistant to Graves read the threads here.
 

kerouac9

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I noticed that they've only interviewed the top candidates that were brought up here on ASFN. Not one surprise.

Maybe their homework consisted of having an assistant to Graves read the threads here.

Jim Bates wasn't a surprise? The QB coach for Indy wasn't a surprise? Mike Sherman wasn't a surprise?

I mean, I don't think that any of those guys are going to get the job, but no one was bringing up their names here.


40, even after the Titans' salary cap purge following the 2003 season, Floyd Reese built teams that went 5-11, 4-12, and 8-8. The combined record would be 17-31. If I'm not mistaken, during the last three years, when the Cards have had remarkable cap health under Rod Graves, the team's gone 6-10, 5-11, and 5-11. The overall records are about the same, but isn't it a little remarkable that the Titans are actually getting better?
 

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