Reality Check

[LVCARDFREAK]

Three things that impress me most about Rod Graves:

1. He has class. so did McGinnis

2. He has an exemplary work ethic. So Did McGinnis

3. He has made significant progress in the way in which the Cardinals negotiate and finalize contracts. I agree here, and think it is great, except that he should be in charge of contracts, not personel. Completly different ball game so to speak.
I am glad he's been re-signed. I believe he deserves it.

So many of you won't let the trade down draft go...in retrospect it was indeed a mistake...BUT...look at it this way...if Graves drafted Boldin and Pace in the first round and Bryant Johnson on the second...would you be that upset? Boldin is headed to his second Pro Bowl...and he was taken in the 2nd round of that same draft...not only that, Graves has signed Boldin to a long term extension...

I also admire the way Graves and Michael Bidwill are being super aggressive in finding their next head coach...to the point of Graves flying all over the place to interview candidates...that speaks to this man's commitment and the aforementioned work ethic.

Is this new? I mean, why is this special? Most teams do this. Blank and McKay are flying around right now-in Pit-looking for candidiates. Just shows how low are bar is set when we do things other organizations always do

Skkorp is right...Graves deserves a great deal more respect than what he has been getting on this board and from the media.

Ok, as a man? or as a GM/VP player personel? I am sure he is a great man according to most on this baord who have crossed paths with him, but as a GM he leaves a lot ot be desired..

I am sure Graves is a fine man, but you seem to be equating that with proffessional success and it doesnt translate to me. Other than the contracts, work ethic and class, are parts of the job anyone should have. Graves gets no extra marks for that form me

 

[Mitch]

I am sure Graves is a fine man, but you seem to be equating that with proffessional success and it doesnt translate to me. Other than the contracts, work ethic and class, are parts of the job anyone should have. Graves gets no extra marks for that form me

You claim that Mac had a great work ethic? That's non-sense. Mac and his staff looked like the never studied game film. They were the worst prepared staff ever.

 

[conraddobler]

Yes, Conrad, Graves did have a big hand in Green's hiring...but then was quickly forced into a position of having to support Green as Green started his wave of rash personnel decisions...and Graves has had to try to support Green while Green consistently made conspicuous mistakes in game preparation and management. One thing that was very much implied in yesterday's press conference was that Graves tried to reason with Green about certain differences in opinion. Just how flexible do you think Green was in those disputes?

You notice that in the press conference (as is usually customary) neither Graves nor Bidwill thanked Dennis Green for his efforts...that says a lot...

My guess is that neither Graves nor MB was enamored with Green's lax work ethic (which is why they now want a detail guy with a plan), hands-off approach, or his obstinancy.

It looked to me all along that Green treated this job the same way Buddy Ryan did: as a sinecure.

Yesterday when ESPN was reporting that it was "a sad day for Dennis Green"...didn't you gag? Dennis Green is not sad at all...in fact he's licking his chops at the prospect of sitting at home collecting $2.5M to fish with next year and many years to come. He already told the media something like..."I don't get emotional, I'm a grown man." WTF! There was never any sadness from Dennis Green and as far as nine weeks ago he was already sounding like a lame duck who acted like he could care less about keeping the job.

As for class...maybe it's just me...but you win with character people...and class is an important part of character, especially when it's manifested in the spokespeople of the organization...

For example, did you see Mike Shanahan's press conference today about Darrent Williams? Shanahan's class was remarkable...he fought back tears the entire time and put everything in classy perspective...and the love in his heart for Darrent Williams was so tangible it was incredible...those are the kind of people I want running my organization...people who have heart and genuinely care...and have the class to lay it on the line...

Mike Shanahan's got class?

That would be newsworthy, do me a favor and visit Dan Reeves house, a man who does have class, mention Shannys name and wait for the fist in the face.

He stole Dan's job from him pretty much that's what Dan thinks and it's pretty well true.

Now Graves is classy but was he lying when he said we weren't one or two players away at the beggining of the year, or when he says we're close very close now.

Thanking Green for his efforts would be the classy thing to do, deserving or not.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Too bad Rod Graves isn't trying to date my sister then all his class and hard work would actually mean something to me.

 

[ajcardfan]

Yes, Conrad, Graves did have a big hand in Green's hiring...but then was quickly forced into a position of having to support Green as Green started his wave of rash personnel decisions...and Graves has had to try to support Green while Green consistently made conspicuous mistakes in game preparation and management.

By who or what? Why?

Yesterday, Mike tried to give Graves all the credit for assembling the roster we have now. Graves, to his credit, quickly deflected that and gave some props to Green.

So, was Graves the architect in assembling this talent? Or, a helpless toady who couldn't stand up to big ol' mean Dennis for three seasons?

That just doesn't jive with me.


Also, for all of your swipes at Green, given his past, are you not surprised by the high road he has consistently taken with the Bidwills and Graves? For a guy who's rep is blaming everybody but himself, his actual words and actions towards management haven't born that out.

 

[joeshmo]

Yes, Conrad, Graves did have a big hand in Green's hiring...but then was quickly forced into a position of having to support Green as Green started his wave of rash personnel decisions...and Graves has had to try to support Green while Green consistently made conspicuous mistakes in game preparation and management. One thing that was very much implied in yesterday's press conference was that Graves tried to reason with Green about certain differences in opinion. Just how flexible do you think Green was in those disputes?

You notice that in the press conference (as is usually customary) neither Graves nor Bidwill thanked Dennis Green for his efforts...that says a lot...

Then Why didnt Graves as the GM step up to Green the Coach. What ever Green decided Graves either didnt speak up, agreed with Green, or just plain old let Green walk all over him.

As a GM who is over the Head coach, Which is worse?

I think maybe the guy has to much class. Meaning he doesnt want to cause any conflict or step on anyones toes. Does he let people step all over him by not voicing his opinion harder and louder or by not using his power as a GM has over a coach. There is such a thing as being to nice of a guy, especially at when you are at or near the top.

As for not thanking Green that just isnt true they did thank him for helping raise the talent level of the team. they did in radio interviews and Graves even deflected some of the props by by Mike at the rpesser about the finding of talent and gave just as much credit to Green as well.

 

[BigRedArk]

Three things that impress me most about Rod Graves:

So many of you won't let the trade down draft go...in retrospect it was indeed a mistake...BUT...look at it this way...if Graves drafted Boldin and Pace in the first round and Bryant Johnson on the second...would you be that upset? Boldin is headed to his second Pro Bowl...and he was taken in the 2nd round of that same draft...not only that, Graves has signed Boldin to a long term extension...

I don't remember all of the details on that draft trade Mitch but as I recall it was really a boneheaded move. First he passes up Terrel Suggs (maybe the reasons were legit maybe not).

Then IIRC he was so eager to trade out of the #7 spot he didn't get any extra picks for it and in fact traded places with the other team(forgot who it was now) I believe in the 2nd round. Our pick in the 2nd round was considerably higher than the other teams was I believe. I am fuzzy on the details now but it went down something like that. Anyway that was not a good omen for him being in charge of football decisions! He seemed to forget that the other team was eager to trade up as well and that he should require them to pay the Cards for wanting to swap places. Incredibly he didn't.

 

[Mitch]

Then Why didnt Graves as the GM step up to Green the Coach. What ever Green decided Graves either didnt speak up, agreed with Green, or just plain old let Green walk all over him.

As a GM who is over the Head coach, Which is worse?

I think maybe the guy has to much class. Meaning he doesnt want to cause any conflict or step on anyones toes. Does he let people step all over him by not voicing his opinion harder and louder or by not using his power as a GM has over a coach. There is such a thing as being to nice of a guy, especially at when you are at or near the top.

As for not thanking Green that just isnt true they did thank him for helping raise the talent level of the team. they did in radio interviews and Graves even deflected some of the props by by Mike at the rpesser about the finding of talent and gave just as much credit to Green as well.

Joe...now you are calling Graves the GM...he WASN'T the GM...he was VP of Football Operations (and still is apparently...not the GM)...Dennis Green was given the autonomy to call the shots (isn't that obvious?)...which forced Graves and others to have to support Green even in the midst of his worst mistakes.

The Bidwills and Graves put their faith in Green...the bottom line is Green just wanted to delegate and stand back while others did the work...he scammed this organization out of a cool $10M...which is why they COULDN'T thank him for his efforts, because his efforts were so minimal, by NFL head coaching standards, it was a joke. Heck, when all hell was breaking loose Green couldn't even call the plays...why??? Green wasn't close enough to the offense to even know how to call the plays.

AJ: Green isn't biting the hand that fed him this time...because this is his last gig and he wants to take the money and run.

It's amazing to me that you all just got ripped off by a HC who had the work ethic of a sloth and no emotion at all about losing his job...and you still want to defend him or ridicule me for "taking swipes."

Unreal.

 

[football karma]

I don't remember all of the details on that draft trade Mitch but as I recall it was really a boneheaded move. First he passes up Terrel Suggs (maybe the reasons were legit maybe not).

Then IIRC he was so eager to trade out of the #7 spot he didn't get any extra picks for it and in fact traded places with the other team(forgot who it was now) I believe in the 2nd round. Our pick in the 2nd round was considerably higher than the other teams was I believe. I am fuzzy on the details now but it went down something like that. Anyway that was not a good omen for him being in charge of football decisions! He seemed to forget that the other team was eager to trade up as well and that he should require them to pay the Cards for wanting to swap places. Incredibly he didn't.

um -- he got two first round picks for #7 overall

no doubt they botched the picks --

but a decent recovery with Boldin, Gerald Hayes and Reggie Wells during the rest of that draft

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Joe...now you are calling Graves the GM...he WASN'T the GM...he was VP of Football Operations (and still is apparently...not the GM)...Dennis Green was given the autonomy to call the shots (isn't that obvious?)...which forced Graves and others to have to support Green even in the midst of his worst mistakes.

The Bidwills and Graves put their faith in Green...the bottom line is Green just wanted to delegate and stand back while others did the work...he scammed this organization out of a cool $10M...which is why they COULDN'T thank him for his efforts, because his efforts were so minimal, by NFL head coaching standards, it was a joke. Heck, when all hell was breaking loose Green couldn't even call the plays...why??? Green wasn't close enough to the offense to even know how to call the plays.

AJ: Green isn't biting the hand that fed him this time...because this is his last gig and he wants to take the money and run.

It's amazing to me that you all just got ripped off by a HC who had the work ethic of a sloth and no emotion at all about losing his job...and you still want to defend him or ridicule me for "taking swipes."

Unreal.

Most of what you say about Green is either pure conjecture on your part or outright lies. Thats why people ridicule you for taking swipes. See Joes and AJ's posts above.

Graves did give credit to Green inthe presser many times.

He said that he and Green worked together to draft (not all green) and inf act asked a reporter where he got his info when the reporter suggested that Green was responsible for the decisions. Green didnt have all the power you like to think he did.

He said he is the final word on football decisions (and yet you are still hung up on vp of football operations vs GM title)

 

[Mitch]

I don't remember all of the details on that draft trade Mitch but as I recall it was really a boneheaded move. First he passes up Terrel Suggs (maybe the reasons were legit maybe not).

Then IIRC he was so eager to trade out of the #7 spot he didn't get any extra picks for it and in fact traded places with the other team(forgot who it was now) I believe in the 2nd round. Our pick in the 2nd round was considerably higher than the other teams was I believe. I am fuzzy on the details now but it went down something like that. Anyway that was not a good omen for him being in charge of football decisions! He seemed to forget that the other team was eager to trade up as well and that he should require them to pay the Cards for wanting to swap places. Incredibly he didn't.

It was a mistake, Big Red Ark...but that's the risk teams take when they trade down...but...just as the trade down was a mistake, drafting Anquan Boldin in the 2nd round was a home run. I would also say drafting Gerald Hayes in the 3rd round in that draft and Reggie Wells in the 6th have turned out pretty well too...especially now that Hayes was healthy for most of the year and Wells has now been playing at his more natural position. Notice too that of the five players, Boldin, Hayes and Wells have been the ones Graves signed to long-term extensions.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

um -- he got two first round picks for #7 overall

no doubt they botched the picks --

but a decent recovery with Boldin, Gerald Hayes and Reggie Wells during the rest of that draft

They also gave NO there third round pick IIRC. Bad moves

 

[BigRedArk]

um -- he got two first round picks for #7 overall

no doubt they botched the picks --

but a decent recovery with Boldin, Gerald Hayes and Reggie Wells during the rest of that draft

Ok that I was fuzzy on that part. Yes he should have held his ground and said no to any swapping of the 2nd or 3rd round picks (seems like it was a 2nd) and said take it or leave it.

 

[ajcardfan]

AJ: Green isn't biting the hand that fed him this time...because this is his last gig and he wants to take the money and run.

It's amazing to me that you all just got ripped off by a HC who had the work ethic of a sloth and no emotion at all about losing his job...and you still want to defend him or ridicule me for "taking swipes."

Unreal.

I wasn't ridiculing you Mitch.

And, Green deservedly got fired. I don't think the guy was utterly devoid of any good qualities though. After Dungy's son committed suicide, Dennis Green was the first coach he called. He can't be all bad.


You did say Graves had to be totally subservient to Green however. Why was Mike trying to give Graves credit for building the roster then? I don't like dishonesty.

 

[BigRedArk]

They also gave NO there third round pick IIRC. Bad moves

Yeah it seems like something like that was included as well. He really got hosed on that one IIRC.

 

[Mitch]

Most of what you say about Green is either pure conjecture on your part or outright lies. Thats why people ridicule you for taking swipes. See Joes and AJ's posts above.

Graves did give credit to Green inthe presser many times.

He said that he and Green worked together to draft (not all green) and inf act asked a reporter where he got his info when the reporter suggested that Green was responsible for the decisions. Green didnt have all the power you like to think he did.

He said he is the final word on football decisions (and yet you are still hung up on vp of football operations vs GM title)

Give me one iota of proof that anything I have said about Green is a lie...

Lay it out there...go ahead...

 

[MrY]

ODE TO ROD GRAVES


"Nice Guys Finish Last"

Nice guys finish last.
You're running out of gas.
Your sympathy will get you left behind.
Sometimes you're at your best, when you feel the worst.
Do you feel washed up, like pi** going down the drain

Pressure cooker pick my brain and tell me I'm insane.
I'm so f****** happy I could cry.
Every joke can have its truth and now the joke's on you.
I never knew you were such a funny guy.

Oh nice guys finish last, when you are the outcast.
Don't pat yourself on the back you might break your spine.

Living on command.
You're shaking lots of hands.
Kissing up and bleeding all your trust, taking what you need.
Bite the hand that feeds.
You lose your memory and you got no shame.​

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Give me one iota of proof that anything I have said about Green is a lie...

Lay it out there...go ahead...

The Bidwills and Graves put their faith in Green...the bottom line is Green just wanted to delegate and stand back while others did the work...he scammed this organization out of a cool $10M...which is why they COULDN'T thank him for his efforts,


That is completly untrue and Graves and MB both thanked him numerous times during the presser. Please go back and listen.

Alos the scammed part is complete conjecture and you say it out of a predetermined hatred for DG.

We have been through this all before....kinda boring really. I know where you stand. Would respect your opinions more if you didnt state your judgement calls as facts though. Coz theyarent

 

[Ed Burmila]

So, Steve, how do you and cbus and the other "Cards are cheap" explain the team's swallowing seven, now eight, coaching contracts for fired coaches in the last three years?

Oh, wait, those don't count because they contradict your opinions.

Jim, the only problem with RG is that he can't draft his way out of a wet paper bag. I absolutely refuse to believe it's just a great big coincidence that the only 3 solid drafts this team has had occurred when Dennis Green were hired.

If Rod Graves were pulling the trigger on draft day, there's no way he would have gone from picking Calvin Pace and Levar Fisher to Larry Fitzgerald and Karlos Dansby overnight.

Anyone who says Graves hasn't negotiated contracts well.....I agree with your point that this is unfair criticism. He HAS extended and negotiated contracts prudently.

But I think you and Nidan are letting your personal liking toward RG cloud the fact that he hasn't exactly proven himself to be a good talent evaluator. In fact he's proven to be quite an awful one - assuming he had any influence at all in the drafting process pre-Dennis Green.

Of course, since none of us know what Rod Graves actually DOES in secret Bidwill land, it's hard to say "He did X well and Y poorly."

 

[Mitch]

I wasn't ridiculing you Mitch.

And, Green deservedly got fired. I don't think the guy was utterly devoid of any good qualities though. After Dungy's son committed suicide, Dennis Green was the first coach he called. He can't be all bad.


You did say Graves had to be totally subservient to Green however. Why was Mike trying to give Graves credit for building the roster then? I don't like dishonesty.

Graves did have a partnership with Green, the scouts and the coaching staff on draft decisions...

Do remember to footage from the Cards' draft room when the Cards selected DT Jonathan Lewis this past year. It looked like Graves was actually more in command of the pick than Green...

Green isn't all bad...he's a top shelf drafter, especially on the first day...and it is classy that he was the first to call Dungee...

If he's that much of a people person however, why did he basically ignore the players in Arizona, especially on the sidelines?

Funny how yesterday ESPN chose to show the one shot where any player tried to share a moment of in-game glee with Green...and Green wanted no part of it...Josh McCown in Mexico last year after a TD...

Maybe it's just me...but having coached football myself...and knowing what an emotional game it is...I just can't imagine how a coach can stand idly on the sidelines with virtually NOTHING to share with the players...NO EMOTION AT ALL>>>NOTHING.

 

[MrY]

I just can't imagine how a coach can stand idly on the sidelines with virtually NOTHING to share with the players...NO EMOTION AT ALL>>>NOTHING.

Try to imagine it Mitch. Not all people think and act alike. If I set up myself to be happy on how someone else acts, I am in for a lot of misery

 

[Rats]

Give me one iota of proof that anything I have said about Green is a lie...

Lay it out there...go ahead...

What you try and do Mitch is seperate the good and bad and put the Bad on Dennis Green. The Bad for this franchise exsited before Dennis Green and will be here now that he is gone. Dennis Green had faults as a coach and as a person but the Cardinals have a cronic stupidity gene that runs thru the entire organization. Dennis Green did not bring that with him. He had a resume of winning football games until he came here and went 5-11, 6-10, and 5-11. In fact it was one of the highest winning percenteges for a headcoach until he came to the Cardinals. There owners are coach killers because the entire Ownership group does not know how to run a football operation. They continue to make mistake after mistake and now they compounded the mistake by extending the guy in charge of Football operations, in which they have had zero winning seasons since he got here. They should have cleaned house. Graves is a nice guy, but should no longer be in charge of the Cardinals football operations. He sucks at it as do the Bidwills.

 

[Mitch]

The Bidwills and Graves put their faith in Green...the bottom line is Green just wanted to delegate and stand back while others did the work...he scammed this organization out of a cool $10M...which is why they COULDN'T thank him for his efforts,


That is completly untrue and Graves and MB both thanked him numerous times during the presser. Please go back and listen.

Alos the scammed part is complete conjecture and you say it out of a predetermined hatred for DG.

We have been through this all before....kinda boring really. I know where you stand. Would respect your opinions more if you didnt state your judgement calls as facts though. Coz theyarent

I went back and listened to the presser...they did not thank him once...Graves acknowledged Green's role in the draft and assembling the Top 100...that's it...no thanks...

My proof of Green scamming the organization?

1. Poor game planning week after lousy week.

2. Atrocious in-game decisions and lack of adjustments.

3. Virtually NO understanding of clock management.

4. Can't even call the plays himself after he hangs Keith Rowen out to dry.

5. Talks like a lame duck HALF WAY into a season, with his job on the line.

Tell me one thing that suggest Green even wanted to return? No, you can't. Green wanted what he got...the ultimate sinecure: $2.5M to play with for doing nothing at all next year.

 

[Ed Burmila]

Maybe it's just me...but having coached football myself...and knowing what an emotional game it is...I just can't imagine how a coach can stand idly on the sidelines with virtually NOTHING to share with the players...NO EMOTION AT ALL>>>NOTHING.

Mitch, lots of good coaches have stone faces on the sideline. And lots of "screamers" are awful coaches.

Dennis Green showed plenty of emotion at various times (after the Chicago game, for example). He was also vocal and excitable during practices. I am not picking nits with your overall point, but I do not think that Green's failure to jump up and down on the sidelines means much.

I'm a Wisconsin alum, and Barry Alvarez led that team to 20 years of success (including sending dozens of players into the NFL) without changing facial expressions.

 

[Red Dawn]

I have read the Graves-bashing for years regarding selecting a coach, personnel, and contracts. I dont see how any of us posters could really know his involvement in these matters without actually being in the room when the decisions are made. Who made such and such a decision? RG? Denny? RG and Denny? Mr. B Sr.? Mike B? It seems to me trying to pin the credit/blame on someone with the minimal hard facts we have at our fingertips results in a lot of guessing as to who is reponsible for what. It's fun to read about but as far as I know none of us are in the front office, so I take it all with a grain of salt. I have been impressed by RG in the interviews he has given, but thats just my opinion. If RG has been making all the personnel calls the last few years then I think we are in good shape once we get a coach with game day skills. I could care less if the guy who cleans the urinal makes the personnel decisions as long as we start a winning tradition, and I think we are closer to that than ever.