Reality Check

[BigRedArk]

It was a mistake, Big Red Ark...but that's the risk teams take when they trade down...but...just as the trade down was a mistake, drafting Anquan Boldin in the 2nd round was a home run. I would also say drafting Gerald Hayes in the 3rd round in that draft and Reggie Wells in the 6th have turned out pretty well too...especially now that Hayes was healthy for most of the year and Wells has now been playing at his more natural position. Notice too that of the five players, Boldin, Hayes and Wells have been the ones Graves signed to long-term extensions.

Yes very true Mitch. Unfortunately we had to take the bitter at first and the sweet later in that draft. I guess I should be thankful for what we got out of it.

 

[Ed Burmila]

The Cards got lucky on Boldin. If they had any idea he'd be THIS GOOD they would have taken him in the first round that year instead of Bryant Johnson. It's hard to give Green, Graves, Bidwill, or anyone too much credit for that pick. NO ONE had any idea how good he'd be, including us.

 

[Mitch]

Mitch, lots of good coaches have stone faces on the sideline. And lots of "screamers" are awful coaches.

Dennis Green showed plenty of emotion at various times (after the Chicago game, for example). He was also vocal and excitable during practices. I am not picking nits with your overall point, but I do not think that Green's failure to jump up and down on the sidelines means much.

I'm a Wisconsin alum, and Barry Alvarez led that team to 20 years of success (including sending dozens of players into the NFL) without changing facial expressions.

Yes, Ed. You're right. But Barry Alverez was in his players' ears all the time on the sidelines. Green just stood there...noone never came near him. This is mystifying to me...in a profession where communication and psychology are so critical.

Also, Ed, I would just ask you to look back at Graves' selections of Boldin, Hayes and Wells in rounds 2,3,6...that's pretty good drafting, IMO, despite the first round mistake. There were some pundits this year touting Hayes for the Pro Bowl. And Wells did darned well when they FINALLY played him where he belongs. Obviously the Bills saw Wells' ability too.

 

[Mitch]

The Cards got lucky on Boldin. If they had any idea he'd be THIS GOOD they would have taken him in the first round that year instead of Bryant Johnson. It's hard to give Green, Graves, Bidwill, or anyone too much credit for that pick. NO ONE had any idea how good he'd be, including us.

Wow, Ed. The Cards had already taken a WR in round one...it was therefore a brilliant call to take whom they considered to be the best player on their board in Boldin. The Cards deserve more credit than what you're giving them.

 

[Mr.Dibbs]

Reasons why Graves should stick around:

Signed Hayes to an extension, signed Dockett to an extension, Signed Fransisco to an extension, signed Warner to an extension, signed Wells instead of letting him bail, signed Boldin to an extension, kept Wilson around, and one can argue none of those things would have happened four-five years ago.

I don't blame Graves for Denny. Denny came in with a good track record, and you always hear the "hire a coach and get out of the way" mantra until it doesn't work.

 

[Ed Burmila]

You can tout Boldin, Hayes and Wells as a good draft. You are correct.

But that's picking three guys out of year after year of awful drafts before Dennis Green got here. Boldin was a 2nd rounder, but so were Johnny Rutledge, Ray Thompson, and Levar Fisher.

 

[Mr.Dibbs]

You can tout Boldin, Hayes and Wells as a good draft. You are correct.

But that's picking three guys out of year after year of awful drafts before Dennis Green got here. Boldin was a 2nd rounder, but so were Johnny Rutledge, Ray Thompson, and Levar Fisher.

I beleive Graves first draft was the Boldin draft, so blaming him for anything prior isn't fair.

 

[Ed Burmila]

I beleive Graves first draft was the Boldin draft, so blaming him for anything prior isn't fair.

RG was around long before that.

Of course, no one has ever quite been able to figure out what Graves really does so maybe it's not right to give him ANY credit for the drafts - good or bad.

The Bidwills are secretive. Coaches seem to have an awful lot of input in the drafting process. We can only guess at what RG (or his pseudo-GM predecessor Ferguson) is responsible for.

 

[ajcardfan]

RG was around long before that.

Of course, no one has ever quite been able to figure out what Graves really does so maybe it's not right to give him ANY credit for the drafts - good or bad.

The Bidwills are secretive. Coaches seem to have an awful lot of input in the drafting process. We can only guess at what RG (or his pseudo-GM predecessor Ferguson) is responsible for.

I still want to know why Mike Bidwill was trying to give him all the credit for our current roster yesterday.

 

[BACH]

You notice that in the press conference (as is usually customary) neither Graves nor Bidwill thanked Dennis Green for his efforts...that says a lot...

My guess is that neither Graves nor MB was enamored with Green's lax work ethic (which is why they now want a detail guy with a plan), hands-off approach, or his obstinancy.

It looked to me all along that Green treated this job the same way Buddy Ryan did: as a sinecure.

I agree. Another thing I noticed was when listing the criterias for the new coach. The first thing Graves mentioned was: "He HAS to be organized and well-prepared" Boy, that the biggest hint about what was wrong with the coaching staff I've ever seen.

Another thing.... All the people having selective memories about Graves are a joke. I'm serious! I have yet to get any explanation how drafting Pace was all Graves fault, while Boldin wasn't Graves' pick. Graves has had good decisions and bad decisions. (BTW... BJ wasn't a reach at #17, only Pace at #18)

I also hear that Green was in control of the recent drafts - not Graves. And that the reason why they have been pretty good. Graves explained the draft process yesterday. The scouting department make a list and that list gets adjusted according to the wishes of the coaching staff and team needs by Graves. The process is a negotiating between Graves, Keim and Green. A lot of people seem to think that Green had the final say in that process - resulting in good drafts. Well, please tell why you believe that. Green did ask to get players from bigger programs and Graves followed suit. Apart from that, I haven't seen anything to suggest that Green ran the draft process.
If you spend just one minute looking at the drafts, I believe it's pretty obvious that Keim has the most influence on our drafts. Keim is still respondsible for scouting in the southeast. Well.... Look, where our players come from. 12 of our last 28 picks (4 years) come from the SEC or the ACC - both directly under Keim. Please tell me how that is a coincidence.

Being critical of Graves is fine. Lying and twisting the truth is a joke. This is a message board where people with different opinions meet. Why lie to prove a point. It's okay to disagree...

 

[conraddobler]

I agree. Another thing I noticed was when listing the criterias for the new coach. The first thing Graves mentioned was: "He HAS to be organized and well-prepared" Boy, that the biggest hint about what was wrong with the coaching staff I've ever seen.

Another thing.... All the people having selective memories about Graves are a joke. I'm serious! I have yet to get any explanation how drafting Pace was all Graves fault, while Boldin wasn't Graves' pick. Graves has had good decisions and bad decisions. (BTW... BJ wasn't a reach at #17, only Pace at #18)

I also hear that Green was in control of the recent drafts - not Graves. And that the reason why they have been pretty good. Graves explained the draft process yesterday. The scouting department make a list and that list gets adjusted according to the wishes of the coaching staff and team needs by Graves. The process is a negotiating between Graves, Keim and Green. A lot of people seem to think that Green had the final say in that process - resulting in good drafts. Well, please tell why you believe that. Green did ask to get players from bigger programs and Graves followed suit. Apart from that, I haven't seen anything to suggest that Green ran the draft process.
If you spend just one minute looking at the drafts, I believe it's pretty obvious that Keim has the most influence on our drafts. Keim is still respondsible for scouting in the southeast. Well.... Look, where our players come from. 12 of our last 28 picks (4 years) come from the SEC or the ACC - both directly under Keim. Please tell me how that is a coincidence.

Being critical of Graves is fine. Lying and twisting the truth is a joke. This is a message board where people with different opinions meet. Why lie to prove a point. It's okay to disagree...

Funny how Green is gone he was just an afterthought, didn't do anything but fail to coach up these great players...

That's fairly revisionist excuse me.

So let me get this straight, when Green did questionable things like can Kendal and LJ that was allowed due to supporting the coach, yet when he wanted to draft a player he just looked at the board and said, yippee that's awesome good pick Rod and Steve you guys are so good.

Oh my.

 

[ajcardfan]

Funny how Green is gone he was just an afterthought, didn't do anything but fail to coach up these great players...

That's fairly revisionist excuse me.

Yeah, there seems to be a definite spin attempt to pin everything bad the last three years on Green.

 

[ajcardfan]

So let me get this straight, when Green did questionable things like can Kendal and LJ that was allowed due to supporting the coach, yet when he wanted to draft a player he just looked at the board and said, yippee that's awesome good pick Rod and Steve you guys are so good.

Oh my.

 

[conraddobler]

Yeah, there seems to be a definite spin attempt to pin everything bad the last three years on Green.

I'd say it was successful but that's probably because MB's butt was in the sling along with Rod's so putting DG under the bus is all too convenient, not even a thanks for stopping by just he's gone, everything's gonna be great now, nevermind we hired him, nevermind we watched as he did goofy thing after goofy thing, it was all him he was nuts but now we're all good again.

I didn't like DG and it's even ticking me off how they are in such denial it's stupid.

 

[40yearfan]

Yeah, there seems to be a definite spin attempt to pin everything bad the last three years on Green.

I don't think so. It seems like everyone on here has given Green credit for the drafts. It's just an adverse reaction to others on here who want to pin everything bad on Graves.

 

[AZCB34]

By who or what? Why?

Yesterday, Mike tried to give Graves all the credit for assembling the roster we have now. Graves, to his credit, quickly deflected that and gave some props to Green.

So, was Graves the architect in assembling this talent? Or, a helpless toady who couldn't stand up to big ol' mean Dennis for three seasons?

That just doesn't jive with me.


Also, for all of your swipes at Green, given his past, are you not surprised by the high road he has consistently taken with the Bidwills and Graves? For a guy who's rep is blaming everybody but himself, his actual words and actions towards management haven't born that out.

Michael B has always come across to me as the type of guy who is...I guess petty and vindictive is as close as I can get...and it doesn't surprise me that he would slight Denny's role in the assembling of the roster and pass it onto Graves (whom I fully expected all along to be retained as GM).

I think the reality is Graves did alot of the legwork and Green did alot of the decision-making based on Rod's work (and the scouting department as well).

 

[conraddobler]

I don't think so. It seems like everyone on here has given Green credit for the drafts. It's just an adverse reaction to others on here who want to pin everything bad on Graves.

That is a complete and utter mischaracterization of how I feel about Rod Graves.

Rod Graves made the most horrific statement any pseudo or real GM has ever said, he said during the season, WE AREN'T ONE OR TWO PLAYERS AWAY.

That was horrible, he just yesterday said we're very close we just need a coach...

So which one is it 40?

Rod Graves is on my list for that statement but I'm not against him being with the club and doing contracts, heck I think he should be in charge of player development and contracts, the players think he's a class guy and he's good at contracts but where oh where is all this confidence in his ability to build a roster by picking the right players comming from?

Where?

DG out and out said his choices for extensions prior to DG were awful, he extended who? He extended a couple players DG proceeded to throw away.

We all said to almost a man, Green sure can pick players, some liked him as a coach for a while, some didn't but all of us agreed he could spot talent, suddenly the company line is, oh no it was Rod too, well that's just pure BS.

 

[kerouac9]

Do remember to footage from the Cards' draft room when the Cards selected DT Jonathan Lewis this past year. It looked like Graves was actually more in command of the pick than Green...

The same Jonathan Lewis who was inactive for the entire season and we had to sign Cooper off the street, who was put on the active roster for the last half-dozen or so games of the season? That Jonathan Lewis?

Great pick, Rod.

 

[Skkorpion]

Ed Burmila was completely right in saying we'll never know who has been responsible for what in this secretive Bidwill operation.

For ajcardfan, if you'll go back in Kent Somers' articles less than 3 weeks, you'll find where Kent says that Denny Green didn't attend a single offensive game plan meeting until midway through this, his third year. In the same article, he credits Graves for the player re-signings.

I'm done with this. I just got tired of a good man taking blame for every bad thing regardless of whether he was responsible or not.

Oh, MrY, you are banned forever for your stupid vulgar ode right after I posted I'm tired of the vulgarity.

 

[ajcardfan]

Ed Burmila was completely right in saying we'll never know who has been responsible for what in this secretive Bidwill operation.

For ajcardfan, if you'll go back in Kent Somers' articles less than 3 weeks, you'll find where Kent says that Denny Green didn't attend a single offensive game plan meeting until midway through this, his third year. In the same article, he credits Graves for the player re-signings.

Yes, I read the article Skkorp. Don't quite understand what that has to do with my concerns about Graves being extended and the current management team kept in place. Because I also agree with Ed's statements. One thing I totally agree with is that Green did a bad job and had to be fired.

But, all we heard for three years was how Denny called the shots on personnel. Then, we hear from Mike that was all Rod. Rod says, no it was a team effort with the scouts and Green. It all sounds very dysfunctional to me. I don't doubt Rod is a good guy, but he doesn't appear to have all the power. How can we not be apprehensive and skeptical?

Obviously, I hope for the best. I hope we win so many Super Bowls they rename the trophy the "Lombardi/Graves" trophy.

 

[conraddobler]

The only thing odd that I find is that for 3 years when bashing Green or praising him we've all almost universally at least nodded at his talent spotting skills, going all the way back to Fitz which is almost all him.

We did all this with nary a peep that, oh no really it's Rod and Steve too, not once did anyone bring that up to my knowledge until just the other day which is the odd part to me.

So it's odd again that now that Green is gone this would come to light, odd as in not impossible just really odd that it'd come out now.

I don't hate Rod Graves he's a good guy as far as I can tell, I do question him running the team and don't apologize for that, but I'm open to being proved wrong starting with an awesome hire for a coach followed by a great draft and a great FA period, on time signings then off to camp we go.

He can prove me wrong and I'm fine with it.

As to Green not going to meetings, well maybe he should have gotten the boot last year that being the case, I never liked him in the first place because he's an egotistical fool.

 

[40yearfan]

That is a complete and utter mischaracterization of how I feel about Rod Graves.

Rod Graves made the most horrific statement any pseudo or real GM has ever said, he said during the season, WE AREN'T ONE OR TWO PLAYERS AWAY.

That was horrible, he just yesterday said we're very close we just need a coach...

So which one is it 40?

Rod Graves is on my list for that statement but I'm not against him being with the club and doing contracts, heck I think he should be in charge of player development and contracts, the players think he's a class guy and he's good at contracts but where oh where is all this confidence in his ability to build a roster by picking the right players comming from?

Where?

DG out and out said his choices for extensions prior to DG were awful, he extended who? He extended a couple players DG proceeded to throw away.

We all said to almost a man, Green sure can pick players, some liked him as a coach for a while, some didn't but all of us agreed he could spot talent, suddenly the company line is, oh no it was Rod too, well that's just pure BS.

CD, what made you think I was talking about you? You asked a question and I answered it.

Why is it when someone wants to beat on Graves, they have to go back in time? Could it be that maybe he's been doing a good job lately and there's nothing to complain about? Everyone has a learning curve and if people insist on pointing out past faux paus, they also need to give credit for current good deeds.

So I guess my question to you is, are you saying Graves had little on nothing to do with the draft picks and free agent signings and if so, where did you get that information?

 

[john h]

Sure there have been some missteps along the way. But is anyone ready to argue there is less talent on this team than there was 4 years ago? With this team its hard to tell who is responsible for that but if they say its mostly Graves than he deserves another couple of years.

From what Graves said he was the man in last years draft. He and Denny put together a best 100 list and he was the FINAL approver.

 

[az1965]

Graves did have a partnership with Green, the scouts and the coaching staff on draft decisions...

Do remember to footage from the Cards' draft room when the Cards selected DT Jonathan Lewis this past year. It looked like Graves was actually more in command of the pick than Green...

Green isn't all bad...he's a top shelf drafter, especially on the first day...and it is classy that he was the first to call Dungee...

If he's that much of a people person however, why did he basically ignore the players in Arizona, especially on the sidelines?

Funny how yesterday ESPN chose to show the one shot where any player tried to share a moment of in-game glee with Green...and Green wanted no part of it...Josh McCown in Mexico last year after a TD...

Maybe it's just me...but having coached football myself...and knowing what an emotional game it is...I just can't imagine how a coach can stand idly on the sidelines with virtually NOTHING to share with the players...NO EMOTION AT ALL>>>NOTHING.

And yet most of the players were still behind him and were working their tail off on the field when the season was all over. If Green had alienated the players that much, that was surprising that all these players are still behind him.

I'm not supporting Green and believe he had to be fired but some of the comments about him are pure speculations based on TV shots.

 

[az1965]

The same Jonathan Lewis who was inactive for the entire season and we had to sign Cooper off the street, who was put on the active roster for the last half-dozen or so games of the season? That Jonathan Lewis?

Great pick, Rod.