Rod Graves interview

[Chopper0080]

"I am more onboard with the idea of going after an RFA and in some respects they don't even have to trade down for extra picks IMO. You would be getting an NFL ready DE for your 1st rounder instead of drafting an unknown player, hoping he gets into camp on time and then hoping he is one of the guys who doesn't go bust."

-AZCB34

Yes you get someone who has proven that they can play in the NFL, but you also end up paying that player more money and get him for less years. Most restricted free agent offers are more than some of the top 10 picks in the draft. PLus these players come with more wear and tear on thier bodies. I agree that going after certain RFA that could push you into the postseason is a decent idea as long as you only give up a late pick at a poorly talented position in the draft. Also, be wary to fight the financial strom in a couple years.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Chopper0080
Ok, go your last post a little late.

YOu say that KGB is a proven player, but all he has proven is that he is an excellent situational player, with good speed, but doesn't have th eability to play every down. The only reason he started last year was because of the injuries to Holliday and Joe Johnson.

At one point the Packers were going to move Holliday inside and have KGB play outside opposite Johnson. The Holliday holdout and then the Johnson injury made that moot. KGB isn't as good a run defender as Holliday, but KGB had more sacks the past 2 years than Colvin and look how bad we wanted Colvin. I had ruled out KGB due to the RFA status but it does make alot of sense when you think about it. A proven NFL caliber player for your first rounder instead of all the unknown issues with a draft choice? Take the known over the unknown.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Chopper0080
Ok, go your last post a little late.

YOu say that KGB is a proven player, but all he has proven is that he is an excellent situational player, with good speed, but doesn't have th eability to play every down. The only reason he started last year was because of the injuries to Holliday and Joe Johnson.

Yeah, but they already used him extensively anyway!

If KGB gets 15 sacks for us next year (he is very capable of that) than I could give a rat's posterior if he was only a situational player. He is a great pass rusher, and isn't done developing as a player (he very well could improve as a run defender, ala Simeon Rice).

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Chopper0080
"I am more onboard with the idea of going after an RFA and in some respects they don't even have to trade down for extra picks IMO. You would be getting an NFL ready DE for your 1st rounder instead of drafting an unknown player, hoping he gets into camp on time and then hoping he is one of the guys who doesn't go bust."

-AZCB34

Yes you get someone who has proven that they can play in the NFL, but you also end up paying that player more money and get him for less years. Most restricted free agent offers are more than some of the top 10 picks in the draft. PLus these players come with more wear and tear on thier bodies. I agree that going after certain RFA that could push you into the postseason is a decent idea as long as you only give up a late pick at a poorly talented position in the draft. Also, be wary to fight the financial strom in a couple years.

KGB has very little wear and tear on his body....he still probably has six good years left.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Chopper0080
"I am more onboard with the idea of going after an RFA and in some respects they don't even have to trade down for extra picks IMO. You would be getting an NFL ready DE for your 1st rounder instead of drafting an unknown player, hoping he gets into camp on time and then hoping he is one of the guys who doesn't go bust."

-AZCB34

Yes you get someone who has proven that they can play in the NFL, but you also end up paying that player more money and get him for less years. Most restricted free agent offers are more than some of the top 10 picks in the draft. PLus these players come with more wear and tear on thier bodies. I agree that going after certain RFA that could push you into the postseason is a decent idea as long as you only give up a late pick at a poorly talented position in the draft. Also, be wary to fight the financial strom in a couple years.

You will pay less in signing bonus and structure it right and the salary cap hit later if you decide to cut is in your favor. Also, rookies are by and large holding out for 4 year deals so they can become UFAs since AZ doesn;t do bells and whistles on their deals by and large. Yes, you likely get him for one year less but by then you are reloading positions anyway.

 

[Chopper0080]

AZCB-I would hope that KGB had more sacks than Colvin since Colvin is an OLB. That does nothing for me, especially with the price tag that KGB would come with. Signing his offer sheet would be probably be as expensive as our 6th pick and he is only a situational player.

"If KGB gets 15 sacks for us next year (he is very capable of that) than I could give a rat's posterior if he was only a situational player. He is a great pass rusher, and isn't done developing as a player (he very well could improve as a run defender, ala Simeon Rice)."

-Krang

You might not care but I do. So we spend all this money to sign KGB so that the Pack won't match and we improve our pass rush on long yardage situations and are the same otherwise. Or, if we play him regularly, we can't stop the run so we never are in long yardage situations. The fact is that KGB has a great motor but is simply not the athlete that Simeon is. Simeon improved against the run because Simeon wanted to.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Chopper0080
AZCB-I would hope that KGB had more sacks than Colvin since Colvin is an OLB. That does nothing for me, especially with the price tag that KGB would come with. Signing his offer sheet would be probably be as expensive as our 6th pick and he is only a situational player.

"If KGB gets 15 sacks for us next year (he is very capable of that) than I could give a rat's posterior if he was only a situational player. He is a great pass rusher, and isn't done developing as a player (he very well could improve as a run defender, ala Simeon Rice)."

-Krang

You might not care but I do. So we spend all this money to sign KGB so that the Pack won't match and we improve our pass rush on long yardage situations and are the same otherwise. Or, if we play him regularly, we can't stop the run so we never are in long yardage situations. The fact is that KGB has a great motor but is simply not the athlete that Simeon is. Simeon improved against the run because Simeon wanted to.

Did we watch the same player (not to sound like a prick)? KGB is about on par with a young Simeon athletically. He will improve against the run and that can be expected.

 

[Chopper0080]

"Also, rookies are by and large holding out for 4 year deals so they can become UFAs"

Just to make certain, isn't Boston the last first rounder of ours to get a 4 year deal? I could be wrong but I think that he is.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Chopper0080
"Also, rookies are by and large holding out for 4 year deals so they can become UFAs"

Just to make certain, isn't Boston the last first rounder of ours to get a 4 year deal? I could be wrong but I think that he is.

I think Wendell did also...so did T.J.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Chopper0080
AZCB-I would hope that KGB had more sacks than Colvin since Colvin is an OLB. That does nothing for me, especially with the price tag that KGB would come with. Signing his offer sheet would be probably be as expensive as our 6th pick and he is only a situational player.

Except all of Colvins sacks (well I better not commit to all because I didn't see EVERY Bears game but eh vast majority) came as a DE. It was rare he blitzed as a LB. He was always down as a DE getting his sacks. So in reality you are comparing apples to apples athough you are probably comparing Granny Smiths to Fujis.

There is no way he would be as expensive as the #6 overall pick IMO...not after the immense signing bonus #6 will command.

I would also argue that KGB hasn't stopped improving so he can just as easily improve against the run ala Rice. I'll take his 25.5 sacks over the past 2 years and then I will coach the hel, out of him on how to play the run. Unlike Rice, I think he would be more perceptive to learning to defend the run.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
I think Wendell did also...so did T.J.

Right, TJ for sure did and if I recall, Bryant actually got some bells and whistles but nothing huge...maybe a voidable year or something. Brain cramping about Bryant's contract right now.

 

[Chopper0080]

Krang, I don't see where he will improve. He is undersized and lanky. He is 25 years old (and I believe will turn 26 this season) and so his body is pretty much peaked. If he hasn't bulked up (keep in mind size and optimum playing speed) by now, he probably won't.

Simeon Rice (6'5" 268)is also a much bigger guy (KGB, 6'4" 255), by about 1 inch in height and 13 pounds. I just don't see how KGB is at par with Simeon.

 

[BACH]

I would love it, if the Cards traded down with eg. the Jets and signed KGB, but what makes you so sure that Graves was taking about KGB?

What about Nail Diggs?? A 4th rounder for an up and coming LB that was probably the Packs best linebacker last season.

Just a thought...

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
Did we watch the same player (not to sound like a prick)? KGB is about on par with a young Simeon athletically. He will improve against the run and that can be expected.

If I may play Devil's advocate. We have a guy on our roster named Dennis Johnson who is taller than KGB, listed at 264(KGB is 255), younger than KGB(2 years) and I believe has similar athletic ability(No idea what either ran in the 40 at the combine).

KGB is developed, DJ is not, do we really want to give up the 6th pick in the draft (which could get us a DT or WR) when it's conceivable that DJ might blossom in year 2 exactly as KGB did?

Maybe I'm being an optimist but I really expect Bryant and Johnson to improve immensely this year I think they're both going to be very good NFL players. If we can get Suggs great, if we can't I'm not sure we want to finagle 2 picks out of one and then go after KGB.

it is an interesting idea I guess I'm just not convinced KGB is worth the gamble because I happen to think Johnson will be a double figure sack guy himself at some point in his NFL career.

I would like the move if we thought we'd end up in a situation where we could draft say Robertson with one of the picks and a WR with the other, I'm just not convinced Robertson will fall below #10 in this draft.

 

[AZCB34]

Sorry Bryant is signed 5 years it appears.

http://www.nflpa.org/members/playerProfile.asp?ID=32988

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
If I may play Devil's advocate. We have a guy on our roster named Dennis Johnson who is taller than KGB, listed at 264(KGB is 255), younger than KGB(2 years) and I believe has similar athletic ability(No idea what either ran in the 40 at the combine).

KGB is developed, DJ is not, do we really want to give up the 6th pick in the draft (which could get us a DT or WR) when it's conceivable that DJ might blossom in year 2 exactly as KGB did?

Maybe I'm being an optimist but I really expect Bryant and Johnson to improve immensely this year I think they're both going to be very good NFL players. If we can get Suggs great, if we can't I'm not sure we want to finagle 2 picks out of one and then go after KGB.

it is an interesting idea I guess I'm just not convinced KGB is worth the gamble because I happen to think Johnson will be a double figure sack guy himself at some point in his NFL career.

I would like the move if we thought we'd end up in a situation where we could draft say Robertson with one of the picks and a WR with the other, I'm just not convinced Robertson will fall below #10 in this draft.

I think you are being an optimist, Russ

DJ ran a 4.8 at the combine.

 

[Chopper0080]

About the 4 year deals, I wasn't sure so thanks for the clarrification.

The 6th pick in the first round would be about the same contract or possibly even less than the offer sheet that we would need to sign KGB. KGB would want something comparable to Colvin.

The point I was trying to make with Colvin was that he only got a few oppotunities to play a down lineman (distant passing downs) while KGB was on the field more due to the Packers plethora of injuries.

Russ, I also agree that I expect BIG things from D Johnson and W Bryant this year. They are big fast athletes and I am starting to agree with yoiu mreo that pairing Bryant with Robertson would give us two of the most athletic d tackles in football.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
If I may play Devil's advocate. We have a guy on our roster named Dennis Johnson who is taller than KGB, listed at 264(KGB is 255), younger than KGB(2 years) and I believe has similar athletic ability(No idea what either ran in the 40 at the combine).

KGB is developed, DJ is not, do we really want to give up the 6th pick in the draft (which could get us a DT or WR) when it's conceivable that DJ might blossom in year 2 exactly as KGB did?

Maybe I'm being an optimist but I really expect Bryant and Johnson to improve immensely this year I think they're both going to be very good NFL players. If we can get Suggs great, if we can't I'm not sure we want to finagle 2 picks out of one and then go after KGB.

it is an interesting idea I guess I'm just not convinced KGB is worth the gamble because I happen to think Johnson will be a double figure sack guy himself at some point in his NFL career.

I would like the move if we thought we'd end up in a situation where we could draft say Robertson with one of the picks and a WR with the other, I'm just not convinced Robertson will fall below #10 in this draft.

Given the lack of production out of AZ draft picks recently...especially first rounders, I like the KGB scenario because you get a guy in camp on time, who already has NFL experience and who has been productive. He is a known quantity. We are hoping Johnson blossoms so you risk having no rush. Also, why not be thrilled to have KGB on one side and Johnson on the other in passing situations...since what we are really talking about is pass rush here. There is no guarantee Johnson will improve on his pass rushing abilities but KGB is already an excellent rusher who can be taught to play the run better (and he isn't as bad as some think although he isn;t a run stuffer by any means)

It makes more sense to trade down in this scenario, if they are going to pursue KGB.

 

[Chopper0080]

"I think you are being an optimist, Russ

DJ ran a 4.8 at the combine."

Why? Is it so hard to believe that the SEC sack leader last year who is bigger and a tad slower (I've never heard KGB's 40 time being vastly higher than 4.8, I've heard 4.75 though I can't remember where) can't develop into a better player than some guy from San Diego St. whi was chosen in the 5th round?

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
I think you are being an optimist, Russ

DJ ran a 4.8 at the combine.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2002/profiles/johnson_dennis.htm

We're talking about a kid who was the National HS player of the year, put a school on probation for cheating to recruit him. A kid who played highschool varsity footbal in SECOND GRADE and in 3rd before the state passed a rule banning it! A kid who made 1st team all state as an 8th grader.

The fear on DJ is he peaked early, hit his growth spurt real young and was just bigger and stronger than everyone else growing up, now he's not and he's not getting any better. I think he found out last year he can't succeed in the NFL without getting better, the question is will he?

I just think a 6'5" 264 pound DE who can run a 4.8, jump 35.5" is too talented to just write off because he had no sacks as a rookie.


I guess the biggest concern I have is I'm not convinced we had a DL coach worth a damn to work with him last year.

 

[Chopper0080]

"is already an excellent rusher who can be taught to play the run better (and he isn't as bad as some think although he isn;t a run stuffer by any means)"
AZCB34

You keep saying this and I keep shaking my head because it really isn't true. You can teach a player to improve against the run or to get to the quarterback but only to a small degree. Just as rushing the passer demands speed from a player, defending the run demands size and strength. These are things that you really can't teach. Yes, KGB could put on weight, but most likely he would lose speed because his body has peaked.

 

[Russ Smith]

I found KGB's combine numbers http://cbs.sportsline.com/u/football/nfl/2000/draft/profiles/kabeergbajabiamila.htm

So he was slightly faster in the 40 than DJ(but he's gained 12 pounds since then), otherwise very similar numbers.

i realize pass rushing is more than workout numbers it's an instinct and there's a lot to it, I just think we're underestimating Dennis Johnson's potential. This is a kid if he were in the draft THIS year might be rated as a first rounder, that's what many experts said when he came out, would have been a first rounder had he played his senior year.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2002/profiles/johnson_dennis.htm

We're talking about a kid who was the National HS player of the year, put a school on probation for cheating to recruit him. A kid who played highschool varsity footbal in SECOND GRADE and in 3rd before the state passed a rule banning it! A kid who made 1st team all state as an 8th grader.

The fear on DJ is he peaked early, hit his growth spurt real young and was just bigger and stronger than everyone else growing up, now he's not and he's not getting any better. I think he found out last year he can't succeed in the NFL without getting better, the question is will he?

I just think a 6'5" 264 pound DE who can run a 4.8, jump 35.5" is too talented to just write off because he had no sacks as a rookie.


I guess the biggest concern I have is I'm not convinced we had a DL coach worth a damn to work with him last year.

All fine and good Russ, but speaking only for myself, I am not writing off Johnson but rather trying to greatly upgrade the pass rush of this team but thinking this scenario has merit. In fact, I would love to see both Johnson and KGB terrorizing the hell out of QBs. Unlike Chopper, I think KGB could be had for less than the #6 overall pick will sign for (although maybe I am way off in my thinking...wouldn't be the first time).

Just having Johnson improve isn't going to strike fear into opposing OCs. KGB will make them think twice when they play the Cards. Add an improving Johnson and Bryant to the mix and you have something. Trading down and insuring you still have a pick in round 1 while getting KGB may allow you the luxury of adding a Robertson (not implying where he will be taken) and then you have one heckuva DL.

Can't argue about the DL coaching they may have gotten.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by AZCB34
All fine and good Russ, but speaking only for myself, I am not writing off Johnson but rather trying to greatly upgrade the pass rush of this team but thinking this scenario has merit. In fact, I would love to see both Johnson and KGB terrorizing the hell out of QBs. Unlike Chopper, I think KGB could be had for less than the #6 overall pick will sign for (although maybe I am way off in my thinking...wouldn't be the first time).

Just having Johnson improve isn't going to strike fear into opposing OCs. KGB will make them think twice when they play the Cards. Add an improving Johnson and Bryant to the mix and you have something. Trading down and insuring you still have a pick in round 1 while getting KGB may allow you the luxury of adding a Robertson (not implying where he will be taken) and then you have one heckuva DL.

Can't argue about the DL coaching they may have gotten.

OK I misunderstood your point, I thought you guys were just assuming Johnson was a non entity. I'd prefer not to move the pick but if the choice is not getting Suggs with the #6, or getting KGB by moving it, I see the merit in moving the pick.

 

[Chopper0080]

AZCB34

why do you think that KGB would take less money than Colvin? The fact is that he wouldn't. By the way, Colvin's contract is llarger than the number 6 pick will receive this year. (depending on the market, though it would need to take a big jump)