Ryan Williams cut!

[Chopper0080]

That's an interesting point. Why wouldn't it be that Arians failed to develop the prospect that Keim delivered? I'm not saying it's one way or the other, but it's impossible for us to know from the outside.



My understanding was that Whis had control over the Final 53 contractually, and as an organizational philosophy had a ton of input over the kinds of players that were brought in. It's really more a question of time management and the reality that Whis is only one human being who puts in really crazy hours from July through January, and likely doesn't have the ability to put in the same kind of work--otherwise, why have a scouting department at all?



But the point wasn't skill position over OL, it was a particular prospect over all others. I wouldn't be surprised if the organization believed that Grimm and Whis would be able to develop less-talented picks and free agents into quality starters along the line.

But SOMEONE put the bug in Whis's ear that Ryan Williams never fumbled in college, and if Williams was a Whis-driven decision, the organization's choice to keep Ryan Williams for an additional year and then never play him is mystifying.

Along those same lines, I don't think that Whis was making Keim call Rob Housler a "superstar" two Februaries ago from San Diego.

Do you think that Whis was watching a ton of Citadel film (the area where Keim was a regional scout) and decided that Andre Roberts was a future star? Really?



I see where you're coming from. It sounds like you believe in Arians, and hope/believe that Keim is giving Arians the benefit of the doubt when it comes to these prospects.

FWIW, and I don't want to re-litigate this, I think you're seeing the results of Arians being dragged along by some really good defenses to playoff success. I think that Arians has a Top 10 defense like one time in his career. He's not Mike McCarthy or Sean Peyton.

1. I believe it falls more on the GM than the coach because (in Parcell's phrasing) it is the GMs job to shop for the groceries so the coach can cook the dinner. The GM has to know what the coach needs to cook. If, in Brown's case, he can't catch or pickup the offense or has work ethic/substance abuse issues, that is on the GM. If he gets injured without it being a medical history issue, that just sucks. If he fails because he can't win on jump balls, is a liability as a blocker, or takes too many shots across the middle, that is a coaching issue IMO. I have a philosophy when it comes to developing players and that is ask them to do what they do well, anything extra is a bonus. If a guy is fast, put him in situations to be fast and he should do well. If he then shows he can also be physical, then ask him to do that as well. I believe that applies to all levels of football.

2. In terms of Whis and the draft, I think had less to do with saying "draft Ryan Williams, he is a stud" and more to do with saying "I need a RB who can catch passes, let's take this RB who can do that over this other guy at this other position."

3. Re: skill positions over linemen, I think Whis sold the front office that Russ could "coach em up" and he could scheme around the blocking issues because of the success he had with Warner. Once everyone realized we needed more talent, it was too late and we were throwing money at Adam Snyder and Daryn Colledge.

4. Ryan Williams was kept last year because the staff didn't know what to expect out of Stepfan Taylor and Ellington IMO. Otherwise, everyone was done with him. Again, just my opinion.

In the end, I think Arians and Keim can keep us as a respectable team. That is what I believe, but until we show we can draft and develop a legitimate pass rusher and QB, I don't believe we will be a Super Bowl contender.

 

[cardncubfan]

-I agree Brown is a wait and see regarding his success as a pro player. My point was that Keim delivered Arians the type of player that Arians has shown he needs. If Brown fails, then it shows Keim failed in being able to find an appropriate player to fill the void Arians needed filled.

-It was my understanding that Whis received final say on player acquisitions when his contract was extended. That would mean he would have final say on draft picks and some of them have Whis all over them IMO. As it has been discussed, there isn't a huge discrepency when it comes to player grades. We are talking about a .1 or .3 here or there. Our drafts looked to me like a head coach prefering sexy over structure.

-So, yes, Ryan Williams, Andre Roberts and Rob Houlser do have Whis all over them IMO. Offensive skill position choices over larger needs along the offensive line scream a head coach is making the choice over the GM because the head coach is maintaining he can get around the offensive line issues. In fact, the overall amount of offensive skill players drafted at the top of drafts during Whis tenure really looks to me of a guy trying to find the the parts to make his offense work rather than a GM working with his coach to manage short term needs with long term gains.

-It is all very speculative, I agree with that. And, I agree that the front office has to be able to hit on a premium position before I will be willing to state that they have turned the corner.

I am having a difficult time putting this into words, but I will try. I look at our team and the person with the most success is Bruce Arians and his ability to put together a viable offense. From what I have seen in Indy, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Indy again and Arizona, there looks to be a scheme and philosophy that works. I trust that, and I trust it more than I trust Keim's previous draft history. Because of that, the more Keim gets Arians pieces to make his offense work in an offensive league, the more confident I am. A QB makes a big difference, but if Arians can make Palmer work, I think we have some wiggle room. The more efficient Keim is at this, the more resources he can use to add talent to the defense which will lead to long term success IMO.

Hopefully that makes sense.

That's an interesting point. Why wouldn't it be that Arians failed to develop the prospect that Keim delivered? I'm not saying it's one way or the other, but it's impossible for us to know from the outside.



My understanding was that Whis had control over the Final 53 contractually, and as an organizational philosophy had a ton of input over the kinds of players that were brought in. It's really more a question of time management and the reality that Whis is only one human being who puts in really crazy hours from July through January, and likely doesn't have the ability to put in the same kind of work--otherwise, why have a scouting department at all?



But the point wasn't skill position over OL, it was a particular prospect over all others. I wouldn't be surprised if the organization believed that Grimm and Whis would be able to develop less-talented picks and free agents into quality starters along the line.

But SOMEONE put the bug in Whis's ear that Ryan Williams never fumbled in college, and if Williams was a Whis-driven decision, the organization's choice to keep Ryan Williams for an additional year and then never play him is mystifying.

Along those same lines, I don't think that Whis was making Keim call Rob Housler a "superstar" two Februaries ago from San Diego.

Do you think that Whis was watching a ton of Citadel film (the area where Keim was a regional scout) and decided that Andre Roberts was a future star? Really?



I see where you're coming from. It sounds like you believe in Arians, and hope/believe that Keim is giving Arians the benefit of the doubt when it comes to these prospects.

FWIW, and I don't want to re-litigate this, I think you're seeing the results of Arians being dragged along by some really good defenses to playoff success. I think that Arians has a Top 10 defense like one time in his career. He's not Mike McCarthy or Sean Peyton.

1. I believe it falls more on the GM than the coach because (in Parcell's phrasing) it is the GMs job to shop for the groceries so the coach can cook the dinner. The GM has to know what the coach needs to cook. If, in Brown's case, he can't catch or pickup the offense or has work ethic/substance abuse issues, that is on the GM. If he gets injured without it being a medical history issue, that just sucks. If he fails because he can't win on jump balls, is a liability as a blocker, or takes too many shots across the middle, that is a coaching issue IMO. I have a philosophy when it comes to developing players and that is ask them to do what they do well, anything extra is a bonus. If a guy is fast, put him in situations to be fast and he should do well. If he then shows he can also be physical, then ask him to do that as well. I believe that applies to all levels of football.

2. In terms of Whis and the draft, I think had less to do with saying "draft Ryan Williams, he is a stud" and more to do with saying "I need a RB who can catch passes, let's take this RB who can do that over this other guy at this other position."

3. Re: skill positions over linemen, I think Whis sold the front office that Russ could "coach em up" and he could scheme around the blocking issues because of the success he had with Warner. Once everyone realized we needed more talent, it was too late and we were throwing money at Adam Snyder and Daryn Colledge.

4. Ryan Williams was kept last year because the staff didn't know what to expect out of Stepfan Taylor and Ellington IMO. Otherwise, everyone was done with him. Again, just my opinion.

In the end, I think Arians and Keim can keep us as a respectable team. That is what I believe, but until we show we can draft and develop a legitimate pass rusher and QB, I don't believe we will be a Super Bowl contender.

Excellent posts & debate guys. This is what makes this board the best around.

 

[Cardiac]

Excellent posts & debate guys. This is what makes this board the best around.

Cosign.