Sean Payton suspended for one year, Williams indefinitely!

[ajcardfan]

Media is selling overreacting kool aid and everyone's drinking it.

Record everything that the players/coaches say in the locker room and there wouldn't be a league.

BS. You don't have to spew that kind of crap to play great football.

 

[TJ]

Media is selling overreacting kool aid and everyone's drinking it.

Record everything that the players/coaches say in the locker room and there wouldn't be a league.

If you've been in defensive meetings for collegiate or professional football teams, you will certainly hear animated coaches saying things to motivate their players to reach their maximum potential. They may say things to the effect of "hit him hard," "knock him out," "kick the **** out of him."

However, you will hardly ever hear a coach tell his players to test a player's concussion, damage their ACL, and throw money at a player for intentionally injuring opposing players. That is beyond repugnant.

During my Master's internship, I was with a silver-tongued college defensive coordinator known for saying anything and everything on his mind, with no filter. There was never an instance when he demanded his players to go out and tear ACLs, concuss players, and other deliberate forms of causing injury. Yet, the team had one of the most dominate defense in its conference.

You will see how much substance this story has and how little "media selling over-reactive kool-aid" is out there when Gregg Williams is blackballed from the league, whether by the league office or the 32 individual teams. Williams is a pariah, a parasite, and quite frankly, a disgusting human being.

 

[SoCal Cardfan]

If you've been in defensive meetings for collegiate or professional football teams, you will certainly hear animated coaches saying things to motivate their players to reach their maximum potential. They may say things to the effect of "hit him hard," "knock him out," "kick the **** out of him."

However, you will hardly ever hear a coach tell his players to test a player's concussion, damage their ACL, and throw money at a player for intentionally injuring opposing players. That is beyond repugnant.

During my Master's internship, I was with a silver-tongued college defensive coordinator known for saying anything and everything on his mind, with no filter. There was never an instance when he demanded his players to go out and tear ACLs, concuss players, and other deliberate forms of causing injury. Yet, the team had one of the most dominate defense in its conference.

You will see how much substance this story has and how little "media selling over-reactive kool-aid" is out there when Gregg Williams is blackballed from the league, whether by the league office or the 32 individual teams. Williams is a pariah, a parasite, and quite frankly, a disgusting human being.

I would bet everything I have, that he coaches in this league again.

 

[RedViper]

I think some of this stuff is hyperbole and to some extent the blood is in the water and the media is having a field day. What is undeniable to me however is the fear of huge lawsuits that would even be more massive if the league didn't fall on these guys like a ton of bricks right now. Even marquee players who are raking in millions of dolllars, in ten years, when all their investments have gone south, and they have five child support payments, all to different moms, regardless of what he says today, when he is old and injured and broke, the NFL will be an easy target and a deep pocket. These lawsuits will come out of the woodwork, count on it. Something like "Not only did I lose my health in this league, these guys intentionally did everything possible to target me, injure me, they even targeted my head, the league knew about it and didn't do a darn thing." The league is at least trying to diffuse the last sentence in that claim.

 

[TJ]

I would bet everything I have, that he coaches in this league again.

I doubt it. Why would a team open itself up to that sort of scrutiny from the league and public by hiring a defensive coordinator who currently isn't top 5 in the league at his position and currently carries a ton of baggage?

The owner of the Saints has to give the league $500,000 of his own money, loses his head coach for the entire season, assistant head coach for 6 games (who would have been the interim coach), and undetermined player suspensions due to Williams' direct actions. The Saints could ill-afford to have more distractions above and beyond the Drew Brees contract situation and now it has arguably the worst scandal ever on its hands. I can see this event single-handily costing the team a playoff spot in 2012.

After the release of this audio recording and the alleged hundreds of pages of documented accounts of specific events, I cannot see a situation where Williams coaches again in the NFL, in any capacity.

 

[THESMEL]

I like good sportsmanship- I wish could find a way to reward and applaud those who practice and teach it. Feed the good dog starve the bad dog.

You all relize these guys make billions of dollars combined each year? like 120 million each team X 32! This is criminal! The players could get arrested and jailed for assault- playing the game should not be a disguise for breaking the law.

so we should be able to offer a bounty to bust a cap in the seahawks 12th man, I don't respect it, I can't hurt folks in competition with my company? Well I work for the VA so Congress could declare war - technically. but beyond that- get the hell out of here.

Don't juice steroids and use Pop Warner players as role models for sportsmanship. they are more mature than these thugs. celebrate the good guys and great sportsmanship. Maybe they should pay the fines back to season ticket holders?

I mean Fitz has great character and gets a pretty nice paycheck, I like Eli's sportsmanship! So some get rewarded, but lets support some the good sportsmanship -


Hail Chicago Cardinals, crimson and white,
We'll back you ever, down the field we'll fight.
We'll whip the Green Bay Packers, Rams and the Bears,
We'll take Detroit and Pittsburgh, and do it fair and square. Hail Chicago Cardinals, crimson and white,
Down the field we'll fight, fight, fight.
- - - by Elmer Angsman, Vince Banonis, Bill Blackburn, & Garrard Ramsey, 1946

 

[NJCardFan]

I doubt it. Why would a team open itself up to that sort of scrutiny from the league and public by hiring a defensive coordinator who currently isn't top 5 in the league at his position and currently carries a ton of baggage?

The owner of the Saints has to give the league $500,000 of his own money, loses his head coach for the entire season, assistant head coach for 6 games (who would have been the interim coach), and undetermined player suspensions due to Williams' direct actions. The Saints could ill-afford to have more distractions above and beyond the Drew Brees contract situation and now it has arguably the worst scandal ever on its hands. I can see this event single-handily costing the team a playoff spot in 2012.

After the release of this audio recording and the alleged hundreds of pages of documented accounts of specific events, I cannot see a situation where Williams coaches again in the NFL, in any capacity.

Suspending players is going to be tricky. Unless the league can prove that an opposing player got knocked out(i.e. Warner in the playoffs) and the player who knocked him out got paid.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Suspending players is going to be tricky. Unless the league can prove that an opposing player got knocked out(i.e. Warner in the playoffs) and the player who knocked him out got paid.

I don't see why that would be necessary any more than it was necessary to show damage before the coaches could be suspended. Any player contributing to the pool or asking for a payoff from the bounty pool is and should be at risk for penalty.

Steve

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I don't see why that would be necessary any more than it was necessary to show damage before the coaches could be suspended. Any player contributing to the pool or asking for a payoff from the bounty pool is and should be at risk for penalty.

Steve

Anyone who contributed and/or received payment would be deemed to be a willing party to an on going conspiracy to ignore existing prohibitions or circumvent the spirit of fair play.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I highly highly doubt that talk like that from a coach occurs all the time. Especially the repeated references to go after the head etc..

the football consultant on my TV show who played in the league for years begs to differ with you. played for numerous clubs, said it's more commonplace than anyone wants to admit.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Wow the repeated saying of ATTACK THE HEAD! Is downright disgusting.

He could have been talking figuratively. You cut the head off of the snake, it dies. He's telling them to go for the head.

That and rubbing his fingers together while telling his players to go ahead and get fined and saying, "I got your first," meaning he was going to pay whatever fines they accrued for illegal hits.

I've only seen audio of what he said. If he did rub his fingers together, he's in trouble.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

QUOTE=dreamcastrocks;2616113]He could have been talking figuratively. You cut the head off of the snake, it dies. He's telling them to go for the head.



I've only seen audio of what he said. If he did rub his fingers together, he's in trouble.[/QUOTE]

You see audio waves?

There are other descriptions of his hand gestures which indicate he clearly meant hits to the head to both Gore and Smith. He clearly was asking for a thud to Williams head to check out his concussion and attaching Crabtree's knee and their T-end's ankle.

 

[Darkside]

Agreed, and when he's rubbing his fingers together saying "I got the first one, I got the first one," he's talking about fines his players would receive for doing what they're told. He's saying he'll pay their first fine. It's obvious what's going on in my opinion.

That being said, the Saints really got slobber-knockered in that game. They got physically beat up and down the field, which I now find quite amusing (even though I hate SF).

Teddy Brusci was just on ESPN saying this is commonplace in today's NFL. He said his OWN team basically did the same thing when he returned after having a stroke. First play during practice was a fullback lead right into his grill to test his own "head". The NFL is a man's game. Maybe more than a man's game when you talk about rhoids and the other "enhancements" a lot of players take. I find it despicable but I'm not surprised by it at all. I don't know if it's as common as Brusci makes it sound (other players have said the same thing), but I'm not surprised by it.

I think the difference is in targeting specific body parts (and targeting a dude's head repeatedly is just wrong to me) and paying them for that production and then in continuing to do it after they were told to stop. That is the real issue, not that it went on. Goodell knew it was occurring and with his recent focus on cleaning up the NFL in regards to that he decided to put a stop to it. Had the Saints complied we probably would never have known about it.

Personally, I don't even think it's effective (aside from injuring dudes) because once you take your primary focus away from fundamental football you're going to make mistakes. You can't be in proper position all the time if you're targeting a head or an outside ACL.

Even for dudes who played HS ball there is some of that (not getting paid for injuries of course): whenever some dude is injured you always go after his weak spot. I've encountered that time after time (and we're talking 30 years ago) and I can't even think of an exception to be honest. It's the nature of the sport, of any sport (even in a non-contact sport like Tennis, some dude has reconstructive surgery on his backhand wrist or whatever, you're going to be hitting backhands to him all day long). The difference I guess is in paying them for it (circumventing the salary cap and the entire penalty system in the NFL) and then lying and continuing to do it. Concussions and hitting dudes in the head is an entirely different story for me though.

I don't blame the commissioner for coming down, but it's disingenuous for him (and others, even fans) to pretend and act all shocked that it goes on. Having said that I think it's such a great sport that we don't need it to make it a great sport. It takes away from the actual skill involved in my opinion.

 

[THESMEL]

Criminal, It is criminal for cops even and every other job except: as an old school Army Combat Engineer- our job was to maim with anti personell mines, booby traps and sometimes keep the enemy alive for Army intelligence unmentionables.

I hate hockey-only at the professional level do they permanently maim and disable other human beings on purpose, it is not a by product it is premeditated and planned to disfiguring and disable a human being. Its f-ing criminal.

Nobody played football harder than Pat Tillman, He left the money on the table for all the right reasons and went to war. Army leadership acted poorly - but that had nothing to do with Pat Tillman's Duty-Honor-Country and United States Military General Orders.

Football it is not- get your mind right.

 

[Darkside]

Huge difference between playing a game and going into a theater of war with live rounds man. Tillman knew what he was getting his ass into, but he was wronged. Doesn't change the fact that he died or how he died. He would have died regardless; it's just how they reported it that sucks.

It's not criminal, in the NFL or in the service. The NFL is JUST A GAME. Nothing about it makes it criminal, I don't care what dudes say. It's a freaking game. Period.

In the service: You better go in expecting to die. My grandpa was in WWII, pulled his comrades out of a shot-up tank, manned the gunner position and shot I don't know how many Nazi's during the battle of the bulge in that war. He got a medal for it, but he never talked like he was some hero for saving his friends. Back then it was just what you did. Nowdays they'd want him on Oprah or some BS. I talked to him years later, when I was a grown man, and he was always sad about his friends, never talked about his heroism or his stupid medal. Nowdays, they'd want him for interviews and to be on TV and all that BS.

We're a superficial society now. Totally superficial. It's ridic. There's no comparison between football and "going to war" or "going to battle" and actual battle. There's not even a comparison between our pu**y wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and real wars like WWII. We've been stupified and pussyfied to the extreme. Nowdays, harsh words are considered very offensive.

Tillman knew what he was walking into, and if he didn't he should have. He died, like thousands and millions of other sons and daughters fighting for this country. Just because he was the media darling and gave up big bucks to fight doesn't make him more special than some poor family dude with nothing who also died in some desert in the middle of nowhere.

 

[TheHopToad]

Wow....listening to that audio, I thought for a minute that they were making a sequel to Patton.

"No bastard ever won a game by getting injured for his team. He won the game by making the other poor dumb bastard get injured for his team."

"You know, by God, I actually pity those poor bastards we're going up against. By God, I do. We're not just going to hit the bastards. We're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the wheels of our offense"

"The 49ers are the enemy. Wade into them. Spill their blood. Hit them in the head. When you put your hand into a bunch of goo that a moment before was your teammate's face, you'll know what to do."

"Now there's another thing I want you to remember. I don't want to get any messages saying that we are holding our position. We're not holding anything. Let the Niners do that. We are pressuring constantly and we're not interested in holding onto anything -- except the enemy. We're going to hold onto him by the nose, and we're gonna hit them in the head. We're gonna knock the hell out of them all the time, and we're gonna go through them like crap through a goose!"

"Now, there's one thing that you men will be able to say when you get back home, and you may thank me for it. Thirty years from now when you're sitting around your fireside with your grandson on your knee, and he asks you, "What did you do in the big playoff game" -- you won't have to say, "Well, I missed a tackle in San Francisco."

"Alright now you sons-of-******* (MF'ers), you know how I feel. I will be proud to lead you wonderful guys into battle anytime, anywhere. That's all."​

​

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

It's not as if the Saints players were handed guns or knives and asked to go kill someone, so I don't see how any criminal charges could be placed. Every defensive player in the NFL is paid/rewarded to hit other people -- regardless of seperate "bounties" placed amongst team-mates, which is obviously just extra motivation. Injuries are a part of football -- always will be -- and it's common practice in football to "go for the knees" or to "knock someone out". Bill Romanowski admitted to purposely breaking fingers of other players so he could strip the ball, that's football for you.

 

[desertdawg]

A punk is a punk, good riddens

 

[THESMEL]

Well

thats George C Scott - a fine actor portraying the General- but I would much rather face George C Scott and his fine way with words - Than General Patton and his Army.


Legally recognized good reasons for consent include; surgery, activities within the rules of a game (Mixed martial arts, wrestling, boxing, or contact sports), bodily adornment (R v Wilson), or horseplay (Jones and others). However, any activity outside the rules of the game is not legally recognized as a defense of consent
link for below


http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Assault+%26+Battery

Intent

Intent is an essential element of both offenses. Generally, it is only necessary for the defendant to have an intent to do the act that causes the harm. In other words, the act must be done voluntarily. Although an intent to harm the victim is likely to exist, it is not a required element of either offense. There is an exception to this rule for the attempted battery type of criminal assault. If a defendant who commits this crime does not have an intent to harm the victim, the individual cannot be guilty of the offense.
Defenses

Consent In almost all states, consent is a defense to civil assault and battery. Some jurisdictions hold that in the case of mutual combat, consent will not suffice and either party may sue the other. Jurisdictions also differ on the question of whether consent is a defense to criminal assault and battery.
Consent must be given voluntarily in order to constitute a defense. If it is obtained by Fraud or duress or is otherwise unlawful, it will not suffice. When an act exceeds the scope of the given consent, the defense is not available. A person who participates in a football game implies consent to a certain amount of physical contact; however, the individual is not deemed to consent to contact beyond what is commonly permitted in the sport.


Performance of Duty and Authority A person may use reasonable force when it becomes necessary in the course of performing a duty. A police officer, for example, may use force when apprehending a criminal. In some jurisdictions, private citizens may also use reasonable force to stop a crime being committed in their presence. Certain businesses, such as restaurants or nightclubs, are authorized to hire employees who may use reasonable force to remove persons who disturb other patrons. Court officers, such as judges, may order the removal of disruptive persons who interfere with their duties.
Persons with authority in certain relationships, such as parents or teachers, may use force as a disciplinary measure, provided they do not exceed the scope of their authority. Punishment may not be cruel or excessive.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Code_of_Conduct_(United_States_Military).jpg

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Wow....listening to that audio, I thought for a minute that they were making a sequel to Patton.

"No bastard ever won a game by getting injured for his team. He won the game by making the other poor dumb bastard get injured for his team."

"You know, by God, I actually pity those poor bastards we're going up against. By God, I do. We're not just going to hit the bastards. We're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the wheels of our offense"

"The 49ers are the enemy. Wade into them. Spill their blood. Hit them in the head. When you put your hand into a bunch of goo that a moment before was your teammate's face, you'll know what to do."

"Now there's another thing I want you to remember. I don't want to get any messages saying that we are holding our position. We're not holding anything. Let the Niners do that. We are pressuring constantly and we're not interested in holding onto anything -- except the enemy. We're going to hold onto him by the nose, and we're gonna hit them in the head. We're gonna knock the hell out of them all the time, and we're gonna go through them like crap through a goose!"

"Now, there's one thing that you men will be able to say when you get back home, and you may thank me for it. Thirty years from now when you're sitting around your fireside with your grandson on your knee, and he asks you, "What did you do in the big playoff game" -- you won't have to say, "Well, I missed a tackle in San Francisco."

"Alright now you sons-of-******* (MF'ers), you know how I feel. I will be proud to lead you wonderful guys into battle anytime, anywhere. That's all."​

​

 

[Cardiac]

Another perspective on the Williams audio.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/...-injuretheniners-audio-but-it-does-us-a-favor

When I was playing peewee football my uncle decided to give me a coaching lesson. He showed me how when playing O-line to go low on the DT. He showed me how to place my hand on the ground directly behind the DT's foot and then drive my shoulder into his knee.

He explained how this would injur my opponent and get him out of the game. The reason you do this is because his replacement won't be as good and now you've made it easier to have good game.

IIRC I was about 10 years old and simply appalled by his "coaching". That was my one and only session with my uncle and no I didn't use his advice. My uncle only made it to the small college level in his fb "career".

 

[Longcolts]

We all know that injuries happen in the NFL. It's that nature of the violence of the game. However there is a difference in injuring a play with hardnose play and then there is the intent of purposely injuring a player. That is what I find reprehensible. It's not the act, it's the intent that is wrong. And for the record correlating a game no matter how violent it is is nothing like war. Those of us that have experienced it know that well an fully.

 

[BigRedRage]

my paint wont work at work today so this is worse than normal but I still find it fun.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

However, you will hardly ever hear a coach tell his players to test a player's concussion, damage their ACL, and throw money at a player for intentionally injuring opposing players. That is beyond repugnant.

Despicable, disgusting, doesn't matter. The problem here is the bounty system, money. They have to prove that money changed hands. None of the audio that I've heard clearly shows this.

 

[JeffGollin]

It strikes me that ****-fighting is illegal just about everywhere in the US and that Michael Vick served time for involvement in dog-fighting - both activities being considered too barbaric to be legal.

How is it any different from putting 11 human beings on a field field and encouraging them to injure or maim other humans?

Should Williams be held to the same standard as Vick? Or an even higher standard since humans are involved?

Or (since you can't "grandfather" laws and sentencing) should it be illegal from this day forward for someone to be culpible in a conspiracy to injure or maim?

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Despicable, disgusting, doesn't matter. The problem here is the bounty system, money. They have to prove that money changed hands. None of the audio that I've heard clearly shows this.

This audio merely confirms the pattern of behaviour. You can 'bet' that the League has testimony that bounties were in fact paid. The suspensions and fines to players will attest to this evidence.