SF@ARI - Heroes and Goats

[kerouac9]

Earth to K9, earth to K9, come in K9. The Cards are VERY TOUGH to run against and Minter is an ILB.

Those two things are not necessarily correlated. Do you think that opponents just see Minter on the field and decide not to run the ball? I'm not sure how you put this together for a guy who has 10 total tackles this season.

 

[SO91]

Earth to K9, earth to K9, come in K9. The Cards are VERY TOUGH to run against and Minter is an ILB.

They've been a very good run defense with or without him. BTW, K9 is not the only poster disappointed with the production of our 2nd round pick.

 

[splitsecond]

[/B]

Parmele was involved in 1 snap. Is that really a fair criticism?

Yes, when it was a critical snap. Should have been Taylor.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Those two things are not necessarily correlated. Do you think that opponents just see Minter on the field and decide not to run the ball? I'm not sure how you put this together for a guy who has 10 total tackles this season.

That seems like decent production for a guy that "can't get on the field". It's 7th on the team and 2nd amongst LB's.

 

[82CardsGrad]

He is on the field when the situation calls for it. RB's have carried the ball 56 times against the Cards out of 190 plays, or 29%. I'm sure all those haven't been on 1st or 2nd down, which are the more likely running downs. I'm going to guess KM has been in the lineup for a large majority of those run plays(I guess I could be wrong but am not looking it up) and that's what his role is on this team. Solid against the run is his exact reason for seeing the field.

I don't know why people would expect him to be in on passing situations. He wasn't drafted for his coverage skills. Either way, it's been 3 games.

Honestly, I would be surprised if Minter is a starter on this team next season... and it wouldn't surprise me at all if he's not with this team at all in 2-3 years. His value is very limited and not starter worthy...

 

[kerouac9]

That seems like decent production for a guy that "can't get on the field". It's 7th on the team and 2nd amongst LB's.

1) Tackles are an unofficial stat.
2) Some of those include special teams, I would assume.
3) 10 tackles in 3 games (1 start) sounds like decent production from the 45th overall pick in the 2013 draft? Are you serious?

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

1) Tackles are an unofficial stat.
2) Some of those include special teams, I would assume.
3) 10 tackles in 3 games (1 start) sounds like decent production from the 45th overall pick in the 2013 draft? Are you serious?

Highlighted a key point for you. Which has been my take all along.

Plus, you keep harping on him being the 45th overall pick. Let's see if you need to alter your thinking about what to expect out of the 45th overall pick.
2012: Alshon Jeffery: very good player on his way to stardom
2011: Rahim Moore: solid player
2010: Zane Beadles: solid player
2009: Clint Stintim: terrible player
2008: Jordan Dizon: terrible player
2007: Dwayne Jarrett: terrible player
2006: Lendale White: terrible player
2005: Lofa Tatupu: excellent player
2004: Jake Grove: average player
2003: Bethel Johnson: terrible player

So in 10 years prior to Minter, the 45th pick has yielded 1 excellent player(Tatupu), 1 on his way to being excellent(Jeffery), 3 solid players, and 5 non-existent players. According to recent history, there's a better chance that he will be terrible than anything else. I'm willing to wait and see how it pans out.

 

[Chopper0080]

That seems like decent production for a guy that "can't get on the field". It's 7th on the team and 2nd amongst LB's.

Here is the breakdown.

In game one, Minter played 24 of 61 snaps (39.3%). No big deal, it was his first real game back, and the team wanted to ease him in. Bucannon, who most would say is taking his snaps, played 37 of 61 snaps (60.7%). Rivers attempts 36 passes, and the Chargers run the ball 24 times. Essentially, the Chargers ran the ball 40% of the time.

Game two. Minter has an increased role playing 34 of 72 snaps (47.2%). It makes sense, the team thinks he is healthy, and wants to see him in an expanded role. Bucannon's snaps decrease as he only plays 37 of 72 snaps. Manning attempts 39 passes, and the Giants run the ball 27 times. Giants ran the ball 40.9% of the time.

Game three. Minter's role reduces dramatically, playing only 19 of 64 snaps (29.7%) vs. a physical in division team missing it's two best TEs. Bucannon plays 43 of 64 snaps (67.2%) which is his season high. Kap attempts 37 passes, and the 49ers run the ball 24 times. 49ers ran the 39.1% of the time.

Teams are running the ball vs the Cards at an average of 40% (40, 40.9, 39.1) of the time, so actual rushing attempts aren't a factor.

With Davis and McDonald out, the athletic TE did not factor into the gameplan, and snap usage of Minter.

Essentially, MInter was eased in in game one, given more snaps in game two, and then had his lowest amount of snaps for the year in game 3 without any real difference in the % of time the opposing team ran the ball. Also in these games, Bucannon's snaps started higher, then decreased, and then elevated to his highest of the year. Minter is being beat out of snaps by a rookie SS who is playing ILB. That is a pretty bad sign.

 

[Chopper0080]

Highlighted a key point for you. Which has been my take all along.

Plus, you keep harping on him being the 45th overall pick. Let's see if you need to alter your thinking about what to expect out of the 45th overall pick.
2012: Alshon Jeffery: very good player on his way to stardom
2011: Rahim Moore: solid player
2010: Zane Beadles: solid player
2009: Clint Stintim: terrible player
2008: Jordan Dizon: terrible player
2007: Dwayne Jarrett: terrible player
2006: Lendale White: terrible player
2005: Lofa Tatupu: excellent player
2004: Jake Grove: average player
2003: Bethel Johnson: terrible player

So in 10 years prior to Minter, the 45th pick has yielded 1 excellent player(Tatupu), 1 on his way to being excellent(Jeffery), 3 solid players, and 5 non-existent players. According to recent history, there's a better chance that he will be terrible than anything else. I'm willing to wait and see how it pans out.

I expect their to be at least 45 good players in every draft, and that Keim can identify/take one of those with the 45th pick. I don't care what other GMs have done.

 

[kerouac9]

So in 10 years prior to Minter, the 45th pick has yielded 1 excellent player(Tatupu), 1 on his way to being excellent(Jeffery), 3 solid players, and 5 non-existent players. According to recent history, there's a better chance that he will be terrible than anything else. I'm willing to wait and see how it pans out.

Small sample size much? One pick for the last 10 years? Really?

Your better argument could be "Look at the guys who were drafted between when we traded the pick (Manti Te'o) and Minter and tell me who we should've gotten.

The even better argument would be that we should pretend we'd spent that 45th overall pick on Andre Ellington (taken later in the draft with a pick resultant from that trade) and Minter in the 6th, no one would complain.

Man, there were a lot better players available with that pick. What a miss.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I expect their to be at least 45 good players in every draft, and that Keim can identify/take one of those with the 45th pick. I don't care what other GMs have done.

That's pretty illogical seeing the number of busts that occur within the top 20 picks, much less at 45.

Using your expectations, Keim should never have a bust when picking within the top 45. I'd like to have the GM that application fits. Too bad that GM does not exist.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Small sample size much? One pick for the last 10 years? Really?

Your better argument could be "Look at the guys who were drafted between when we traded the pick (Manti Te'o) and Minter and tell me who we should've gotten.

The even better argument would be that we should pretend we'd spent that 45th overall pick on Andre Ellington (taken later in the draft with a pick resultant from that trade) and Minter in the 6th, no one would complain.

Man, there were a lot better players available with that pick. What a miss.

10 years for the NFL is a small sample size ? Your point makes absolutely zero sense to me. I wasn't using "what ifs" like you seem to be implying. These were the actual picks at 45, which Kevin Minter was.

 

[kerouac9]

10 years for the NFL is a small sample size ? Your point makes absolutely zero sense to me. I wasn't using "what ifs" like you seem to be implying. These were the actual picks at 45, which Kevin Minter was.

I guess that the logic of it is confused. Is there something magical about the #45 pick in the draft where only 10% turn out to be Pro Bowl quality players--er, I guess 20% if we're counting both Tatupu and Jeffrey--and "only" half of them turn out to be "solid" players or better? Of course not. I guess I understand your framing of the question so that it seems like the Cards didn't miss on a guy who seems pretty below-average when there were clearly better guys available, but it doesn't make logical sense unless you're going to argue that a team should never exercise the 45th pick in the NFL draft, because more likely than not those guys are going to be average or worse.

And was LenDale White really a "terrible" player? He had 1100 yards one season, and then 15 (!!) TDs the following season.

 

[Mulli]

There are a lot of misses. It happens. Not worth talking about when Cards are 3-0.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

K9 is going to take some lumps every time he names a goat after a victory. And I disagree with his goats too.

My goats of the game:

Fitz: That fumble could have cost us, but since it didn't you get a pass. Also, that 25 yard catch was nails.

Ted Larsen: Weakest OL of the day. Penalty could have been killer. I am not calling for Cooper to start yet because the unit is coming together nicely as a whole, but Larsen was the weak link.

Cro: You drop an easy pick 6 and then get hurt? C'mon man!

(Okay, that last one was a joke but he is my biggest concern coming out of this game right now)

Much more aligned with these Goats. Its almost like you watched the game

 

[82CardsGrad]

There are a lot of misses. It happens. Not worth talking about when Cards are 3-0.

This... Minter isn't worth the amount of posts he's generating. So BASK swung and missed... It happens and I never get into the hindsight/20-20 game. They seem to have connected, in some cases bigtime, way more than they miss!


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[ajcardfan]

This... Minter isn't worth the amount of posts he's generating. So BASK swung and missed... It happens and I never get into the hindsight/20-20 game. They seem to have connected, in some cases bigtime, way more than they miss!


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+1

It's almost like some Cards fans can't just be happy and have to put labels like "bust"on somebody.

Look, yeah, Minter is not going to the Pro Bowl as a LB. Yet, he has been far from horrible and plays hard in the packages Bowles puts him in. Good Lord, we've had way, way worse picks than Minter drafted higher than him. Yes, he is a role player, not a star, but damn it's not like he's doing anything wrong to deserve getting ragged on.

 

[crisper57]

If you are going to hate on Minter, then SK also deserves your admiration for the likes of John Brown. It evens out.

 

[kerouac9]

This... Minter isn't worth the amount of posts he's generating. So BASK swung and missed... It happens and I never get into the hindsight/20-20 game. They seem to have connected, in some cases bigtime, way more than they miss!


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I think that this is the problem. "Seem" doesn't actually enter into the reality.

Jonathan Cooper G North Carolina Not looking so good
Kevin Minter LB Louisiana State Not looking so good
Tyrann Mathieu DB Louisiana State Looking pretty good
Alex Okafor DE Texas Not looking so good
Earl Watford G James Madison Not looking so good
Stepfan Taylor RB Stanford Not looking so good
Ryan Swope WR Texas A&M Disaster
Andre Ellington RB Clemson Looking very good
D.C. Jefferson TE Rutgers Out of the NFL

2014's draft class is way, way too early to tell. Getting two starters out of a draft is really good, but not being able to get any quality depth out of a draft class is pretty brutal.

Good drafters get two starters and three depth players out of every class.

Also, if you're going to swing and miss, then you should be swinging for the fences. Missing on a guy like Minter is like bunting right to the pitcher.

 

[crisper57]

I disagree with Swope. Not a disaster! Dumpster fire!

 

[82CardsGrad]

I think that this is the problem. "Seem" doesn't actually enter into the reality.

Jonathan CooperGNorth Carolina Not looking so good
Kevin MinterLBLouisiana State Not looking so good
Tyrann MathieuDBLouisiana State Looking pretty good
Alex OkaforDETexas Not looking so good
Earl WatfordGJames Madison Not looking so good
Stepfan TaylorRBStanford Not looking so good
Ryan SwopeWRTexas A&M Disaster
Andre EllingtonRBClemson Looking very good
D.C. JeffersonTERutgers Out of the NFL

2014's draft class is way, way too early to tell. Getting two starters out of a draft is really good, but not being able to get any quality depth out of a draft class is pretty brutal.

Good drafters get two starters and three depth players out of every class.

Also, if you're going to swing and miss, then you should be swinging for the fences. Missing on a guy like Minter is like bunting right to the pitcher.

You left out Tony Jefferson. Way too early and not enough material to judge Cooper. Didn't they draft Massie? I'm fine with what they have done thus far. And when you toss in the FA's they've brought in, I'm really fine!


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[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Cardinals Traded out of 38th pick to drop and take Minter

So I will start at pick 38 and list rest of players taken after that point in 2nd rd:

(38) Manti Te'0
(39) Jets: Geno Smith
(40) 49ers (from Titans): Tank Carradine
(41) Bills: Robert Woods,
(42) Raiders (from Dolphins): Menelik Watson
(43) Buccaneers: Johnathan Banks
(44) Panthers: Kawaan Short
(46) Bills (from Rams): Kiko Alonso ***Way better than Minter.
(47) Cowboys: Gavin Escobar,
(48) Steelers: Le'Veon Bell
(49) Giants: Johnathan Hankins
(50) Bears: Jon Bostic
(51) Redskins: David Amerson
(52) Patriots (from Vikings): Jamie Collins
(53) Bengals: Margus Hunt
(54) Dolphins (from Colts): Jamar Taylor
(55) 49ers (from Packers): Vance McDonald
(56) Ravens (from Seahawks): Arthur Brown
(57) Texans: D.J. Swearinger
(58) Broncos: Montee Ball
(59) Patriots: Aaron Dobson
(60) Falcons: Robert Alford
(61) Packers (from 49ers): Eddie Lacy
(62) Seahawks (from Ravens): Christine Michael

 

[Shane]

You left out Tony Jefferson. Way too early and not enough material to judge Cooper. Didn't they draft Massie? I'm fine with what they have done thus far. And when you toss in the FA's they've brought in, I'm really fine!


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Graves drafted Massie

 

[slanidrac16]

Ahem....

Just a reminder we are 3-0.

*Stanton has not turned the ball over and at the same time showed his
toughness.
*He was critisized last week for not getting rid of the ball.
*He threw 2 perfect passes to JB and just missed another big play to the
other JB by inches.
* He has control in the huddle a seeming firm grasp of the offense.
* He is getting more and more confident....and so are his teammates.

The 49ers did not register a sack....HUGE!

We have not allowed a single point in the 4th quarter.

Bask has us at 10-2 in our last 12 games...10 AND 2!

Good Lord be happy. Enjoy the bye week.

 

[BW52]

I think that this is the problem. "Seem" doesn't actually enter into the reality.

Jonathan Cooper G North Carolina Not looking so good
Kevin Minter LB Louisiana State Not looking so good
Tyrann Mathieu DB Louisiana State Looking pretty good
Alex Okafor DE Texas Not looking so good
Earl Watford G James Madison Not looking so good
Stepfan Taylor RB Stanford Not looking so good
Ryan Swope WR Texas A&M Disaster
Andre Ellington RB Clemson Looking very good
D.C. Jefferson TE Rutgers Out of the NFL

2014's draft class is way, way too early to tell. Getting two starters out of a draft is really good, but not being able to get any quality depth out of a draft class is pretty brutal.

Good drafters get two starters and three depth players out of every class.

Also, if you're going to swing and miss, then you should be swinging for the fences. Missing on a guy like Minter is like bunting right to the pitcher.

Where did you get the stat that good drafters get 2 starters and 3 depth guys every draft?Immediate starters or starters in year 1 or year 2? Starter somewhere down the line?Who said this 2 starters 3 depth guys every draft?