Shipp to play more Sunday

[Shane]

I think the vast majority of Arrington's critics aren't ready to "cast him off as rubbish," but rather would have him develop under Green during spot duty (3rd down back) and at practice.

Also, I'm not a mod, but if I was you would have received a number of warnings and maybe a baning for personal attacks and language. It's ugly behavior and not welcomed on the board (as far as I'm concerned). SWD and Shane simply disagree with you. Take it down a notch.

 

[Pariah]

Nothing, but if he doesn't perform then the mob will light their torches.

I'd love to have Leinart myself, but hopefully it's pipe. I don't want him enough to endure a season that would have us with the number one pick.

I don't care if we have the 32nd pick. We should give up whatever it takes to get him, IMO.

 

[spanky1]

I don't care if we have the 32nd pick. We should give up whatever it takes to get him, IMO.

I do believe that he will be the next great QB.

 

[Shane]

I do believe that he will be the next great QB.

 

[Russ Smith]

It still doesnt matter in the NFL.

Russ could you look me in the eye and say that Arrington has even shown a glimmer of promise so far? Could you say he shown that trademark ability to break a frigging tackle or run by someone?

I could but again, to be fair, I watched the kid in college for 2 years everything you're saying you haven't seen, I saw over and over in college.

Has he done it in the NFL yet no, but until the OL starts doing its job I don't think there are a lot of RB's that would show it. If you watch the Raider game on the play where he goes left for 20+, he found the hole, hit it, and ran right through it and yeah he ran by people. IN fact he probably hit it too fast if he'd slowed slightly so he could have stayed in bounds, he might have scored.

He's never going to be like Ricky Williams I'll give SWD that, but WIlliams was a top 10 pick, JJ was #44 for a reason.

The reason I threw in Steven Jackson is I think we all agree Jackson is a good young RB and yet his YPC was substantially lower than JJ's in the same conference in the same general time period. Maybe he didn't have as good of an offensive line but the guy who played RB for them the next year did ok and he wasn't a pro prospect at all so their OL must have been ok.

I'm sure JJ is lacking in confidence right now, what I'm saying is that's not unusual for a rookie RB, especially given what the OL has done to date. If he's still struggling later in the year and the OL has improved, I'll be worried. Right now I'm not.

I was reading about Brown not long before the first Dolphin game, Saban said he's not in good enough shape to be a workhorse, he is not letting holes develop, he has to learn blitz pickup, it's pretty standard stuff for RB's even guys drafted much higher than JJ. The problem is we need JJ to be good right away given our other RB options.

 

[spanky1]

Way, way too early to push this panic button.

 

[Russ Smith]

Way, way too early to push this panic button.

I can certainly see SWD's point, I go on what I see and what I see is not very good so far. I just think with a RB it's hard to judge unless there's an occasional hole to run through. Nobody thought much of Priest Holmes a few years ago, Willie Parker was a backup in college and suddenly he's the toast of Pittsburgh, LT averaged only 3.6 YPC as a rookie, people say you either have it or you don't as a RB but the reality is that guys develop at different speeds.

College doesn't tell you everything but there's not that many kids who got 2000 yards in one season in a major conference and even fewer of them were busts. People said the same thing about LT when he came out, yeah but he played at TCU. Larry Johnson was supposed to be a bust(2000 yards 7.5 YPC at Penn State), for every Troy Davis there are 2-3 guys who did it and succeeded in the NFL. It's too early to assume JJ is the next Troy Davis.

 

[Russ Smith]

Calling Arrington supremely talented based upon what he did in college is silly. I could list a plethura of college backs with better overall stats than arrington that have been NFL busts.

I'm assuming you mean career numbers because there's only about 6-8 guys who've gained more in a single season and that includes names like Barry Sanders, Marcus Allen, Larry Johnson.

 

[Shane]

I'm assuming you mean career numbers because there's only about 6-8 guys who've gained more in a single season and that includes names like Barry Sanders, Marcus Allen, Larry Johnson.

Of course career #s. Guys that actaully have a division 1 track record of having great years for more than 1 year in college yet go on to be tremendous busts in teh NFL.

 

[justAndy]

i have to agree with the statement that college stats are USELESS as a tool for projecting how a guy will do in th Grownups League.
I watch college a bit and it is a CIRCUS of piss poor "tackling".

 

[Evil Ash]

I don't care if we have the 32nd pick. We should give up whatever it takes to get him, IMO.

We aren't getting him. We would have to have a bad year combined with the assumption that PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO TRADE DOWN!! Remember the year Vick came out and was considered an absolute #1? They traded down only within the top 5 so they could get what they want. Trading is a two way street they aren't gonna give him away for garbage picks. If we are picking in the middle of the 1st round (like we should be), its not gonna happen.

Then again I'd prefer to fix the Oline situation rather than obsessing about a position that won't matter IF NO ONE BLOCKS FOR HIM. Good Lord am I the only one here that realizes that we have more needs than QB (not to mention its not even close to the top of the priority list)?

 

[Redsz]

Good Lord am I the only one here that realizes that we have more needs than QB (not to mention its not even close to the top of the priority list)?

No Ash, you're not. Build your team, then draft the kid and put him in a postion to suceed. Atleast that's my belief.

I'm a real fan of what the Steelers have done with Ben Rothlisberger and what the Bills are in the process of doing with J.P Losman. Both teams have all the pieces in place for those to suceed.

We aren't anywhere near the class of ether yet. We have the defense and the recievers. But we need to fix the running game and the line before we can even think about getting a prospect in here.

 

[ajcardfan]

i have to agree with the statement that college stats are USELESS as a tool for projecting how a guy will do in th Grownups League.
I watch college a bit and it is a CIRCUS of piss poor "tackling".

USELESS...?????

I think the guys who play WELL in college have a much, much better track record than guys who play very little or poorly in college. I think the good college players have a much better track record in the NFL than the bad ones. It might sound crazy to guys like swd and you, but that is generally how it works.

The trick is knowing which good college players will be good in the NFL. You might as well flip a coin. Half the first rounders qualify as "busts" five years later.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Then again I'd prefer to fix the Oline situation rather than obsessing about a position that won't matter IF NO ONE BLOCKS FOR HIM. Good Lord am I the only one here that realizes that we have more needs than QB (not to mention its not even close to the top of the priority list)?

So you're suggesting that we build a flawless team and then put a green QB in there? Great, then we'll wait two more years waiting until said QB gets his feet wet. Sorry, but if QB is a need position (and I believe it is) we should try and fill it as soon as possible.

 

[Pariah]

We aren't getting him. We would have to have a bad year combined with the assumption that PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO TRADE DOWN!!

Why are you yelling at me, man? I want Leinhart, and I'm not afraid to say it even if it's not realistic. Relax, I'm not going to start calling teams about trades, so the Cardinals are safe.

 

[Pariah]

Then again I'd prefer to fix the Oline situation rather than obsessing about a position that won't matter IF NO ONE BLOCKS FOR HIM. Good Lord am I the only one here that realizes that we have more needs than QB (not to mention its not even close to the top of the priority list)?

Yeah, you're the only one.

Am I the only one that realizs we've been farting around with the QB position since Jake Plummer? Iam I the only one that realizes you can find a starting lineman in FA pretty easily?

Get off your horse.

 

[Evil Ash]

So you're suggesting that we build a flawless team and then put a green QB in there? Great, then we'll wait two more years waiting until said QB gets his feet wet. Sorry, but if QB is a need position (and I believe it is) we should try and fill it as soon as possible.

Not flawless but with just less flaws. There are 2 key things that have been proven time and again as absolutely neccessary evils in order to win in the NFL on a consistent basis: The ability to run the ball and to stop the run. If the last game was a precursor (and man do I hope it wasn't) we have failed at addressing these needs AGAIN.

It doesn't matter if we get Matt Leinart or any other fantastic QB prospect right now because if we don't fix those things we won't win. Its very easy to stop a one-dimensional offense ... Cardinal fans should know this better than anybody.

If in the next draft, there is a QB prospect that Green likes than I say fine take him but I do NOT in any way shape or form want him to ignore the real problems of the team just to get a QB that may fail at the next level. Besides the point the team is trying to win this year and next year trying to hype people into going into the new stadium ... getting a QB prospect does nothing to help us NOW

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Ahh good news, im back to post after a long night at one of south beachs fine bars......

Wow, im real surprised to see someone as credible as shane forem Vegas backs Swd' s claims of JJ's bust potential... Its nice to see the two cynics of the board have decided to band together and form a union of stupidity that would be hard to match. I don't mean to be so straight-forward, but i believe these "football fans" need to be put in their place.

Ok so college stats are mostly irrelevant when it comes to NFL production. Troy Davis, Danny Wuerffal (sp?), and Ron Dayne are all proof of this. I just think its ridiculous that some of you want to give up on a rookie after one game of action. This might be the most laughable quote in message board history "Russ, could you look me in the eye and say Arrington has even shown a glimmer of promise so far?"...Im not even going to get into the irony of this quote being that this is a message board, but i would rather attack the premise behind statment. Lets go down a list of backs who didn't look good initially, but have gone on to be good starters in the NFL:
1. Priest Holmes
2. Shaun Alexander
3. Stephen Jackson
4. Tiki Barber
5. Rudi Johnson
6. Larry Johnson
7. Dominak Davis
8. Julius Jones
9. Kevin Jones

All these backs had poor numbers initially, but when given the right combination of blocking and carries they eventually blossomed. Im sure many knuckleheads on the teams respective message boards were calling fot their heads as well, which just further goes to prove that fan sites are not exactly the place ot go for even handed and legitimate evaluations. We are ready to burn someone at the stake at the first sign of ineptitude. NewsFlash Shane and SWD: Not everyone is Lebron James. Its not often a player comes in and has a grip on all the complex nuances of the game. Its why rookies take time to develop. It was a couple years before Cmart anf EJames became the elite blitz picker uppers they currently are. JJ has show hesiation in getting to the hole at times, but i think that is more a factor of not having holes to hit due to defensive presence in the backfield. Even Cadillac Williams (whom i thought was one of the three best players in the draft, along with Antrell Rolle ) who also struggled in the preseason, had a big game against a defense that still hasn't proven they can stop the run. Think John Gruden is happy he did'nt base his starting RB decision on which back played better in the preseason?


All Im saying is give the player some time, because he has shown, that if given talent around him, he can produce on a high level. You two are just ridiculous for giving up on a player after one game. Alas, you are the fans that likely lambasted Fitz and Adrian Wilson as they didn't initially live up to their pre draft billing. Bryant Johnson and Calvin Pace are also examples of players who took time to develop. While your ignorance is tolerable on a message board as it leads to a good form for discussion, lets just say I'm glad you two geniuses are not running the Cardinals. With your personnel decisions we might be able to have our choice of Leinert or Reggie Bush at the number one pick next year. And maybe there will be exciting # 1 prospects in the 2007 Draft as well.......

JJ Arrington has not blown up in his first game but that is hardly reason to think he will ne be a good back. He is adjusting to the speed of the NFL (accounting for his dancing ) and will eventually learn to pick up a blitz. First big game JJ has, I will be here front and center, forcing you two to eat your words. And if JJ does turn out to be a bust my point still remains. Like D-Dogg points out, I'm not saying JJ is a sure fire stud, but his past production and physical skills at least warrent his playing him early and often to assess his actual talent. If you ran this team, you would be on of the first teams to give up this early on a second round pick. Especially with the speed, jukes, and good attitude this guy has. Both of you are nonsensical in your analysis, and are the type of fans that get off on their team losing every week so they can have something to gripe about. Well im over it. Im not ready to give up on Arrington (although i will agree that Shipp should get a fair share of the carries, at least initially) and I know DG isn't either. So just sit back, give it some time, and realize the error of rushing to judgement all the time...

And Pariah im sorry I offended you. However without going overboard, im going to take the liberty of addressing my posts in the adult manner that i see fit. My opinions, while strong at times, my opinions have merit and i refuse to temper them at the risk of belying my point.....I expect contempt in the rebuttal posts upcoming from SWD and Shane, but you don't see me crying over it...................

 

[Duckjake]

Yeah, you're the only one.

Am I the only one that realizs we've been farting around with the QB position since Jake Plummer? Iam I the only one that realizes you can find a starting lineman in FA pretty easily?
Get off your horse.

Unless you are the Cardinals scouts. They haven't been able to find one anywhere for about 10 years.

 

[CaptTurbo]

1) I just think its ridiculous that some of you want to give up on a rookie after one game of action.


2) Lets go down a list of backs who didn't look good initially, but have gone on to be good starters in the NFL:
1. Priest Holmes
2. Shaun Alexander
3. Stephen Jackson
4. Tiki Barber
5. Rudi Johnson
6. Larry Johnson
7. Dominak Davis
8. Julius Jones
9. Kevin Jones

3) Bryant Johnson and Calvin Pace are also examples of players who took time to develop. While your ignorance is tolerable on a message board as it leads to a good form for discussion, lets just say I'm glad you two geniuses are not running the Cardinals.


4)I will be here front and center, forcing you two to eat your words. And if JJ does turn out to be a bust my point still remains.

1)LOL you really think its only one game of action. My god I hate the american education system. Its no wonder we have been slipping from super power status.

2) Wow you named 9 RB's there. Im very impressed. Id list all the RB's that busted but I dont want to use up all of skkorps bandwidth...get it? Doubt it.

3) Johnson and Pace finally lived up to their potential? Its official stick to basketball because you know nothing about football.

4) Ah how nice. Even if he does turn out to be a bust we are wrong and you are right

 

[Shane]

Ahh good news, im back to post after a long night at one of south beachs fine bars......

Wow, im real surprised to see someone as credible as shane forem Vegas backs Swd' s claims of JJ's bust potential... Its nice to see the two cynics of the board have decided to band together and form a union of stupidity that would be hard to match. I don't mean to be so straight-forward, but i believe these "football fans" need to be put in their place.

Ok so college stats are mostly irrelevant when it comes to NFL production. Troy Davis, Danny Wuerffal (sp?), and Ron Dayne are all proof of this. I just think its ridiculous that some of you want to give up on a rookie after one game of action. This might be the most laughable quote in message board history "Russ, could you look me in the eye and say Arrington has even shown a glimmer of promise so far?"...Im not even going to get into the irony of this quote being that this is a message board, but i would rather attack the premise behind statment. Lets go down a list of backs who didn't look good initially, but have gone on to be good starters in the NFL:
1. Priest Holmes
2. Shaun Alexander
3. Stephen Jackson
4. Tiki Barber
5. Rudi Johnson
6. Larry Johnson
7. Dominak Davis
8. Julius Jones
9. Kevin Jones

All these backs had poor numbers initially, but when given the right combination of blocking and carries they eventually blossomed. Im sure many knuckleheads on the teams respective message boards were calling fot their heads as well, which just further goes to prove that fan sites are not exactly the place ot go for even handed and legitimate evaluations. We are ready to burn someone at the stake at the first sign of ineptitude. NewsFlash Shane and SWD: Not everyone is Lebron James. Its not often a player comes in and has a grip on all the complex nuances of the game. Its why rookies take time to develop. It was a couple years before Cmart anf EJames became the elite blitz picker uppers they currently are. JJ has show hesiation in getting to the hole at times, but i think that is more a factor of not having holes to hit due to defensive presence in the backfield. Even Cadillac Williams (whom i thought was one of the three best players in the draft, along with Antrell Rolle ) who also struggled in the preseason, had a big game against a defense that still hasn't proven they can stop the run. Think John Gruden is happy he did'nt base his starting RB decision on which back played better in the preseason?


All Im saying is give the player some time, because he has shown, that if given talent around him, he can produce on a high level. You two are just ridiculous for giving up on a player after one game. Alas, you are the fans that likely lambasted Fitz and Adrian Wilson as they didn't initially live up to their pre draft billing. Bryant Johnson and Calvin Pace are also examples of players who took time to develop. While your ignorance is tolerable on a message board as it leads to a good form for discussion, lets just say I'm glad you two geniuses are not running the Cardinals. With your personnel decisions we might be able to have our choice of Leinert or Reggie Bush at the number one pick next year. And maybe there will be exciting # 1 prospects in the 2007 Draft as well.......

JJ Arrington has not blown up in his first game but that is hardly reason to think he will ne be a good back. He is adjusting to the speed of the NFL (accounting for his dancing ) and will eventually learn to pick up a blitz. First big game JJ has, I will be here front and center, forcing you two to eat your words. And if JJ does turn out to be a bust my point still remains. Like D-Dogg points out, I'm not saying JJ is a sure fire stud, but his past production and physical skills at least warrent his playing him early and often to assess his actual talent. If you ran this team, you would be on of the first teams to give up this early on a second round pick. Especially with the speed, jukes, and good attitude this guy has. Both of you are nonsensical in your analysis, and are the type of fans that get off on their team losing every week so they can have something to gripe about. Well im over it. Im not ready to give up on Arrington (although i will agree that Shipp should get a fair share of the carries, at least initially) and I know DG isn't either. So just sit back, give it some time, and realize the error of rushing to judgement all the time...

And Pariah im sorry I offended you. However without going overboard, im going to take the liberty of addressing my posts in the adult manner that i see fit. My opinions, while strong at times, my opinions have merit and i refuse to temper them at the risk of belying my point.....I expect contempt in the rebuttal posts upcoming from SWD and Shane, but you don't see me crying over it...................

Your right I forgot you are the king of credibility around here. How dare we have an opinion differing of yours. You are the almighty RB talent evaluator that knows exactly who is going to go on to stardom. You can list RBs all day that didnt look good initially as you say. We could give a list just as long of more highly touted RBs than Arrington who didnt look good and are complete busts.

Once again I would like you to cite me one single time in the last 5 games including pre-season where Arrington has shown the so called jukes and speed you are referring to?

Oh and you obviously are misinformed and have no clue what goes on around this forum if you think I have ever lambasted Wilson or Fitz. But hey just continue showing your lack of knowledge. Keep riding the jock of a kid who has shown squat, yet has the hopes of this team on his shoulders thanks to Dennis Green. As Cardinal fans I hope your right. I hope he breaks out of this funk and goes on to be a HOF RB. Odds of that though? SLIM to NONE!

I really appreciate you taking the time to put me in my place though.

 

[Duckjake]

2) Lets go down a list of backs who didn't look good initially, but have gone on to be good starters in the NFL:
1. Priest Holmes
2. Shaun Alexander
3. Stephen Jackson
4. Tiki Barber
5. Rudi Johnson
6. Larry Johnson
7. Dominak Davis
8. Julius Jones
9. Kevin Jones

Shane and Swd, I'm surprised you let him get away with this misstatement.

Holmes had 0 attempts his first year in the league. His 2nd year he was the Ravens leading rusher with over 1000yds and scored 7 TD's.

Alexander in his first year averaged 4.9 ypc and scored 2 TD's and in his 2nd ran for 1,318 and 14TD's.

Jackson averaged 5.0ypc and scored 4td's his first season playing behind Marshall Faulk.

Davis ran for over a 1000 and scored 8td's his first season.

JJones averaged 4.2 ypc and scored 7 TD's.

Kevin Jones 1,133 yards 4.7ypc and 5 TD's.

I don't think that the above numbers would indicate that any of those guys didn't look good initially.

 

[Pariah]

And Pariah im sorry I offended you. However without going overboard, im going to take the liberty of addressing my posts in the adult manner that i see fit. My opinions, while strong at times, my opinions have merit and i refuse to temper them at the risk of belying my point.....I expect contempt in the rebuttal posts upcoming from SWD and Shane, but you don't see me crying over it...................

I'm not worried about SWD and Shane. They're big boys that have thick skin, and I'm not personally offended, either. The problem is that that type of confrontaional tone and personal attacks are not what this community is about.

You may do things as you "see fit" and "refuse" to temper your opinions, but this is a privatly owned and operated board, so you need to abide by the moderators' rules. Think of yourself as a guest in someone's home. If they ask you to take off your shoes, you probably should...even though you don't really want to...or you won't be invited back.

 

[AZCB34]

I am just glad Shipp is getting his chance. The dude has a nose for the endzone and with Stepanovich back, I expect Marcel to rush for about 150/3TDs.

 

[seesred]

With a center that is not in the league anymore , Ross playing like a third stringer I have to say that the great Barry would have had trouble running the ball last week. JJ needs time to develope. Pulling him after 8 carries proves nothing to nobody. This is true in all sports. The great Willie Mays couldn't hit when he first came up. Very few soon to be stars come out of the box at a very high level. This holds especially true in so called skill positions. Give the kid a chance. IMO JJ is going to be a very exciting successfull running back in this league. I guess time will tell. One thing is for sure the talent evaluators starting with Green believe in this kid. I's ay that's worth more than most of our opinions till proven otherwise.

GBR
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