Should a Point Guard lead his team in scoring?

[BC867]

Stephon Marbury is leading the Suns in scoring, and we're playing around .500 ball.

I've searched the Internet for archives of this year's box scores, and came up empty.

I'll bet that we have a winning record in games when Stephon is not among our 2 highest scorers, and a losing record when he is.

Does anyone know of a site where our box scores for this season to date can be found?
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Just as with KJ, when your Point Guard becomes your first option on offense, it carries many bad points. Easier to predict and defend. Other players standing around.

With the rare exceptions of some all-time greats like Oscar Robertson and Walt Frazier, high-scoring Point Guards don't win championships. Even Magic Johnson was the 3rd or 4th scoring option on his team.

It's great to have a Point Guard who can score. But not one who must score.

 

[SirStefan32]

I don't think that idealy, a point guards should lead the team in scoring. I don't mind if Marbury averages 21 point a game and Stoudemire or Marion 20 or 19, as long as it's not Stephon who has to lead the team night in and night out.

 

[Suns_fan69]

Originally posted by BC867

It's great to have a Point Guard who can score. But not one who must score.

But what happens if the guys he's passing to can't put the ball in the basket? Do we still expect him to keep feeding them even though they're throwing up bricks left right and center?

In theory I agree, the PG shouldn't lead the team in points but if you're PG is the best offensive creator than I'd trust him with the ball. If that means he has to shoot a lot in some games than that's fine with me.

 

[elindholm]

Michael Jordan might as well have been the point guard for the Bulls. He had the ball in his hands most of the time.

Kevin Johnson led the Suns in scoring on more than one occasion, I believe. Kidd has led both the Suns and the Nets in scoring during his career. Payton was usually Seattle's leading scorer.

Criticizing point guards who score is a cliche better suited to high school. When you're talking about amateurs, it is understood that they all have limited skills. If someone can pass and dribble pretty well but isn't a scorer, you make him a point guard. If someone is fairly large and rebounds well but can't shoot, you make him a center.

In the NBA, all star players can score, with maybe an isolated exception here and there like Ben Wallace. Deciding that someone should ignore his scoring ability just because he happens to be the "point guard" is narrow, unsophisticated thinking.

 

[BC867]

Originally posted by elindholm
Deciding that someone should ignore his scoring ability just because he happens to be the "point guard" is narrow, unsophisticated thinking.

Ouch! By the way, I didn't say he should ignore his scoring ability.

I said, "When your Point Guard becomes your first option on offense, it carries many bad points. Easier to predict and defend. Other players standing around."

I'd still like to see our record this year when Stephon is 1st or 2nd in scoring vs. when his assists outnumber his field goals. That would take this topic from opinion to fact.

 

[elindholm]

I'd still like to see our record this year when Stephon is 1st or 2nd in scoring vs. when his assists outnumber his field goals. That would take this topic from opinion to fact.

No it wouldn't. Correlation versus causality. When Marbury doesn't lead the team in scoring, it might be because someone else is making shots -- not because Marbury's "mentality" is different.

 

[slinslin]

Originally posted by BC867


I've searched the Internet for archives of this year's box scores, and came up empty.

Please??

Ever tried www.nba.com ?

 

[elindholm]

Or espn.com, or cnnsi.com, or ...

 

[jbeecham]

I'll look at the stats for Marbury, starting with most recent games.

Orlando: 14pts, 2nd in scoring, 11 assists, Win (7 in double figures)
Chicago: 10pts, 6th in scoring, 12 assists, Win (6 in double figures)
Detroit: 19pts, tied for 1st in scoring, 5 assists, Loss (4 in double figures)
Houston: 33pts, 1st in scoring, 6 assists, Loss (4 in double figures)
Atlanta: 22pts, tied for 1st, 6 assists, Loss (3 in double figures)
Golden State: 22pts, tied for 1st, 8 assists, Win (4 in double figures)
Memphis: 16 pts, 3rd in scoring, 9 assists, Win (5 in double figures)
Utah: 9pts, 4th in scoring, 6 assists, Loss (3 in double figures)
Lakers: 26pts, 1st in scoring, 11 assists, Loss (5 in double figures)
Cleveland: 24pts, 2nd in scoring, 7 assists, Win (3 in double figures)
SA: 24pts, 1st in scoring, 6 assists, Loss (4 in double figures)

So overall I really don't see any correlation between Marbury scoring and the Suns winning or losing (at least so far this season). I thought it might have something to do with the rest of the teams scoring so I posted how many people where in double figures each game. In almost all of our losses we had 4 or less people in double figures (except the Lakers game). Still we were competitive in all but the Utah game so maybe if a few other people had made more shots then we would have won them.

 

[matt_whitlock]

There's so many variables that come into play. You can't just say, "a point guard should not be a team's main scoring option" and accept it to be an absolute.

What if you put Stephon Marbury on a team of Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman, my grandmother, and Steve Kerr? Then, wouldn't you need Marbury to be the main scoring option? That way, when he draws the double team, he could kick it out to Steve Kerr or grandma spotting up, and when steph took it to the basket, it'd leave Rodman and Wallace to hound the offensive glass - the thing they do best.

Or what if he was on a team with Shaq, or Tim Duncan? Then he'd have to dump it downlow.

Of course, the reality of this conversation is, what if Marbury was on a team with Joe Johnson, Shawn Marion, Amare Stoudemire, Penny Hardaway, Jake Voskhul, Jahidi White, Zarko Carbakapa, Scott Williams, Leandro Barbosa and Tom Gugliota?

It alls down to the fact that guys simply have not been making shots on this team so far this year. Before the last two games, if Marbury didnt' score, or create opportunites where he basically does everything but put the ball in the basket for everyone else, nobody was going to score. Shawn Marion's shooting has been abominable, Joe Johnson has been all over the place, Penny Hardaway has been all over the bench, sharp-shooter Casey Jacobsen can't shoot, Amare isn't quite ready to be the team's go-to guy, and Scott Williams going 5-5 from the field is something this team just can't count on. So, if Marbury isn't our scoring leader, who could be?

Right now, Steph is the only guy who can score the ball on a consistent basis. Everybody else shoots jumpers, which are inconsistent; Marbury is the only guy who can force his way to the basket when things aren't going his way. Great teams need great go-to guys, and as of right now, if by nothing else than by default, Stephon is ours. He has a very tough job though, because he can't just dribble the ball down the court and shoot it everytime. He has to get everybody else on this team going, while still scoring his points. That's not easy, even though he can make it look like that sometimes.

One thing you can be sure of is that Marbury isn't selfish. If he is shooting too much, it has nothing to do with statistics. One thing I really love is watching him win - he loves it, and you can just see it on his face. When guys aren't scoring, he tends to force the issue, over-dribble, etc, but that's not really his fault.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Point guards who led their teams in scoring:

Kevin Johnson
Magic Johnson
Isiah Thomas

Pretty decent group.

The question is not how much he scores but rather does he distribute the ball and is he a good floor general.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Suns will win or lose based more on Shawn Marion then on Stephon Marbury. When Marion is off, the Suns really struggle.

I believe that when Marbury pushes the most, it is when Marion is really struggling.

In fact, Hopefully Zarko will eliminate that problem. He gives us a legit option at the 3 when Marion is having an off game.

 

[DevonCardsFan]

Originally posted by Chris_Sanders
Suns will win or lose based more on Shawn Marion then on Stephon Marbury. When Marion is off, the Suns really struggle.

I believe that when Marbury pushes the most, it is when Marion is really struggling.

In fact, Hopefully Zarko will eliminate that problem. He gives us a legit option at the 3 when Marion is having an off game.

Amare willend up being the go to guy after we extend him,if this team stays together for several seasons the suns willbe a force,betweeen amare,Marbury and Marion,they willlight it up

 

[BC867]

Originally posted by matt_whitlock
There's so many variables that come into play. You can't just say, "a point guard should not be a team's main scoring option" and accept it to be an absolute.

I appreciate your response.

A week or so ago, I heard a radio commentator refer to Suns opponents clogging up the middle, keeping Marbury from driving and dishing off.

And I remember KJ driving the lane late in the fourth quarter many times . . . and having his shot blocked with the game on the line.

Both moves became too predictable. And too narrow for the team's success. I'm not blaming Steph. It's really a reflection on the Coach.

 

[BC867]

Re: Re: Should a Point Guard lead his team in scoring?

Originally posted by slinslin
Please??

Ever tried www.nba.com ?

I couldn't find box scores older than two weeks ago on the 4 or 5 sites I checked.

Specifically, what url did you have in mind?

 

[George O'Brien]

Look under "schedule" which shows the results of every game played this year with links to the box score.

Should the point guard score the most? If the scoring comes at the expense of assists, then the answer is "no". If the assists level is high and the point guard is not wasting time dribbling around for 10=15 seconds, then "sure".

It is not relevant to compare Marbury to KJ or other point guards that played under the old "illegal defense" rules. Isolation plays were the norm and a PG that could break down his opposite number was always a huge advantage.

With the new zone defenses, the PG will not be able to run isolation plays and so the scoring is more likely to come from jumpers. For some players that is fine, for others...

 

[BC867]

Originally posted by jbeecham
I'll look at the stats for Marbury, starting with most recent games.

Orlando: 14pts, 2nd in scoring, 11 assists, Win (7 in double figures)
Chicago: 10pts, 6th in scoring, 12 assists, Win (6 in double figures)
Detroit: 19pts, tied for 1st in scoring, 5 assists, Loss (4 in double figures)
Houston: 33pts, 1st in scoring, 6 assists, Loss (4 in double figures)
Atlanta: 22pts, tied for 1st, 6 assists, Loss (3 in double figures)
Golden State: 22pts, tied for 1st, 8 assists, Win (4 in double figures)
Memphis: 16 pts, 3rd in scoring, 9 assists, Win (5 in double figures)
Utah: 9pts, 4th in scoring, 6 assists, Loss (3 in double figures)
Lakers: 26pts, 1st in scoring, 11 assists, Loss (5 in double figures)
Cleveland: 24pts, 2nd in scoring, 7 assists, Win (3 in double figures)
SA: 24pts, 1st in scoring, 6 assists, Loss (4 in double figures)

So overall I really don't see any correlation between Marbury scoring and the Suns winning or losing (at least so far this season).

But when you group them, there is a correlation.

In 6 of our first 11 games, Stephon was our leading scorer. In those games, our record was 1-5. Without seeing the stats, it seemed like that was the case.

That's why I brought it up. That's why I believe that our Point Guard leading the team in scoring is not a good thing.

 

[arthurracoon]

Originally posted by BC867
But when you group them, there is a correlation.

In 6 of our first 11 games, Stephon was our leading scorer. In those games, our record was 1-5. Without seeing the stats, it seemed like that was the case.

That's why I brought it up. That's why I believe that our Point Guard leading the team in scoring is not a good thing.

Actually, I disagree.

I don't care if Marbury led this team in scoring every night.

As long as there are 4-5+ players in double figures and Stephon has 10+ assists a game, I am fine. That would just mean we would be scoring over 100 points constantly.

 

[elindholm]

Half of Marbury's ten assists against Miami were to big men wide open for dunks. Was he failing to pass earlier in the season when he had big men wide open for dunks? Of course not. He wasn't making those passes because the option wasn't there.

When people move without the ball, Marbury can find them, and then he doesn't have to score as much. No point guard in the world can create offense for a bunch of statues.

 

[cly2tw]

Originally posted by elindholm
No point guard in the world can create offense for a bunch of statues.

Just take a moment and visualize that!

 

[George O'Brien]

Marbury or the offense?

Was Marbury taking all those shots because no one was moving? Or was not one moving because they were waiting for Marbury to get into the lane and "make something happen"?

Was the situation where Marbury would dribble around for 15 seconds and then shoot a contested three because of selfishness by Marbury, a coaching failure, or a failure of the players to do what they were supposed to do?