Should Ayton be Traded?

[Hoop Head]

How do you know? Our whole bench is brand new. Do you know if KBD is durable? Yuta is still playing on an ankle sprain, does that make him not durable? How about Eubanks? Goodwin?

I'm curious to know how you are able to deem any of the new guys (outside of the well known KD and Beal) as not durable.

Lets see, Yuta hasn't played more than 58 games in a season and in 5 years has played 179 games. That isn't a lot. Bates-Diop has played 230 games in 5 years, maxing out at 67 games in a single season last year. Would you say either are durable? I wouldn't. Re-read my post, I said no one on our team can be called durable and you're now splitting hairs. Tell me who deserves that label and why. I'm open to listen.

I'm basing my take on information available as far as games played. No one has has been a steady contributor who plays at least 85% (70+ games) or more of the games in a season, which I'd say 85% of a season is the minimum for being considered durable. Tell me what you consider durable, please. I'd love to hear how or why you think they are.

 

[Chaplin]

Lets see, Yuta hasn't played more than 58 games in a season and in 5 years has played 179 games. That isn't a lot. Bates-Diop has played 230 games in 5 years, maxing out at 67 games in a single season last year. Would you say either are durable? I wouldn't. Re-read my post, I said no one on our team can be called durable and you're now splitting hairs. Tell me who deserves that label and why. I'm open to listen.

I'm basing my take on information available as far as games played. No one has has been a steady contributor who plays at least 85% (70+ games) or more of the games in a season, which I'd say 85% of a season is the minimum for being considered durable. Tell me what you consider durable, please. I'd love to hear how or why you think they are.

What are the circumstances? You seem to just throw numbers out with no consideration for context. Early in their careers, were they ever in the G-League? Were they end of the bench guys that got DNPs? You can't just throw numbers out with no context.

 

[Covert Rain]

Lets see, Yuta hasn't played more than 58 games in a season and in 5 years has played 179 games. That isn't a lot. Bates-Diop has played 230 games in 5 years, maxing out at 67 games in a single season last year. Would you say either are durable? I wouldn't. Re-read my post, I said no one on our team can be called durable and you're now splitting hairs. Tell me who deserves that label and why. I'm open to listen.

I'm basing my take on information available as far as games played. No one has has been a steady contributor who plays at least 85% (70+ games) or more of the games in a season, which I'd say 85% of a season is the minimum for being considered durable. Tell me what you consider durable, please. I'd love to hear how or why you think they are.

Number of games played doesn't just include injury. So you can't use that as measuring stick at all. Were they out of the regular rotation for any period? Also, your "maxing out" numbers are not much of a concern either. In 2022 the average NBA player missed 22 games or played 60 games. Last year was a bit better and the average NBA player played in 64 games. The top 28 players missed an average of 28 games last season or played 54 games. Yuta is right around average and Bates-Diop is above average for the NBA.

I would say unless you have a breakdown by player why they didn't play? I don't see either as less durable verses the average NBA player. However, if I knew many more details around each player that might be different. I have not looked at the specifics of either player.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Lets see, Yuta hasn't played more than 58 games in a season and in 5 years has played 179 games. That isn't a lot. Bates-Diop has played 230 games in 5 years, maxing out at 67 games in a single season last year. Would you say either are durable? I wouldn't. Re-read my post, I said no one on our team can be called durable and you're now splitting hairs. Tell me who deserves that label and why. I'm open to listen.

I'm basing my take on information available as far as games played. No one has has been a steady contributor who plays at least 85% (70+ games) or more of the games in a season, which I'd say 85% of a season is the minimum for being considered durable. Tell me what you consider durable, please. I'd love to hear how or why you think they are.

I'm not sure how much importance those numbers represent considering the stage of their careers. And keep in mind that those years include the two Covid shortened seasons and some of those guys came from teams that didn't even get a chance to play the bubble games. I'd be more interested in learning how many games they were physically unable to play.

 

[Covert Rain]

While we are on the subject. Wow....the NBA is definitely changed. For example in the 2002-2003 season the average NBA player played in 79.2 games. In the 2022-2023 season it was 64 games. That's almost a 15 game swing with today's NBA players. If you single out the top 30 players which is even a worse average.

I wonder what is contributing to that? Keeping in mind that today's NBA is considered less "tough" and more finesse. Babying players? Being overly cautious about keeping players healthy because of salary? Increased minutes? Not sure what would cause such a swing.

​

 

[AzStevenCal]

While we are on the subject. Wow....the NBA is definitely changed. For example in the 2002-2003 season the average NBA player played in 79.2 games. In the 2022-2023 season it was 64 games. That's almost a 15 game swing with today's NBA players. If you single out the top 30 players which is even a worse average.

I wonder what is contributing to that? Keeping in mind that today's NBA is considered less "tough" and more finesse. Babying players? Being overly cautious about keeping players healthy because of salary? Increased minutes? Not sure what would cause such a swing.

​

I suspect that adding extra games to the early rounds has a lot to do with why the better players are missing even more time. As I recall, they went to 7 games for all rounds in 2003. Years of playing that much basketball has to take it's toll. Just look at the Spurs when they were at their best, you could count on a flameout every other season as their stars recovered from too much basketball in the intervening years. I'm sure that's why Pop defied the league and started resting key players early in the season.

And then there's increased international play across the league. So, just too much basketball for the human body.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think you try to build the best rotation you can and then you fill out the roster with practice players, young projects and cheerleaders. We did that. Maybe. And then again, maybe not. We'll see.

I look at it differently. The priority on an NBA roster should be talent and the ability to contribute.

Practice players and cheerleaders should be among that group, not separate.

 

[Mainstreet]

While we are on the subject. Wow....the NBA is definitely changed. For example in the 2002-2003 season the average NBA player played in 79.2 games. In the 2022-2023 season it was 64 games. That's almost a 15 game swing with today's NBA players. If you single out the top 30 players which is even a worse average.

I wonder what is contributing to that? Keeping in mind that today's NBA is considered less "tough" and more finesse. Babying players? Being overly cautious about keeping players healthy because of salary? Increased minutes? Not sure what would cause such a swing.

​

Are these regular season games. Do you have a link?

 

[AzStevenCal]

I look at it differently. The priority on an NBA roster should be talent and the ability to contribute.

Practice players and cheerleaders should be among that group, not separate.

I really can't follow this. I'll bow out.

 

[Hoop Head]

What are the circumstances? You seem to just throw numbers out with no consideration for context. Early in their careers, were they ever in the G-League? Were they end of the bench guys that got DNPs? You can't just throw numbers out with no context.

You tell me the circumstances. I laid out my case, you now want me to prove my own point of view wrong? Come on, Chap, youre smarter than that. We need one of those guys to be the 5th starter and you question why the talking heads question our depth? Our depth has no experience. Either they aren't durable or they're projects, essentially. So we don't have proven depth.

This is becoming insanity here. Lets dog pile on the person who dares have a differing opinion. I said my piece and backed it up with the data available. Either those guys aren't durable or good enough to be steady rotation players and that doesn't concern you? Fine, but it concerns me. I'm not wrong for thinking it either. They may prove me wrong during the regular season and playoffs but until they do, I don't see any poster attempting to provide any concrete data that says my concerns are unfounded.

 

[Chaplin]

You tell me the circumstances. I laid out my case, you now want me to prove my own point of view wrong? Come on, Chap, youre smarter than that. We need one of those guys to be the 5th starter and you question why the talking heads question our depth? Our depth has no experience. Either they aren't durable or they're projects, essentially. So we don't have proven depth.

This is becoming insanity here. Lets dog pile on the person who dares have a differing opinion. I said my piece and backed it up with the data available. Either those guys aren't durable or good enough to be steady rotation players and that doesn't concern you? Fine, but it concerns me. I'm not wrong for thinking it either. They may prove me wrong during the regular season and playoffs but until they do, I don't see any poster attempting to provide any concrete data that says my concerns are unfounded.

You make the claim, it's up to you to prove it, and just throwing out numbers with no context doesn't prove it. If you're not open to doing it, then this conversation is over. Good day sir.

 

[Hoop Head]

I really can't follow this. I'll bow out.

I think what Mainstreet is saying that you can find guys who are both cheerleaders and contributors, like Javale McGee and Frank were for the Suns. It shouldn't be either or. Ish isn't much of a contributor, hes a cheerleader occupying a roster spot. Aaron Holiday is another example of a good bench guy who seemed to be well liked and quality contributor when he played but also was a good cheerleader. Talent should always win out.

 

[Hoop Head]

You make the claim, it's up to you to prove it, and just throwing out numbers with no context doesn't prove it. If you're not open to doing it, then this conversation is over. Good day sir.

Prove the numbers are false. By your own admission they either didn't play or were injured. Good players aren't generally healthy scratches in over 30% of games a season, right? I think we can agree on that. So why shouldn't I question what they can contribute? Either they aren't durable or aren't good enough to be regular rotation players.

I backed up my claim, you didn't like how I did but that doesn't mean I didn't provide any further information to prove my initial point you took exception to. You just want to argue and say I'm wrong and you're right without ever explaining how your POV makes sense.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think you try to build the best rotation you can and then you fill out the roster with practice players, young projects and cheerleaders. We did that. Maybe. And then again, maybe not. We'll see.

I really can't follow this. I'll bow out.

I suggest you talk to the writer.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think what Mainstreet is saying that you can find guys who are both cheerleaders and contributors, like Javale McGee and Frank were for the Suns. It shouldn't be either or. Ish isn't much of a contributor, hes a cheerleader occupying a roster spot. Aaron Holiday is another example of a good bench guy who seemed to be well liked and quality contributor when he played but also was a good cheerleader. Talent should always win out.

Of course you can but I thought that was so obvious that it wasn't a point of contention. My point is that you don't have a key player sitting in that 15th spot even though clearly that guy would be the better player. You just don't build "teams" that way, it's a recipe for locker room hell.

Keep Cam Payne if you plan to use him as part of your rotation, if you don't, you need to send him packing. You can have value at the 15th spot but that's someone that can fill in as the 9th or 10th man, not someone that's good enough to start. We got burned last year because we had to use guys as starters and 6th and 7th men that had no business being in the rotation. You don't solve that by parking a rotation player at the end of the bench knowing he might not see the court for days and weeks at a time.

 

[Mainstreet]

Of course you can but I thought that was so obvious that it wasn't a point of contention. My point is that you don't have a key player sitting in that 15th spot even though clearly that guy would be the better player. You just don't build "teams" that way, it's a recipe for locker room hell.

Keep Cam Payne if you plan to use him as part of your rotation, if you don't, you need to send him packing. You can have value at the 15th spot but that's someone that can fill in as the 9th or 10th man, not someone that's good enough to start. We got burned last year because we had to use guys as starters and 6th and 7th men that had no business being in the rotation. You don't solve that by parking a rotation player at the end of the bench knowing he might not see the court for days and weeks at a time.

So Cam Payne was good enough to start and the Suns trade him for a second round pick that will likely never convey?

I don't understand this logic unless it comes back to saving $26 million dollars.

The Suns got burned because they didn't have quality rotation players last season in the playoffs after the trade for Durant and a suspect 5th starter.

 

[Chaplin]

So Cam Payne was good enough to start and the Suns trade him for a second round pick that will likely never convey?

I don't understand this logic unless it comes back to saving $26 million dollars.

The Suns got burned because they didn't have quality rotation players last season after the trade for Durant and a suspect 5th starter.

There is the fallacy. ANY player can start in an emergency, but no, Cam Payne was NOT good enough to start on a consistent basis.

 

[Mainstreet]

There is the fallacy. ANY player can start in an emergency, but no, Cam Payne was NOT good enough to start on a consistent basis.

Cam Payne was a backup point guard capable of starting in a pinch, as evidenced by his years with the Suns.

 

[Covert Rain]

You make the claim, it's up to you to prove it, and just throwing out numbers with no context doesn't prove it. If you're not open to doing it, then this conversation is over. Good day sir.

This. If you make a claim it's up to you to back it up. Not the other way around.

 

[Covert Rain]

Are these regular season games. Do you have a link?

I got them from multiple links. Why wouldn't they be regular season? Here is one I still have up. When I get off my calls I will try and find the articles I got them from.

NBA stars missed an average of 28 games

Why are stars not playing?

www.truehoop.com

 

[Mainstreet]

I got them from multiple links. Why wouldn't they be regular season? Here is one I still have up. When I get off my calls I will try and find the articles I got them from.

NBA stars missed an average of 28 games

Why are stars not playing?

www.truehoop.com

Thanks. I thought it could possibly include playoff games but that wouldn't be a fair comparison that would include all NBA players.

 

[Covert Rain]

Thanks. I thought it could possibly include playoff games but that wouldn't be a fair comparison that would include all NBA players.

I initially found this but then found the link: It's what I will try and find again.

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[Mainstreet]

I initially found this but then found the link: It's what I will try and find again.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

Okay, it's more understandable since they are only talking about All-Stars.

 

[Mainstreet]

Bottom line you can't throw numbers out there without context and say they are not "durable". It appear Yuta and Diopp are not outliers in terms of durability and the average NBA player.

Are you mixing All-Stars with other NBA players in terms of durability?

 

[Covert Rain]

Bottom line you can't throw numbers out there without context and say they are not "durable". It appear Yuta and Diopp are not outliers in terms of durability and the average NBA player. I have seen no comparison to the overall NBA to support that they are less durable. Happy to see info the other way. Just couldn't find anything to support that with the little time I had this morning. Using the numbers I found, AVERAGE NBA PLAYER, it appears they are within that range.