Should Ayton be Traded?

[Mainstreet]

I don't think he deserves the hate or negativity he sometimes gets here either but that doesn't mean I want to keep him in a key role. AFAIC he's shown that he isn't capable of being the number 2 PG because he's just too injury prone. When he's healthy and up to speed he might be the best backup PG in the game and he's on a very reasonable contract for that level of responsibility. But he's frequently not "up to speed" and with injury prone stars on the roster, keeping one more seems unnecessarily risky to me.

I hope everything works out well, but I think not keeping Cam Payne was even more risky.

I still remember him starting two games in the 2021 playoffs against the Clippers with Chris Paul out, both resulting in wins.

Cam Payne was capable of starting, a quality that can't be overlooked. The link below is from the 2022-23 season.

Bottom line, I understand the money situation, but a lot of players have injury issues.

https://www.si.com/nba/suns/analysis/phoenix-suns-point-guard-cameron-payne-shining-in-starting-role

 

[Chaplin]

You can’t pick and choose a handful of games and use that to describe the whole player. Fact is that he was not good far more than he was good.

I loved him and wouldn’t mind keeping him, but not keeping him isn’t going to make any difference on how I approach this season. Freaking out about our lack of a third string point guard is ridiculous. Saban Lee is perfectly capable of being the third and at a FRACTION of the cost.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I hope everything works out well, but I think not keeping Cam Payne was even more risky.

I still remember him starting two games in the 2021 playoffs against the Clippers with Chris Paul out, both resulting in wins.

Cam Payne was capable of starting, a quality that can't be overlooked. The link below is from the 2022-23 season.

Bottom line, I understand the money situation, but a lot of players have injury issues.

https://www.si.com/nba/suns/analysis/phoenix-suns-point-guard-cameron-payne-shining-in-starting-role

I agree there's some risk letting him go but no more than there would be by keeping him, IMO. He's been a team player for us but would he still be if he was sitting on the end of the bench almost every night instead of playing? I'm sure he thinks he has a decent contract in his future if he can stay healthy and play like he did for us in the bubble but if he were to be healthy I don't see him beating out Booker, Beal or Gordon for PG minutes.

 

[Mainstreet]

I agree there's some risk letting him go but no more than there would be by keeping him, IMO. He's been a team player for us but would he still be if he was sitting on the end of the bench almost every night instead of playing? I'm sure he thinks he has a decent contract in his future if he can stay healthy and play like he did for us in the bubble but if he were to be healthy I don't see him beating out Booker, Beal or Gordon for PG minutes.

I think our differences in how we view basketball is mostly about depth. I want all the good candy in case I lose some.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think our differences in how we view basketball is mostly about depth. I want all the good candy in case I lose some.

I want it too. Tell me that he'd have stayed healthy and happy and I'd be a happy camper keeping him. I just don't know how realistic it is to have a guy that good taking up a spot outside the rotation. You can expect a minimum dollar/minimum talent player such as Ish to thrive in that role, I have my doubts about it working with Cam.

And like I've said before, I'm pretty confident that a point will come during the season where we'll really wish we still had the bubble version of Cam Payne. But we've spent a good part of the past two seasons wishing for that same thing.

 

[Mainstreet]

I want it too. Tell me that he'd have stayed healthy and happy and I'd be a happy camper keeping him. I just don't know how realistic it is to have a guy that good taking up a spot outside the rotation. You can expect a minimum dollar/minimum talent player such as Ish to thrive in that role, I have my doubts about it working with Cam.

And like I've said before, I'm pretty confident that a point will come during the season where we'll really wish we still had the bubble version of Cam Payne. But we've spent a good part of the past two seasons wishing for that same thing.

Well, you already mentioned the player I would have waived or signed to a two-way contract, so the Suns could have kept Cam Payne.

Ish shot .370% from the field last season.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Well, you already mentioned the player I would have waived or signed to a two-way contract, so the Suns could have kept Cam Payne.

Ish shot .370% fron the field last season.

Purely from a basketball standpoint I certainly wouldn't argue for Ish over Cam. I just think there's more to consider. Still, had we let Ish go and kept Cam I'd have been fine with it. Not sure Gordon would have come here though if he'd thought we were keeping Cam.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It's all good until it's not. Are you feeling good if Ayton or Eubanks get injured?

The Suns are mostly a finesse team upfront except at center and Ayton has his detractors.

I'm not counting on Metu, Bol Bol, or Azubuike (TW) to be that guy. Personally, I like depth at forward/ center.

Again, I'd be for the Suns adding FC Usman Garuba on a two-way contract if this were an option.

Garuba would never get off the bench behind metu and azubuike.

 

[Mainstreet]

Purely from a basketball standpoint I certainly wouldn't argue for Ish over Cam. I just think there's more to consider. Still, had we let Ish go and kept Cam I'd have been fine with it. Not sure Gordon would have come here though if he'd thought we were keeping Cam.

I don't believe it would have impacted the Eric Gordon signing. He signed with the Suns on or about July 6th.

Cam Payne wasn't traded until about July 16th.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't believe it would have impacted the Eric Gordon signing. He signed with the Suns on or about July 6th.

Cam Payne wasn't traded until about July 16th.

Yeah, I know the order it happened in but I'm confident that Gordon's agent knew what was going on. I don't think we sell him on coming here without a promise of significant playing time.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yeah, I know the order it happened in but I'm confident that Gordon's agent knew what was going on. I don't think we sell him on coming here without a promise of significant playing time.

Im not really sure why Gordon coming here as a backup SG would have been negatively impacted by having a backup PG on the team to round out the second unit backcourt.

Also, I don’t buy that the Suns didn’t tell Gordon that he’d be the likely leader in minutes off the bench.

This just seems like y’all are really stretching to defend what just looks like a move to save money. Cam wasn’t on a huge contract and considering we did get Gordon, we weren’t going to be so reliant on Cam to be as consistent as bubble or 2021 Cam.

 

[Yuma]

Im not really sure why Gordon coming here as a backup SG would have been negatively impacted by having a backup PG on the team to round out the second unit backcourt.

Also, I don’t buy that the Suns didn’t tell Gordon that he’d be the likely leader in minutes off the bench.

This just seems like y’all are really stretching to defend what just looks like a move to save money. Cam wasn’t on a huge contract and considering we did get Gordon, we weren’t going to be so reliant on Cam to be as consistent as bubble or 2021 Cam.

I don't think they had to tell Gordon that. Gordon > Cam Payne. So of course he would get more minutes. We saw the dog that Gordon is in that game against Argentina to nail down the Bahamas advancing. I think we upgraded Cam Payne's spot with Gordon.

 

[Mainstreet]

Yeah, I know the order it happened in but I'm confident that Gordon's agent knew what was going on. I don't think we sell him on coming here without a promise of significant playing time.

IMO, it was always Cam Payne or Ish Wainright for the final roster spot. It's hard for me to see it any other way.

Payne is the better player. Ish's contract is not fully guaranteed until about January 10th.

I don't see why some fans walk away from the idea the primary reason for the trade was to save the Suns approximately $26 million dollars on the luxury tax bill. This is a good reason by itself. Mat Ishbia has already spent volumes of money on the team.

The Suns may be fine without Cam Payne, but I believe they would be deeper and better with him.

I expect the Spurs will trade him when a point guard goes down before the trade deadline.

 

[Hoop Head]

Payne is a PG who can play some off guard. Eric Gordon is an off guard who can play some PG. They don't play the same role primarily on offense. Payne is also a better defender although they typically guard different players, Payne on PG's and Gordon on wings. I don't see believe we ever in a position to choose one over the other.

 

[Mainstreet]

Payne is a PG who can play some off guard. Eric Gordon is an off guard who can play some PG. They don't play the same role primarily on offense. Payne is also a better defender although they typically guard different players, Payne on PG's and Gordon on wings. I don't see believe we ever in a position to choose one over the other.

If I understand you correctly, they were independent decisions, not contingent upon each other. These are my thoughts.

I believe Gordon and Payne could coexist on the same roster because Cam made it clear, he wanted to stay. Also, they have different styles of play.

Regardless, I believe a team can never have enough quality depth.

 

[Yuma]

Payne is a PG who can play some off guard. Eric Gordon is an off guard who can play some PG. They don't play the same role primarily on offense. Payne is also a better defender although they typically guard different players, Payne on PG's and Gordon on wings. I don't see believe we ever in a position to choose one over the other.

You are forgetting about Jordan Goodwin who is replacing Payne. Plus Okogie who the Suns like and started playing more minutes than Payne, and also Saben Lee who the Suns like and picked up with an option.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Payne is a PG who can play some off guard. Eric Gordon is an off guard who can play some PG. They don't play the same role primarily on offense. Payne is also a better defender although they typically guard different players, Payne on PG's and Gordon on wings. I don't see believe we ever in a position to choose one over the other.

I don't disagree, Payne is more of a PG and Eric is more of a shooting guard and has been used as a sg/sf almost entirely. But the point is, there are only so many guard minutes available and we have 3 shooting guards plus Goodwin that will be eating up most of the guard minutes no matter whether you view them as PGs or SGs. If we stay healthy, there wouldn't be enough minutes for Payne or whoever is the least valuable of that group.

As for defense, I don't think there's much difference between the two even if Payne gets the slight edge. I didn't watch Houston often but if Gordon isn't a clear upgrade from Payne overall, than I'd rather we'd just stayed with Cam.

 

[Hoop Head]

You are forgetting about Jordan Goodwin who is replacing Payne. Plus Okogie who the Suns like and started playing more minutes than Payne, and also Saben Lee who the Suns like and picked up with an option.

Goodwin is incredibly unproven. He could be a player and he could be a bust. There's a reason he was included in the Beal trade. He's entering his 3rd year as an undrafted 24 year old who has never been in a winning situation. Relying solely on him for PG depth off the bench doesn't make a lot of sense given we're all in on a title run.

I'm curious why Washington let him go also. Beal forced his way out but he didn't need to be included to make it work. Seems odd for a rebuilding team to give up on a 24 year old who they'd tried developing over the last season. They're in a rebuild, he's exactly what a rebuilding team should fill out their roster with.

As for Okogie, I'm not sure why you brought him up as he's not a PG in any way. He's a short wing. Whether he saw minutes last season is irrelevant since we're a new team. He and Payne are entirely different players. Comparing them is like comparing Durant and Ayton, they're vastly different players who fill entirely different roles.

 

[Chaplin]

Goodwin is incredibly unproven. He could be a player and he could be a bust. There's a reason he was included in the Beal trade. He's entering his 3rd year as an undrafted 24 year old who has never been in a winning situation. Relying solely on him for PG depth off the bench doesn't make a lot of sense given we're all in on a title run.

I'm curious why Washington let him go also. Beal forced his way out but he didn't need to be included to make it work. Seems odd for a rebuilding team to give up on a 24 year old who they'd tried developing over the last season. They're in a rebuild, he's exactly what a rebuilding team should fill out their roster with.

As for Okogie, I'm not sure why you brought him up as he's not a PG in any way. He's a short wing. Whether he saw minutes last season is irrelevant since we're a new team. He and Payne are entirely different players. Comparing them is like comparing Durant and Ayton, they're vastly different players who fill entirely different roles.

He was comparing minutes. There aren’t enough for a player like Payne. Period. Full stop.

 

[Yuma]

Goodwin is incredibly unproven. He could be a player and he could be a bust. There's a reason he was included in the Beal trade. He's entering his 3rd year as an undrafted 24 year old who has never been in a winning situation. Relying solely on him for PG depth off the bench doesn't make a lot of sense given we're all in on a title run.

I'm curious why Washington let him go also. Beal forced his way out but he didn't need to be included to make it work. Seems odd for a rebuilding team to give up on a 24 year old who they'd tried developing over the last season. They're in a rebuild, he's exactly what a rebuilding team should fill out their roster with.

As for Okogie, I'm not sure why you brought him up as he's not a PG in any way. He's a short wing. Whether he saw minutes last season is irrelevant since we're a new team. He and Payne are entirely different players. Comparing them is like comparing Durant and Ayton, they're vastly different players who fill entirely different roles.

I brought up Okogie, because if you go back and watch the games he played in, even in the playoffs, he was trusted to bring the ball up. Once we get it past half court, it's going to Beal, Booker, or KD anyway.

 

[Mainstreet]

He was comparing minutes. There aren’t enough for a player like Payne. Period. Full stop.

This is assuming everyone stays healthy. Again, a team can't have enough quality depth.

If Payne was moved to save $26 million dollars, there is no harm in saying it. The Suns owner has already proven he will spend to put a championship contender on the court.

 

[AzStevenCal]

This is assuming everyone stays healthy. Again, a team can't have enough quality depth.

If Payne was moved to save $26 million dollars, there is no harm in saying it. The Suns owner has already proven he will spend to put a championship contender on the court.

None at all, if that's what you believe. But if that's what we did, I'd be very disappointed in management/ownership unless they did it with the expectation of gaining value from that savings (2nd apron kind of stuff).

 

[Covert Rain]

The reality is Cam Payne is as good a back up PG as your gonna find.

This board’s expectations are very unrealistic

I didn't know expecting him to be more consistent and show up was so unrealistic.

 

[Mainstreet]

None at all, if that's what you believe. But if that's what we did, I'd be very disappointed in management/ownership unless they did it with the expectation of gaining value from that savings (2nd apron kind of stuff).

It appears the Suns were willing to pay TJ McConnell if the trade rumors were true.

I also read the Suns wanted to clear a roster spot but this wasn't necessary with Wainright on a non-guaranteed contract.

There will always be lipstick put on these trades, but John Gambadoro said something close to the truth. IMO, you don't trade a point guard for virtually nothing that averaged over 10 points and over 4.5 assists the last two seasons.

Capable point guards are not easily replaced.

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[AzStevenCal]

It appears the Suns were willing to pay TJ McConnell if the trade rumors were true.

I also read the Suns wanted to clear a roster spot but this wasn't necessary with Wainright on a non-guaranteed contract.

There will always be lipstick put on these trades, but John Gambadoro said something close to the truth. IMO, you don't trade a point guard for virtually nothing that averaged over 10 points and over 4.5 assists the last two seasons.

Capable point guards are not easily replaced.

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I have no problem believing that money was a factor but that other considerations were also involved in the decision. And I'm fine with that. What I would not be fine with is telling the world we are going all out for a championship and then making a move solely to save money. And I just don't see Ishbia being that shortsighted.