Should Suns continue with the 2 PG system or no?

[Mainstreet]

Life under Paul Westphaul was pretty good too... do you give him credit for any of that?

Yes, I mentioned it briefly in an earlier post but I didn't feel it was necessary to expand about the success of Paul Westpal and Cotton Fitzsimmons. IMO, it was obvious. Below is my earlier post.

I'm amazed Mike D'Antoni is disliked so much after all this time. His season winning percentage with the Suns is only surpassed by Cotton Fitzsimmons and Paul Westphal. On paper, it's hard to believe Alvin Gentry is still not the Suns head coach. He seems so much better than what the Suns hired after the departure of Mike D'Antoni.

Personally, Cotton Fitzsimmons is my favorite Suns head coach. I liked him a lot as a coach and as a person. He was very accessible.

 

[Mainstreet]

To those who are on the other side of the argument vs Mainstreet...I have one question:

Do you think Nash's career would have taken off the way it would have if we had another coach instead of pringles? I know a majority of us like Thibs so I'm gonna use that example. If we ran a slow half court offense like the Bulls have been doing for the past 5-6 years, do you think Nash would have had the same or even similar amount of success? Secondly, do you think the team (the way the roster was formed) would have been as successful or close to it with a slow half court offense like that?

Now you can reply back saying "Oh well Nash was good in Dallas too before he played with Pringles" but any true Suns fan knows that the Nash in Dallas and the Nash in Phoenix were completely different as Nash lifted himself into a special tier once he came back to Phoenix.

Even the success we had under Gentry, iirc Gentry credited D'Antoni because they ran almost the exact same system. I remember when he was hired he himself said something along the lines of "I'm not gonna change the system that much, it will be very similar to what we had (prior to Porter) because that was successful here resulting in ton of wins".

I'm not saying Nash would have been garbage without DA or the Suns would have been garbage without DA. But would they have had the same amount of success? Would Nash have fit another coach's system as well? Would the team, the way it was designed, have fit another coach's system as well?

Me and a buddy had this conversation few weeks ago and now that yall are back to that topic again, I figured I'd ask.

I don't mind answering this question. I think SSOL was tailor made for Steve Nash. D'Antoni was indeed blessed in finding a player that could run his offense so well. It allowed Nash to maximize his talent as a player. I doubt if Steve Nash would have become a two-time MVP in Dallas with Dirk Nowitzki on the team nor any other team that comes to mind. Nash and the Suns were like a perfect storm. That's not to say Nash would not have excelled with any other team, but not to this degree.

 

[Mainstreet]

Getting back to the original topic. I prefer a one PG offense. However, I'm not sure if Jeff Hornacek is willing to change directions if the opportunity comes, to trade Knight or Bledsoe. I think a trade of one of the two mentioned players will come before next year's trade deadline.

 

[BC867]

Getting back to the original topic. I prefer a one PG offense. However, I'm not sure if Jeff Hornacek is willing to change directions if the opportunity comes, to trade Knight or Bledsoe. I think a trade of one of the two mentioned players will come before next year's trade deadline.

Past statements have indicated it is McDonough AND Hornacek who are committed to the 2-tweener Guard starting backcourt. No traditional Point Guard. No traditional Shooting Guard.

By reminder, it was McDonough who said that as long as he is GM, that will be the arrangement.

The only guy with the ability to say "enough" is Robert Sarver and he is a businessman, not a basketball mind.

If the Chairperson of GM decided to manufacture vehicles, none of which get more than 20 MPG, the public would change her mind in a hurry.

In the business of sports, it would take crowds of no more than 10,000 per game to influence owners. But the production of automobiles is national. Sports teams are regional. And TV contracts are more important than single game attendance.

'Much more difficult for sports fans like us in the Valley to influence Sarver, McDonough or Hornacek that their stubborn gimmick has not worked.

 

[Mainstreet]

Past statements have indicated it is McDonough AND Hornacek who are committed to the 2-tweener Guard starting backcourt. No traditional Point Guard. No traditional Shooting Guard.

By reminder, it was McDonough who said that as long as he is GM, that will be the arrangement.

The only guy with the ability to say "enough" is Robert Sarver and he is a businessman, not a basketball mind.

If the Chairperson of GM decided to manufacture vehicles, none of which get more than 20 MPG, the public would change her mind in a hurry.

In the business of sports, it would take crowds of no more than 10,000 per game to influence owners. But the production of automobiles is national. Sports teams are regional. And TV contracts are more important than single game attendance.

'Much more difficult for sports fans like us in the Valley to influence Sarver, McDonough or Hornacek that their stubborn gimmick has not worked.

If Hornacek does not produce with the two PG offense next season I think there will be a parting of the ways. IMO, McDonough is only trying to give Hornacek what he wants. He is not a coach. When Sarver gets tired of losing he will rattle the cage and we will see who falls out. Sarver is not going to get a new arena built with losing teams. A part of me thinks that McDonough traded for Knight so he could trade Bledsoe or Knight to help obtain a significant asset. Draft picks would likely be involved to get it done. I believe if a trade happens, Hornacek will either get with the program or leave. Coaches have to adapt to player personnel.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yes, I mentioned it briefly in an earlier post but I didn't feel it was necessary to expand about the success of Paul Westpal and Cotton Fitzsimmons. IMO, it was obvious. Below is my earlier post.

what was obvious about Westy's coaching that led you to believe he deserved credit for the success those RIDICULOUSLY talented teams had? Again, those teams were BEYOND stocked and were incredible disappointments after reaching the Finals and after his stint with the Suns, Westy has been a complete and utter failure both in the NBA and in college. Again, let that set in, the same way it should set in with DA. He NEVER had any level of success no matter what talent he was with at any level ever again... college or pro.

those teams, just like the SSOL Suns won IN SPITE of their HC, who were the main reason they underachieved.

 

[leclerc]

It worked with KJ/Stock & Horny because Jeff is a great shooter who could move without the ball. Dragon was almost good enough but Bled, IT and Knight need the ball more, they're not good enough shooters or slashers.

 

[SirStefan32]

It worked with KJ/Stock & Horny because Jeff is a great shooter who could move without the ball. Dragon was almost good enough but Bled, IT and Knight need the ball more, they're not good enough shooters or slashers.

Also, both KJ and Hornacek were actual point guards who could run an offense effectively. Someone made a comment earlier in the thread (may have been Cheese) that the Suns need ONE point guard before they think about two of them. Dragic, Bledsoe, IT, Knight... they can all "sort of, kind of" do it (to varying degrees) but none of them are REALLY point guards. Additionally, none of them are particularly intimidating shooters, nor do they have the size to be shooting guards.

Your can play with two point guards who can both run an offense and be a legitimate threat off the ball. The problem is that none of the players featured in the Suns various "two PG lineups" can do either one of those things.

 

[Mainstreet]

what was obvious about Westy's coaching that led you to believe he deserved credit for the success those RIDICULOUSLY talented teams had? Again, those teams were BEYOND stocked and were incredible disappointments after reaching the Finals and after his stint with the Suns, Westy has been a complete and utter failure both in the NBA and in college. Again, let that set in, the same way it should set in with DA. He NEVER had any level of success no matter what talent he was with at any level ever again... college or pro.

those teams, just like the SSOL Suns won IN SPITE of their HC, who were the main reason they underachieved.

It seems you are cherry picking like slinslin leaving out what chunk of statistics you don't like.

 

[SirStefan32]

It seems you are cherry picking like slinslin leaving out what chunk of statistics you don't like.

That is not cherry picking. That's basic analysis- someone's record with the Suns, vs. their record with other teams. How is that cherry-picking? If someone had success in three places and failed in three places, and one decided to only talk about the three failures, THAT would be cherry-picking stats.

Stating someone NEVER had any success outside of Phoenix is just stating facts.

 

[Cheesebeef]

It seems you are cherry picking like slinslin leaving out what chunk of statistics you don't like.

what are you talking about? Feels like pointing to the ONE brief run of success DA/Westy had is cherry picking amongst the TRASH that the rest of their careers have been. I acknowledge those brief eras... but they are the EXCEPTION to the rule... they are the cherry picked moments of their overall careers which have been abject disasters otherwise. I mean, can you really argue that either guy has had any level of success outside of their three year runs while stocked with the most talented rosters in the NBA... that consistently underachieved?

but even if you won't answer that question, why don't you actually answer the question I asked. What have you seen from Westy that suggests he deserves credit for the Suns success? what has he ever done at any other level to show that he wasn't really just the beneficiary of inheriting a 50+ winner that added an MVP and multiple other good players?

 

[Mainstreet]

what are you talking about? Feels like pointing to the ONE brief run of success DA/Westy had is cherry picking amongst the TRASH that the rest of their careers have been. I acknowledge those brief eras... but they are the EXCEPTION to the rule... they are the cherry picked moments of their overall careers which have been abject disasters otherwise. I mean, can you really argue that either guy has had any level of success outside of their three year runs while stocked with the most talented rosters in the NBA... that consistently underachieved?

but even if you won't answer that question, why don't you actually answer the question I asked. What have you seen from Westy that suggests he deserves credit for the Suns success? what has he ever done at any other level to show that he wasn't really just the beneficiary of inheriting a 50+ winner that added an MVP and multiple other good players?

Why don't we stick to simple math and leave out opinions. Let's go to a Suns coach who I immensely respect and had a successful career.

Cotton Fitzsimmon regular season record outside of Phoeinix was 491- 557. Also he had a losing record in the playoffs outside of Phoenix.

What if Cotton had not coached the Suns?

 

[Mainstreet]

That is not cherry picking. That's basic analysis- someone's record with the Suns, vs. their record with other teams. How is that cherry-picking? If someone had success in three places and failed in three places, and one decided to only talk about the three failures, THAT would be cherry-picking stats.

Stating someone NEVER had any success outside of Phoenix is just stating facts.

It is cherry picking. Otherwise use all the data. I show what it looks like to exclude data in my post to cheesebeef in reference to Cotton Fitzsimmons.

 

[Mainstreet]

but even if you won't answer that question, why don't you actually answer the question I asked. What have you seen from Westy that suggests he deserves credit for the Suns success? what has he ever done at any other level to show that he wasn't really just the beneficiary of inheriting a 50+ winner that added an MVP and multiple other good players?

I didn't want to leave this question unanswered. I'm not going to pretend Paul Westphal had any success with the Kings. His two seasons plus were bad. Few coaches do well there. However, Westphal only had one losing season (a partial) in three years with Seattle and even made the playoffs once.

 

[Errntknght]

Also, both KJ and Hornacek were actual point guards who could run an offense effectively. Someone made a comment earlier in the thread (may have been Cheese) that the Suns need ONE point guard before they think about two of them. Dragic, Bledsoe, IT, Knight... they can all "sort of, kind of" do it (to varying degrees) but none of them are REALLY point guards. Additionally, none of them are particularly intimidating shooters, nor do they have the size to be shooting guards.

Your can play with two point guards who can both run an offense and be a legitimate threat off the ball. The problem is that none of the players featured in the Suns various "two PG lineups" can do either one of those things.

I don't know where you are getting the idea that Hornacek was ever much of a success as a PG. Its true he played the position in college but the only time he really played that position in the NBA was his year in Philly, before he went to Utah, and he was not a great success. In fact, most years in Phoenix and Utah the teams had backup PGs who subbed for Johnson and Stockon far more than Horny did. He was the starting SG on those teams and very rarely did he run the offense. It did not bear any resemblance to what he tried to do with Bled and the Dragon. He was a good ball handler - for a SG - and he was an acceptable secondary target for the outlet pass. Mainly he was a damn good shot with excellent shot selection.

If he'd really used his playing days as model for what he's doing as a coach, we would not be having this discussion.

 

[sunsfan88]

The problem with the 2 PG offense is that it makes the offense stagnant. Everyone just ball watches while whichever PG has the ball is trying to make something happen. Nobody other than Warren ever cuts on this team.

By getting a normal offense, everyone is part of the playmaking and everyone's involved in the offense, not just the 2 PGs.

 

[leclerc]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Goodwin played mostly PG in college?

 

[SirStefan32]

I don't know where you are getting the idea that Hornacek was ever much of a success as a PG. Its true he played the position in college but the only time he really played that position in the NBA was his year in Philly, before he went to Utah, and he was not a great success. In fact, most years in Phoenix and Utah the teams had backup PGs who subbed for Johnson and Stockon far more than Horny did. He was the starting SG on those teams and very rarely did he run the offense. It did not bear any resemblance to what he tried to do with Bled and the Dragon. He was a good ball handler - for a SG - and he was an acceptable secondary target for the outlet pass. Mainly he was a damn good shot with excellent shot selection.

If he'd really used his playing days as model for what he's doing as a coach, we would not be having this discussion.

You are arguing a point I didn't make. I said he was an actual point guard who could effectively run an offense. Of course he didn't have success as a point guard since he played next to some of the best point guards around (one of which was one of the best point guards of all time).

He could run any offense better than either of the Suns' 2014/2015 PGs though. What his actual position was is not really relevant.

 

[Mainstreet]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Goodwin played mostly PG in college?

It seems I read somewhere Archie has played point guard but I cannot find any record of it. He was the leading scorer for Kentucky in his only season there at 14.1 PPG. His APG were 2.7.

 

[SirStefan32]

The problem with the 2 PG offense is that it makes the offense stagnant. Everyone just ball watches while whichever PG has the ball is trying to make something happen. Nobody other than Warren ever cuts on this team.

By getting a normal offense, everyone is part of the playmaking and everyone's involved in the offense, not just the 2 PGs.

I don't disagree, but the problem is that the Suns don't have A point guard, not that they have two. Dragic was probably the closest thing to a point guard, and he was definitely less of a ball stopper than the other ones, but even he wasn't really effective without a secondary ball-handler/ facilitator. In an idea world, Dragic would play next to a young Grant Hill.

There is no incentive for anyone to move without the ball if Bledsoe or IT have the ball as they are not going to pass it unless it's off of a drive to a spot-up shooter. To make things worse, Morris brothers aren't gonna pass the ball to anyone but each other, and neither will Green. Tucker isn't much of a passer, and Len, while a willing passer, is very young, underutilized, and inexperienced. Your guards are ball stoppers, your forwards are ball stoppers, of course there will be no ball movement or movement without the ball.

 

[Mainstreet]

The problem with the 2 PG offense is that it makes the offense stagnant. Everyone just ball watches while whichever PG has the ball is trying to make something happen. Nobody other than Warren ever cuts on this team.

By getting a normal offense, everyone is part of the playmaking and everyone's involved in the offense, not just the 2 PGs.

It seemed that way with the Suns last season however I think it's more about how the offense is run. This worries me the most about Jeff Hornacek as head coach. It seemed the Suns would wait for one of the PGs to penetrate to create the open shot.

 

[Errntknght]

You are arguing a point I didn't make. I said he was an actual point guard who could effectively run an offense. Of course he didn't have success as a point guard since he played next to some of the best point guards around (one of which was one of the best point guards of all time).

He could run any offense better than either of the Suns' 2014/2015 PGs though. What his actual position was is not really relevant.

Okay, I'll use the same words you did - in the NBA he was not an actual PG and could not run an offense very effectively. There was a reason that Phoenix used guys like Gary Grant and Negele Knight at PG when KJ wasn't on the floor. Utah used John Crotty and other guys I don't even remember at backup point... wait, Howard Eisely was another one. Heck, if you didn't watch Hornacek at Philly you never got to see him attempt to run an offense. It was something we discussed in those days and the year at Philly seemed to convince him he was meant to be an SG.

As a PG I wouldn't rank him above any of Dragic, Bledsoe or Thomas. In the offense they ran last year I'm sure he'd have done worse than any of them - but in a more structured offense he might be better because he would do what the coach instructed. He'd be a very good PG in the Triangle, for example!

 

[Covert Rain]

I'm amazed Mike D'Antoni is disliked so much after all this time. His season winning percentage with the Suns is only surpassed by Cotton Fitzsimmons and Paul Westphal. On paper, it's hard to believe Alvin Gentry is still not the Suns head coach. He seems so much better than what the Suns hired after the departure of Mike D'Antoni.

What is not to get? He coached a team with a mountain of talent and one of the best PG's ever. At the very least he should have done what he did. IMO, he underperformed as a coach with that much talent and squandered opportunities.

So you do not include his record with the Suns when you cherry pick stats.

I don't think including a coaches entire record coaching, his dismantling of other teams defense and his overall performance is cherry picking. We know how he did here but his overall body of work speaks for itself. He was in the right place at the right time with a roster loaded with talent.

 

[Phrazbit]

What is not to get? He coached a team with a mountain of talent and one of the best PG's ever. At the very least he should have done what he did. IMO, he underperformed as a coach with that much talent and squandered opportunities.



I don't think including a coaches entire record coaching, his dismantling of other teams defense and his overall performance is cherry picking. We know how he did here but his overall body of work speaks for itself. He was in the right place at the right time with a roster loaded with talent.

And the key with Mike is that after leaving here he coached a few other teams that had some serious talent and those teams bordered between merely "very disappointing" and "tire fire".

 

[Mainstreet]

What is not to get? He coached a team with a mountain of talent and one of the best PG's ever. At the very least he should have done what he did. IMO, he underperformed as a coach with that much talent and squandered opportunities.

I think it is clear. DA has a winning record as an NBA head coach. I give him credit for what he has done. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't believe in chopping a coaches career into pieces for the sake of winning a discussion. In poker, it's called playing the cards that are dealt.

I don't think including a coaches entire record coaching, his dismantling of other teams defense and his overall performance is cherry picking. We know how he did here but his overall body of work speaks for itself. He was in the right place at the right time with a roster loaded with talent.

Actually I'm all for including DA's entire coaching record when looking at him as a head coach. I feel the same about examining the head coaching careers for Paul Westphal or Cotton Fitzsimmons. I have pointed out that excluding parts of their entire career (like their coaching careers with the Suns) is cherry picking. I have previously explained my thoughts at length to several posters.