Should the Suns keep Ryan McDonough as GM

[Chaplin]

Those questions are unrelated.

How so?

 

[elindholm]

How so?

The burden of demonstrating a relationship lies with the side asserting it.

But, since you asked: Dudley's contract is bad, period. Maybe it "doesn't matter" because the Suns can't (or won't) do anything with the money anyway, but that does not change the fact that it is a bad contract. It is bad now and it was bad when it was offered. Just because a mistake does not end up exacting a big price does not mean that it was not a mistake. It becomes a mistake you got away with.

 

[Chaplin]

The burden of demonstrating a relationship lies with the side asserting it.

But, since you asked: Dudley's contract is bad, period. Maybe it "doesn't matter" because the Suns can't (or won't) do anything with the money anyway, but that does not change the fact that it is a bad contract. It is bad now and it was bad when it was offered. Just because a mistake does not end up exacting a big price does not mean that it was not a mistake. It becomes a mistake you got away with.

So what's the argument here? That we shouldn't have signed him to that contract? Sure, I'll concede that. But does it matter on February 12, 2018? And will it affect anything beyond this? It's obvious you believe the negative of the contract far outweighs the positives of having him on the team regardless of the contract. But what does that have to do with anything? Other than using it as ammunition for the "fire McD" crowd?

 

[SirStefan32]

Yeah, I really wish argument were more reasonable. There is plenty of crap to use against McD. Hid handling of the Dragic/Bledsoe/IT crap show, giving away the Lakers' pick, trading for Knight, then extending Knight, hiring a bad coach, and stuff like that. I can see how someone can list those things and say, "Hey, I don't think this guy is a good GM." But signing Chandler and Dudley, not giving him enough credit for his draft history, and stuff like that is just silly. This is the problem with society today, not just this board. Everyone is either a devil or an angel. There is no in-between with most things today. You just don't hear much of "Here are some things this person does well. Here are some things they don't do well."

 

[elindholm]

So what's the argument here? That we shouldn't have signed him to that contract? Sure, I'll concede that. But does it matter on February 12, 2018? And will it affect anything beyond this? It's obvious you believe the negative of the contract far outweighs the positives of having him on the team regardless of the contract. But what does that have to do with anything? Other than using it as ammunition for the "fire McD" crowd?

In general, negative-value contracts are bad and flexibility is good. It is not possible to predict exactly which possibilities may present themselves. It's a little like asking why a car should have advanced safety features if you probably aren't going to get into a crash.

No one saw the acquisition of Payton coming. It was possible, in part, because the Suns had an extra second-round pick. They were given that pick as compensation for absorbing Daniels's contract. In general, flexibility is good. If you had asked me, a week ago, "What specific move can the Suns make with their cap room and extra picks?", I would not have been able to provide an answer. But they had resources and were in a position to take advantage of them. Bad contracts restrict the range of options.

 

[elindholm]

Yeah, I really wish argument were more reasonable. There is plenty of crap to use against McD. Hid handling of the Dragic/Bledsoe/IT crap show, giving away the Lakers' pick, trading for Knight, then extending Knight, hiring a bad coach, and stuff like that. I can see how someone can list those things and say, "Hey, I don't think this guy is a good GM." But signing Chandler and Dudley, not giving him enough credit for his draft history, and stuff like that is just silly. This is the problem with society today, not just this board. Everyone is either a devil or an angel. There is no in-between with most things today. You just don't hear much of "Here are some things this person does well. Here are some things they don't do well."

Good grief, you're calling me unreasonable while indulging your utterly one-sided assessment of Bender. I don't know what has happened to you.

 

[SirStefan32]

Good grief, you're calling me unreasonable while indulging your utterly one-sided assessment of Bender. I don't know what has happened to you.

I didn't have any one specific person in mind. I was speaking in general terms, pointing out that some of the criticism is just not fair.
As for Bender, if you go through my posts, you will see that I have called out some problems with his game. Confidence being the biggest one. I don't think my assessment of Bender is unreasonable. That may be your perception of my assessment of Bender, but I assure you that I recognize Bender's shortcomings.

 

[Mainstreet]

Yeah, I really wish argument were more reasonable. There is plenty of crap to use against McD. Hid handling of the Dragic/Bledsoe/IT crap show, giving away the Lakers' pick, trading for Knight, then extending Knight, hiring a bad coach, and stuff like that. I can see how someone can list those things and say, "Hey, I don't think this guy is a good GM." But signing Chandler and Dudley, not giving him enough credit for his draft history, and stuff like that is just silly. This is the problem with society today, not just this board. Everyone is either a devil or an angel. There is no in-between with most things today. You just don't hear much of "Here are some things this person does well. Here are some things they don't do well."

I agree with everything except giving Dudley a multiyear guaranteed contract for $30 million.

 

[Chaplin]

In general, negative-value contracts are bad and flexibility is good. It is not possible to predict exactly which possibilities may present themselves. It's a little like asking why a car should have advanced safety features if you probably aren't going to get into a crash.

I see what you are saying here, I just don't think it's a good comparison because you're not talking about 1 of 12 cars you have in your garage, you're talking about your primary or secondary mode of transportation.

No one saw the acquisition of Payton coming. It was possible, in part, because the Suns had an extra second-round pick. They were given that pick as compensation for absorbing Daniels's contract. In general, flexibility is good. If you had asked me, a week ago, "What specific move can the Suns make with their cap room and extra picks?", I would not have been able to provide an answer. But they had resources and were in a position to take advantage of them. Bad contracts restrict the range of options.

True, in general you are correct, bad contracts do restrict your range of options. My only question is today, what options can we not consider because of Dudley's contract? I'm not sure there is any.[/QUOTE]

 

[SirStefan32]

One thing I like about McD is that nobody ever knows what he is doing. I cannot remember a single deal he made that was rumored beforehand.

 

[Cheesebeef]

One thing I like about McD is that nobody ever knows what he is doing. I cannot remember a single deal he made that was rumored beforehand.

including himself!

(sorry... you put that one up on a t-ball stand for me)

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

One thing I like about McD is that nobody ever knows what he is doing. I cannot remember a single deal he made that was rumored beforehand.

Yes this I would totally agree with. Keeping his cards close to his vest definitely is a big plus.

 

[Mainstreet]

One thing I like about McD is that nobody ever knows what he is doing. I cannot remember a single deal he made that was rumored beforehand.

This is true and it drives me crazy.

The Suns are all the better for it.

I wonder how many teams thought Payton was available for a second round pick or who were smart enough to take advantage of the opportunity.

 

[BC867]

Is there any question that, if Dudley had agreed, he should have been hired as an Assistant Coach? The situation wasn't the same with Chandler as the only proven and consistent Center and rebounder on the team, even though in the twilight his career.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This quote from an ESPN article kinda describes my point:

“It's the teams that can identify the prospects poised to eventually exceed their perceived leaguewide value that are best suited to snag a Donovan Mitchell at No. 13, a Jarrett Allen at No. 22 or an OG Anunoby at No. 23. The organizations that leave the draft victorious are often those that don't get stuck in the groupthink that naturally occurs with prospect rankings.”

Y’all want to give credit to McD when the groupthink is successful but we any to absolve him of the failures due to the fact that the groupthink agreed with the selection. I EXPECT my GM to best the groupthink. At least that’s what I’d want to pay my GM to do.

 

[Mainstreet]

This quote from an ESPN article kinda describes my point:

“It's the teams that can identify the prospects poised to eventually exceed their perceived leaguewide value that are best suited to snag a Donovan Mitchell at No. 13, a Jarrett Allen at No. 22 or an OG Anunoby at No. 23. The organizations that leave the draft victorious are often those that don't get stuck in the groupthink that naturally occurs with prospect rankings.”

Y’all want to give credit to McD when the groupthink is successful but we any to absolve him of the failures due to the fact that the groupthink agreed with the selection. I EXPECT my GM to best the groupthink. At least that’s what I’d want to pay my GM to do.

Didn't Booker exceed expectations at #13?

 

[Carolinacacti]

Donavan Mitchell is 2 years older then the other players taken. Hell the hornet's took Monk who is 19 years old. guess Why.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Didn't Booker exceed expectations at #13?

Exceed expectations yes. But again he was drafted where the groupthink projected him or lower which means while he’s a great get for us his selection doesn’t indicate skill if it’s just groupthink.

 

[Mainstreet]

Exceed expectations yes. But again he was drafted where the groupthink projected him or lower which means while he’s a great get for us his selection doesn’t indicate skill if it’s just groupthink.

Donovan Mitchell was slated to be drafted #14 in the 2017 NBA DraftNet mock.

So he was expected to go around this slot. So this was groupthink as well.

 

[pokerface]

Groupthink doesn't make the decision...McD does.

 

[SirStefan32]

Donovan Mitchell was slated to be drafted #14 in the 2017 NBA DraftNet mock.

So he was expected to go around this slot. So this was groupthink as well.

It's only groupthink if McD's pick works out. If someone else picks the same player in the same situation, it's brilliance. Geez, get it right, Mainstreet!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It's only groupthink if McD's pick works out. If someone else picks the same player in the same situation, it's brilliance. Geez, get it right, Mainstreet!

Okay make up stuff when you’re losing an argument. Good stuff!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Donovan Mitchell was slated to be drafted #14 in the 2017 NBA DraftNet mock.

So he was expected to go around this slot. So this was groupthink as well.

If all of Utah’s choices seemed to follow the groupthink with differing levels of success and failure, yes it would indicate following groupthink (not even MY word) with little skill. But Utah’s GM shrugged off groupthink in drafting Gobert who I recall people thinking was a reach and he planned out. When a GM identifies a talent that everyone else (and I’m talking your vaunted internet experts) missed he earns more consideration for having a selected a Donovan mitchelll based on talent identification skill verses luck based on groupthink.

 

[Mainstreet]

If all of Utah’s choices seemed to follow the groupthink with differing levels of success and failure, yes it would indicate following groupthink (not even MY word) with little skill. But Utah’s GM shrugged off groupthink in drafting Gobert who I recall people thinking was a reach and he planned out. When a GM identifies a talent that everyone else (and I’m talking your vaunted internet experts) missed he earns more consideration for having a selected a Donovan mitchelll based on talent identification skill verses luck based on groupthink.

Let's examine this as well.

Gobert was drafted #27.

In the NBA DraftNet mock, Gobert was projected to go #29.

Groupthink I tell you... groupthink.

 

[pokerface]

Let's examine this as well.

Gobert was drafted #27.

In the NBA DraftNet mock, Gobert was projected to go #29.

Groupthink I tell you... groupthink.

The smart GM's go with groupthink.


Go McDonough!