Should the Suns keep Ryan McDonough as GM

[pokerface]

This. Holding up Payton, who was given away for a second round pick, as a great move feels premature.

Yeah but Payton is showing more potential than a normal second rounder would. So in that regard it's already a win for McD.

 

[Chaplin]

Agree 200%. That said if he was great, or the magic thought he’d be great, they’d make other moves to be able to afford him. However the magic aren’t exactly a franchise that instills confidence in their talent skills so hopefully they blew this assessment and we win.

I don't know why, but the only thing I've seen about Orlando and Payton is that they simply didn't want to pay him. Not sure if it's because he wouldn't be worth what they asked, or what. I like to think they are completely enamoured with one of Doncic or Trae Young and didn't want Payton there to take away from their probable pick. That's very risky, but it is Orlando, after all.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yeah but Payton is showing more potential than a normal second rounder would. So in that regard it's already a win for McD.

if he doesn't eventually contribute to wins, it's a move and nothing else. If he's a part of the team moving forward and helps us, that's a win. If he doesn't, that's not a loss. It's just a move.

 

[Chaplin]

if he doesn't eventually contribute to wins, it's a move and nothing else. If he's a part of the team moving forward and helps us, that's a win. If he doesn't, that's not a loss. It's just a move.

The only way this is a loss is if that 2nd rounder turns into a star.

 

[BC867]

The General Manager is more than a wheeler-dealer in the NBA. He is a figurehead of the team. As such, one must ask, "Has he been a puppet for the owners?".

The Suns began the season as the laughingstock of the NBA because of the botched Bledsoe handling and firing their choice for Head Coach a few games into the season.

And of now, most of the way through the season, they remain the laughingstock. For a ton of reasons which I've posted previously.

If we can't get rid of Sarver, we need to clean house with a new GM and a new permanent Head Coach to show that the Suns want to rise about all of this. That would be the only indication.

Hopefully, they will not hire more inexperienced "yes" men. But, if they do, as we expect, maybe they'll stumble on a GM and Head Coach who will tell them to f*ck off and let them do their job.

And, if not, it will just be another round of incompetence and Suns fans will be SOL ... again.

 

[Chaplin]

The General Manager is more than a wheeler-dealer in the NBA. He is a figurehead of the team. As such, one must ask, "Has he been a puppet for the owners?".

The Suns began the season as the laughingstock of the NBA because of the botched Bledsoe handling and firing their choice for Head Coach a few games into the season.

And of now, most of the way through the season, they remain the laughingstock. For a ton of reasons which I've posted previously.

If we can't get rid of Sarver, we need to clean house with a new GM and a new permanent Head Coach to show that the Suns want to rise about all of this. That would be the only indication.

Hopefully, they will not hire more inexperienced "yes" men. But, if they do, as we expect, maybe they'll stumble on a GM and Head Coach who will tell them to f*ck off and let them do their job.

And, if not, it will just be another round of incompetence and Suns fans will be SOL ... again.

Sarver has become the go-to scapegoat for those that can't see how incompetent our other executives are. McD sucks? Nah, it's all Sarver! Give me a break. What you need is a GM that succeeds in SPITE of the owner's meddling (if it even exists at this time--which isn't a given).

 

[pokerface]

The thing is a lot of ppl that are down on McD have no idea who would replace him. That is what makes it dicey.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

This. Holding up Payton, who was given away for a second round pick, as a great move feels premature.

This is the wrong way to look at moves IMO. A GM can only control how good a move was at the time it is made. At the time it happened getting Payton for a second round pick (something we have a plethora of) is a good move. Even if he falls on his face over the last 25 games it doesn't change the fact that McD was able to get a young PG with legitimate starting potential for just a 2nd round pick. Going back weeks, months or even years after a move was made to say it sucked is irrelevant in the way that it should be graded. I just don't see how you can say it is premature to call it a great move.

 

[Hoop Head]

The General Manager is more than a wheeler-dealer in the NBA. He is a figurehead of the team. As such, one must ask, "Has he been a puppet for the owners?".

The Suns began the season as the laughingstock of the NBA because of the botched Bledsoe handling and firing their choice for Head Coach a few games into the season.

And of now, most of the way through the season, they remain the laughingstock. For a ton of reasons which I've posted previously.

If we can't get rid of Sarver, we need to clean house with a new GM and a new permanent Head Coach to show that the Suns want to rise about all of this. That would be the only indication.

Hopefully, they will not hire more inexperienced "yes" men. But, if they do, as we expect, maybe they'll stumble on a GM and Head Coach who will tell them to f*ck off and let them do their job.

And, if not, it will just be another round of incompetence and Suns fans will be SOL ... again.

I can understand people bashing McD but I've seen a lot of people bashing Triano as of late and while it's warranted considering the losses the team has suffered I don't fully understand it because it seems like some people want him fired despite the fact he's only the interim head coach and I don't think an interim HC has ever been fired during the season. They've been replaced, sure, but to replace them with another interim coach until the offseason would be a foolish move. Triano won't be kept beyond this season as the head coach but he may stick around as an assistant depending on who is hired as the head coach.

 

[Mainstreet]

Searching for what? I think the Utah scenario actually helps to cement my argument n

I thought you would be looking for a better example than Gobert.

I'm sure there are some players out there that support your argument.

Groupthink had Gobert going #29, e.g., in the 2013 NBA DraftNet mock. Gobert was drafted at #27... only two spots different.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Sarver has become the go-to scapegoat for those that can't see how incompetent our other executives are. McD sucks? Nah, it's all Sarver! Give me a break. What you need is a GM that succeeds in SPITE of the owner's meddling (if it even exists at this time--which isn't a given).

The Clippers GM was able to do this during the last couple years of Sterling's reign of terror. That team was already a playoff team with Paul, Griffin, etc. etc. for a couple years before Sterling kicked the bucket basketball speaking.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I can understand people bashing McD but I've seen a lot of people bashing Triano as of late and while it's warranted considering the losses the team has suffered I don't fully understand it because it seems like some people want him fired despite the fact he's only the interim head coach and I don't think an interim HC has ever been fired during the season. They've been replaced, sure, but to replace them with another interim coach until the offseason would be a foolish move. Triano won't be kept beyond this season as the head coach but he may stick around as an assistant depending on who is hired as the head coach.

have there really been a lot of people bashing Triano? I don't see many... if any... of the consistent McD bashers doing that.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This is the wrong way to look at moves IMO. A GM can only control how good a move was at the time it is made. At the time it happened getting Payton for a second round pick (something we have a plethora of) is a good move. Even if he falls on his face over the last 25 games it doesn't change the fact that McD was able to get a young PG with legitimate starting potential for just a 2nd round pick. Going back weeks, months or even years after a move was made to say it sucked is irrelevant in the way that it should be graded. I just don't see how you can say it is premature to call it a great move.

I can't disagree more. Trades shouldn't be judged on if they lead to success? I don't get that at all. Isn't the point of a trade to make your team more successful?

Again, I'm not saying if the Payton trade is BAD if it doesn't work out. It's just a trade that didn't accomplish much.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The only way this is a loss is if that 2nd rounder turns into a star.

JESUS (that's not directed solely at you Chap... just frustrated)! Again, I'm not saying it's a LOSS if it doesn't work out. It's just a move. Not ending up good or bad and right now, I'm just saying it's too early to call it a win when we don't know how it will effect the team moving forward.

 

[Mainstreet]

@Ouchie-Z-Clown

Royce O'Neale is looking good for the Jazz and he wasn't even drafted. He might be one of your examples.

 

[Chaplin]

JESUS (that's not directed solely at you Chap... just frustrated)! Again, I'm not saying it's a LOSS if it doesn't work out. It's just a move. Not ending up good or bad and right now, I'm just saying it's too early to call it a win when we don't know how it will effect the team moving forward.

Sure I can go along with that. But the fact remains that Payton has at least more potential than say, an Isiah Canaan or a Mike James. That alone leans it more to good than than bad.

 

[BC867]

Sarver has become the go-to scapegoat for those that can't see how incompetent our other executives are. McD sucks? Nah, it's all Sarver! Give me a break.

Huh? Sarver is the one who hires the Front Office. They report to him. Of course he is responsible for their performance.

What you need is a GM that succeeds in SPITE of the owner's meddling (if it even exists at this time--which isn't a given).

That's the point. Sarver hired an inexperienced General Manager with a weak personality. That's what ineffective leaders do. Sarver's meddling became the foundation of their relationship. Which included daily meetings with Head Coach Jeff Hornacek, another mild mannered "yes man", to micro-manage every decision on the court, despite his own lack of NBA expertise.

Leaders who lack confidence in themselves surround themselves with underlings who won't be a challenge to their shortcomings. You say the GM "needs" to succeed in spite of the owner's meddling? C'mon, Chap, you just identified the problem yourself. It is Robert Sarver.

That's the sad part. As long as he is allowed to continue as Managing General Partner, instead of just a 30% investor, Sarver is going to keep hiring people too mild mannered to stand up to him. It is a classic example of a weak manager. That could be part of Triano's decision to not want the job on a permanent basis. I know it would be part of my decision. You can't be any better than the person above you can comprehend.

And, for the record, my opinion is based upon more than thirty years in upper middle management. My paychecks depended on me hiring and developing the best managers available. Not hiring the weakest to make me look good. My reputation in various companies was, "If you want a young (inexperienced) member of management to develop into a future leader, turn them over to BC.

In one position, I even heard one small minded manager (the son of mistress of our Vice President -- nepotism) say to me, when one of those that I trained was promoted out of one of my departments, "Are you crazy? Now you have to train someone new." And I just said, "That's part of my job, man." I knew he wouldn't understand.

Sarver's behavior strikes me as being one of those small minded people. As long as he is in the driver's seat, the Suns are going to continue to be an embarrassment to the NBA. And to our fans.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I can't disagree more. Trades shouldn't be judged on if they lead to success? I don't get that at all. Isn't the point of a trade to make your team more successful?

Again, I'm not saying if the Payton trade is BAD if it doesn't work out. It's just a trade that didn't accomplish much.

Not completely, no. The reason I say that is there will always be unforeseen circumstances involved in a trade that can hurt or help it turn into success. For instance if you trade a good player for far less than his worth and another player who you weren't expecting to make a big jump starts playing great in that other players absence, was that a good trade? Say you trade a perennial all star for the 13th pick in the draft, would you consider that a good trade? What if that pick turned into someone like Kobe? See there are so many hypotheticals that can effect the success that follows a trade. Thus IMO a trade should first and foremost be graded on the perceived value that you gave up vs what you received. Therefor regardless of outcome trading a 2nd round pick for Payton has to bee seen as a very good trade IMO.

 

[Matt L]

To answer the question in the thread title, I would have to say the Suns should keep him because if he is not here, Sarver would probably do something silly like sign Josh Childress, Hedo Turkoglu and some other poopy player.

i mean, if i had to grade McDonough i would go the following:

Draft: B-
Free agents: B
Coaching Hires: D-
Trades: B+
Media Savvy: D-

I have not idea how that averages out but i'm guessing he is somewhere in the C range. that said, I don't think this type of position is something that you are just born with. I think it takes time and mistakes to learn from and get better and grow. He has one year left on his contract, I think it is in the organization's best interest to give him this off-season and then look where they are at next year and fire him if we are in the middle of another tank run.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

To answer the question in the thread title, I would have to say the Suns should keep him because if he is not here, Sarver would probably do something silly like sign Josh Childress, Hedo Turkoglu and some other ****** player.

i mean, if i had to grade McDonough i would go the following:

Draft: B-
Free agents: B
Coaching Hires: D-
Trades: B+
Media Savvy: D-

I have not idea how that averages out but i'm guessing he is somewhere in the C range. that said, I don't think this type of position is something that you are just born with. I think it takes time and mistakes to learn from and get better and grow. He has one year left on his contract, I think it is in the organization's best interest to give him this off-season and then look where they are at next year and fire him if we are in the middle of another tank run.

That’s a C-

 

[Errntknght]

The next thing McD needs to succeed at is getting us an early pick in this draft. Suppose it begins to look like the only way to do it is sit Booker or Payton with a phantom injury? Will we laud him or condemn him for that - I'd say right on, Ryan. Its a necessary evil.

The step after that is making the right choice with out pick. I hope Doncic is off the board for Ryan's sake because we have to improve our front court at all costs... we don't have a PF or C who is even likely to become an NBA starter level player. A fair to middling chance for Bender and an outside chance for Chriss is how I see it and a slight chance for Big Sauce. If Doncic were a defensive whiz, I would be willing to take him but as is, no way.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

The next thing McD needs to succeed at is getting us an early pick in this draft. Suppose it begins to look like the only way to do it is sit Booker or Payton with a phantom injury? Will we laud him or condemn him for that - I'd say right on, Ryan. Its a necessary evil.

The step after that is making the right choice with out pick. I hope Doncic is off the board for Ryan's sake because we have to improve our front court at all costs... we don't have a PF or C who is even likely to become an NBA starter level player. A fair to middling chance for Bender and an outside chance for Chriss is how I see it and a slight chance for Big Sauce. If Doncic were a defensive whiz, I would be willing to take him but as is, no way.

Yeah because that worked so well with Bledsoe...

These guys are competitive and want to be on the floor if they are healthy. Just look at Booker he hates missing games so much that he won't even let his bumps and bruises heal before getting back into the game and that is despite the fact that this team is terrible and really playing for nothing. Last thing we want to do at this point is piss off guys like Booker and Payton when we are trying to build around those guys (especially Booker obviously).

 

[BC867]

Yeah because that worked so well with Bledsoe...

These guys are competitive and want to be on the floor if they are healthy. Just look at Booker he hates missing games so much that he won't even let his bumps and bruises heal before getting back into the game and that is despite the fact that this team is terrible and really playing for nothing. Last thing we want to do at this point is piss off guys like Booker and Payton when we are trying to build around those guys (especially Booker obviously).

That is absolutely true! The longer we build a loser's mentality ... the longer we build a loser's mentality. That seems to be all that Sarver and McDonough know. And posts like the one that Errntkngt voiced.

I understand the "hope" of finally lucking out in the draft. But that is LAZY management. We finally have a Point Guard with the tools to be a true facilitator and help the rest of this "young" team, which will get even younger if we're counting on draft picks.

And finally one who can play defense in the backcourt and is capable of triple-doubles. And stepping up on the scoring side when Booker is out or being smothered. A rookie Point Guard in the draft isn't going to be able to pull that off.

Let's get a quality Center -- a rebounding and defensive specialist -- who will also help this "young" team. Then work on Power Forward.

The answer is proactive management, rather than lazy management. Making things happen vs. hoping that things happen.

And not alienate our existing young stars. We don't need Devin Booker texting from a hairdresser's, or anywhere else, that he wants to leave.

The leadership of this team is inexperienced, untalented, passive and pathetic. Phoenix Suns fans deserve a better approach.

Am I ? As long as the horse is still breathing. C'mon, guys, let's think in terms of getting the horse back on its feet. Let's start with a talented trainer and jockey after the end of the season.

 

[pokerface]

Yeah because that worked so well with Bledsoe...

These guys are competitive and want to be on the floor if they are healthy. Just look at Booker he hates missing games so much that he won't even let his bumps and bruises heal before getting back into the game and that is despite the fact that this team is terrible and really playing for nothing. Last thing we want to do at this point is piss off guys like Booker and Payton when we are trying to build around those guys (especially Booker obviously).

Last thing we want to do is blow this draft. Booker isn't going anywhere...neither is Payton because he's a restricted free agent I believe. Booker has aches and pains right now...it would be the perfect time to sit him. Yeah he might be grouchy over it but I think long term he'd be happier playing with Ayton or Bagley.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Last thing we want to do is blow this draft. Booker isn't going anywhere...neither is Payton because he's a restricted free agent I believe.

Then find other ways to do it. Forcing healthy players to sit (especially ones that are in the future plans) is a very poor idea. One thing they could do is play Len and Chandler very sparingly as that would give us no interior defense whatsoever.