Should the Suns trade Steve Nash after this season?

[devilalum]

Ok a lot of people have said trade him if we can get "decent" trade value in return. I think gettin a 1st rd pick, no matter how late it is, would be fair.

The Suns don't need another first round pick in this draft.

 

[sunsfan88]

I figured 'it' out after one year of D'Antoni but not quite the same 'it' as yours or Sunsfan's. Its far from clear to me that Nash's style encourages FO's and coaches to shun defense and make bad personnel decisions. We have had a weak D culture in Phoenix almost from the very beginning. I want to dump Gentry because he didn't recognize it last year when the second unit was having success due to defense - which was an opportunity to start changing the culture.

Yes, Nash's individual defense is poor but a good defensive team could cover for him enough so his net effect on games would be positive - heck, its strikingly positive now with this team.

Anyway, you need to break Nash's style down to two components - pushing the tempo and half court game.

No one will ever convince me that a fast tempo is bad basketball - the Auerbach Celtics and to a lesser extent the Showtime Lakers played very up tempo and were both terrific defensive teams. Many time champions, too, in case you're not aware of history.

Nash's freelance style in the half court is more problematic and, of course, the problem with it shows up when he's not on the floor. Its mainly a coaching problem and the first hurdle for the coaches is to recognize it and face it head on because they have virtually no chance of finding a backup that can successfully play Nash's style.

Its really not an insurmountable task for the players to learn a goodly chunk of a normal NBA playbook plus what is required for Nash to operate - Jackson's teams have to learn the triangle offense which is reputedly much more complex than typical NBA offenses. They seem to manage, somehow.

Of course they have to practice the plays the backup PG will run, which is probably a more difficult task. Its not entirely wasted time because they need to practice defending against those plays regularly anyway. The biggest hurdle many coaches would face would be delegating the responsibility for the backup offense to an assistant so there's someone who worries about it full time - and has the authority to do his job properly.

If the team is deep enough you could 'two-platoon' the way the Suns did the last half of the season last year. Personally I like this approach but I realize that a couple of untimely injuries could send your carefully laid plans down the crapper. Or a FO that was more concerned about making good deals than with giving the coach what he needs.

I'm certainly not advocating keeping the Nash style alive at this point. I want a new, better coach and at this juncture in Nash's career I think the coach should determine the style. If he wants to keep Nash and Nash wants to play for him, let them hash out how to transition to post-Nash era.

Well see that's why the Suns would have to immediately change the fast paced offense as soon as they trade Nash. No PG EVER will be able to run a fast octaned offense like Nash has.

And of course we may not get a good PG right away but we have to draft players and give them time. If they don't pan out, then you draft again and give em time. Keep repeatin the same process again and again and again until it works. Or you go out and sign someone from FA or trade but this seems unlikely.

 

[BC867]

Well see that's why the Suns would have to immediately change the fast paced offense as soon as they trade Nash. No PG EVER will be able to run a fast octaned offense like Nash has.

The irony is that no backup Point Guard can either. Which causes problems as Steve gets older.

And why he has to lead the team in minutes per game. Which at the age of 37 is going to wear him down, during each game and over the season, as it has.

 

[elindholm]

I mean if Baron Davis can be traded and get some value Nash will still get something if he is traded.

The Clippers had to give up their unprotected lottery pick just to unload Davis. Whatever value the Clippers got back came from the pick, not Davis.

 

[sunsfan88]

The Clippers had to give up their unprotected lottery pick just to unload Davis. Whatever value the Clippers got back came from the pick, not Davis.

You mean all star PG Mo Williams?

 

[Errntknght]

sunsfan88,

Well see that's why the Suns would have to immediately change the fast paced offense as soon as they trade Nash. No PG EVER will be able to run a fast octaned offense like Nash has.

If you're talking about the entire offense including his freelance style in the halfcourt, I agree with you that Nash has no peer. But a fair number of PGs can push the ball upfloor for a high tempo game. Heck, Kidd was faster up the floor than Nash is or was - the problem he had when he played here was that no one else on the team kept up with him.
In the Celtics era I mentioned they played their up-tempo game through three PGs - Bob Cousy, KC Jones, then Sam Jones. Auerbach used to say that Bill Russell was the motor that powered their fast break - because he was such a great rebounder and outlet passer.

Scotty Reynolds - on our summer league team - got the ball up the floor fast enough. Dragic was fast enough on the dribble but he couldn't cope with backcourt pressure - his high dribble being a major part of the problem.
I can't tell you who their point guards were but through most of Nash's tenure here the Warriors have played at the same pace as the Suns - their defense sucked even more than ours so they had little success. (Except for knocking the Mavs out of the playoffs in an 1-8(GSW) matchup.)

There are probably 5-10 PGs in the league right now that could handle an uptempo game but we don't know it because their coach doesn't want that style. I can't tell you who they are but I'd guess that Chris Paul and Tony Parker could do it very well. The coach is the primary determinant and the ones that like uptempo usually find PGs to run it.

 

[sunsfan88]

What about a possible Nash/Lopez/Warrick swap with ATL for J-Smoove, Gortat and Pachulia?

Smith is an atheltic freak and would give us a traditional PF who can score in the post, rebound and block shots. He's basically Amare lite.

Hinrich would be a short term option. Not that bad a player either. Pachulia is a servicable backup center...I'll leave it at that.

We get our future PF, a good short term PG, and now we can draft Alec Burks without having to worry about drafting a PG or PF.

Hinrich, Brooks
Burks, Pietrus
Dudley, Childress
Smith, Frye
Gortat, Pachulia

^Lineup would be pretty good. Brooks has played well with Channing and we would be able to go to a 5 man bench rotation like last season. Frye is becoming a beast so he would help our bench big time (offensively and defensively)

 

[ninous26]

Frye aint coming off the bench.

 

[jagu]

How are we getting Gortat from the Hawks?

 

[elindholm]

The Suns don't really play an uptempo game anymore. They aren't among the leaders in fastbreak points. Since the All-Star Break, they are scoring and giving up about 105 points per game, which is high, but not at the top of the league like they used to be. They've also played six overtime periods in their 18 games since the break, so their per-48 averages are around 102, which would put them somewhere in the 8th-10th range. They are still an offensive team more than a defensive one, but speed isn't a big part of the equation.

Brooks is as fast as Nash, as was Dragic before him, as was Barbosa before him. What Nash brings to the table really does not have much to do with speed. The issue is more that the offense is almost entirely dependent on pick-and-roll.

 

[Covert Rain]

The issue is more that the offense is almost entirely dependent on pick-and-roll.

+1. The Suns when they had JRich used to always run that pick and pop to get him started last year and this year. It was one of the Suns other go to plays. It seems like since the trade the pick and roll is the only go to play. Many teams just trap Nash now on the pick and roll and dare the Suns to come up with another play.

Even with Frye's improvement around the rim, they hardly call that play. They do when there is a mismatch and that is about it. They can't depend on our SG spot.

This team desperately needs a good SG and they need to see if Frye can be depended on regularly down low (not only on mismatches). That will determine if the Suns get another PF besides SG in the off season.

 

[FArting]

No you keep and build around him.

 

[JCSunsfan]

There are alot of ways to go to rebuild this team. We need to keep the basic pieces together if at all possible. That would be Gortat, Frye, Dudley. Brooks and Dowdell are sufficient enough for us to not have to reach for a pg in the draft or free agency. That might be the greatest genius of that trade. It allows us to go after the best players available.

 

[Cheesebeef]

No you keep and build around him.

no team who has any desire to win a title should build around an 37 year old, aging, breaking down, bad defending PG.

the era's over. the sooner the team admits that to itself, the sooner we can start to rebuild.

 

[elindholm]

I'm up for trading Nash if he wants to leave and there's a good offer, but I'm still waiting for anyone to explain why getting rid of him just for the sake of doing it would help the rebuilding process.

No, the Suns can't build around Nash. Can they build around the late first-round pick they might get for him in a trade? No. Can they build around the mediocre FA talent available this summer if they were to spend Nash's money on other players? No. Can they build around the other PGs on the roster, Brooks and Dowdell? No. Is there any other young player on the roster that could serve as the focal point of a rebuild? No. Is Nash preventing Gentry from changing the culture? No; the Suns are getting better defensively and don't play nearly so quickly as they used to. Heck, even Nash has improved his defense considerably, but you'd have to watch games to see that.

Nash's presence isn't holding this team back, and his absence would not help. Until the Suns have the pieces in place to start a real rebuild -- and it will take years even to get to that point -- Nash isn't doing any harm.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'm up for trading Nash if he wants to leave and there's a good offer, but I'm still waiting for anyone to explain why getting rid of him just for the sake of doing it would help the rebuilding process.

No, the Suns can't build around Nash. Can they build around the late first-round pick they might get for him in a trade? No. Can they build around the mediocre FA talent available this summer if they were to spend Nash's money on other players? No. Can they build around the other PGs on the roster, Brooks and Dowdell? No. Is there any other young player on the roster that could serve as the focal point of a rebuild? No. Is Nash preventing Gentry from changing the culture? No; the Suns are getting better defensively and don't play nearly so quickly as they used to. Heck, even Nash has improved his defense considerably, but you'd have to watch games to see that.

Nash's presence isn't holding this team back, and his absence would not help. Until the Suns have the pieces in place to start a real rebuild -- and it will take years even to get to that point -- Nash isn't doing any harm.

i really disagree with this. Nash will keep us at 40 wins forever, which will keep us from ever actually getting that high draft pick that most teams need to get which ultimately turns their team around. it's really that simple to me. with sarver as our owner, i don't believe we'll ever really be a destination for FAs like we used to be and most superstar FA just signed 5 year deals anyway, so our only hope moving forward IMO is to bottom out and rebuild through the draft. If Nash can net us a first round pick, or a futute first round pick, I don't see why the team would rather win 40 games and either squeak into the playoffs and get killed or just barely miss the playoffs and get late lotto picks which we obviously have very little idea what to do with.

i just don't know what the point of winning 40 games, almost making the playoffs and being stuck with draft picks around the Robin Lopez/Earl Clark area for the foreseeable future. that's what i see with Nash continuing on this team.

 

[Suns_fan69]

You mean all star PG Mo Williams?

I think what Eric was trying to say was that what the value Cavaliers (not clippers) got was from the pick, not the player.

 

[jbeecham]

I think the only way we trade Nash is if he wants to go. Otherwise, let him retire with the Suns & obviously put him in the ring of honor. The ownership has lost a lot of class since Sarver took over & trading Nash (if he still wants to be here) just because he's old & you want some value for him.... would continue to destroy the reputation of the organization.

As far as All-star free agents not wanting to come here... they don't want to go anywhere that's not a big market. They're all trying to build superteams like in Miami & we haven't had salary cap space to sign any of them anyways.

 

[Cheesebeef]

As far as All-star free agents not wanting to come here... they don't want to go anywhere that's not a big market. They're all trying to build superteams like in Miami & we haven't had salary cap space to sign any of them anyways.

which is exactly the reason the team needs to bottom out and strike the lotto... probably a couple times. it's the only way a team like OKC or SA would have ever gotten good.

 

[elindholm]

I think what Eric was trying to say was that what the value Cavaliers (not clippers) got was from the pick, not the player.

Actually what I meant was that the value that the Clippers received in return was in exchange for giving up the pick as an asset, not for dumping Davis. But it's basically the same thing.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm up for trading Nash if he wants to leave and there's a good offer, but I'm still waiting for anyone to explain why getting rid of him just for the sake of doing it would help the rebuilding process.

Your comments hit the nail on the head. If the Suns cannot trade Nash for value, the Suns should address other needs, specifically a SG and a FC that can relieve Gortat and Frye. However, I do think Nash is disheartened with the Suns FO with all the player changes to a team that played in the WCF last season. He may want out irregardless which may force a trade, good or bad.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Your comments hit the nail on the head. If the Suns cannot trade Nash for value, the Suns should address other needs, specifically a SG and a FC that can relieve Gortat and Frye. However, I do think Nash is disheartened with the Suns FO with all the player changes to a team that played in the WCF last season. He may want out irregardless which may force a trade, good or bad.

Agree with all of this, and based on the not so subtle hints of his agent, it sounds like he wants to leave. I can't blame him, and frankly feel that the Suns should honor his wishes no matter what the return. We all know it's not going to be much, and this FO/ownership group is in dire need of some good press. Holding Nash hostage with so little to gain makes no sense to me.

Oh, and irregardless isn't a word.

 

[sunsfan88]

How are we getting Gortat from the Hawks?

Ny bad I meant Hinrich would you understand if you saw the lineup beneath it.

 

[sunsfan88]

I wonder if we can work a trade with the Clippers for Nash. They can make a good tandem of Nash, Griffin and Gordon. They would also instantly be contenders.

Plus they have some good young pieces we can ask for in return.

 

[Chaplin]

I'm up for trading Nash if he wants to leave and there's a good offer, but I'm still waiting for anyone to explain why getting rid of him just for the sake of doing it would help the rebuilding process.

Depends on the thread. If it's specifically about getting rid of Nash, it really doesn't matter to them what we get back in return. Anything to give him a shot at a title, even if it's for a late round draft pick that only has a 30% chance of actually staying with the team--and probably LESS chance of staying with the team beyond his rookie contract.

I'm guessing most people don't think Nash helps us if he stays, but for some reason him leaving would accelerate the rebuilding process.. Him leaving isn't going to make the rebuild go any faster. Now, signing him to a 5-year extension probably would, but one more year? That's not going to affect us, except to allow any younger players we DO get (through the draft or trade/FA) to learn a bit from one of the best players in NBA history.

People want to get rid of him to start the rebuild process. Thing is, we don't have to give him away for nothing to start it. If we can get value, fine, trade him, but don't trade him just to trade him without anything to help us in our rebuild. That's just bad business from top to bottom.