SI: Blow it up

YouJustGotSUNSD

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http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/ian_thomsen/01/20/suns/index.html?eref=T1

BOSTON -- Steve Kerr isn't going to like this, but he needs to make another trade. Maybe a lot of trades.

The Suns' general manager extended his neck already by trading for Shaquille O'Neal, and replacing coach Mike D'Antoni with Terry Porter, and acquiring Jason Richardson at the expense of Boris Diaw and Steve Nash's close friend Raja Bell. But Kerr can't stop there, because the Suns remain a team of gaudy parts that form an inefficient engine. Altogether, they produce too little energy and too much exhaust.

All of the talk before their game Monday night in Boston was of how they appeared to be coming together and finding a medium style that benefited the strengths of both Nash and Shaq. The Suns had scored 100 points or more in the last 10 games, and their core stars looked rejuvenated and promising in each other's company.

And then 10 minutes into the first quarter, the Celtics had them down 30-13. It was 56-24 more than three minutes before intermission. Never in the half did the Suns total more field goals than turnovers.

With thanks to the informed counsel I received around the Suns' locker room after the game, here is their problem: They spend too much effort on compromise and not enough on sacrifice, and meanwhile the team suffers. The Suns are a respectable 23-16 overall, but they are a revealing 6-10 against their rival eight playoff contenders in the West. How can a team of Nash, Shaq, Amaré Stoudemire, Grant Hill, Jason Richardson and Leandro Barbosa -- each a celebrated name unto himself -- be so ineffectual as a group? The answer, as brought to my attention by one Suns insider after the game, can be found in the example of the team that had just finished kicking them up and down the floor.

The Celtics are a lot like the Suns. Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce and Ray Allen were accomplished stars who -- like Nash, Stoudemire and Hill -- had never starred for accomplished teams. They had never reached an NBA Finals. The Celtics won their championship by focusing not on their needs as individuals but on the needs of the team. They became obsessed with making the extra pass and rotating to cover for each other defensively.
"I had a group of guys that were very willing to be coached and weren't stuck on who they were,'' Celtics coach Doc Rivers said. "I hear guys say they want to win it, but I think what they're really saying is, 'I want to win it as long as I can keep doing what I do.' I had three stars who said they wanted to win and they would change to do it. I don't think you get that a lot.''

The Suns have been trying to change. Shaq has accepted a lesser role, Nash's scoring is down (to 14.4 points) and Hill has been "an All-NBA defender,'' according to Kerr. But do they really believe deep down that they can make it work? Are they truly married to the mission? They still don't blend as a team, and a 104-87 collapse against Boston demonstrates that they aren't committed to the fine details that separate contenders like the Celtics and Spurs from all of the pretenders who never can quite understand the difference between winning and losing.

Let me say that I tend to be extremely conservative when it comes to slamming the door on contenders. My instinct is to not rule out the chances of any team as talented as these Suns with a half-season still to play. But we've all seen the commitment the Spurs and Celtics have made, and the team-first discipline the Lakers, Cavaliers and Magic are creating -- and these Suns don't look like they have that kind of commitment or discipline in them.

I'm not questioning their heart -- Shaq has won four championships and Nash wants to win badly -- but I doubt their functionality as a group. It doesn't matter that they were concluding a back-to-back or playing for the fourth time in five days; a championship team would have embraced the challenge of playing in Boston against the Celtics. What does the Suns' reaction say about them?

They face three options that I can see.
• No. 1: Look for their version of Chauncey Billups. The Nuggets were trying to create a more disciplined approach, but it didn't come together until they traded a finisher (Allen Iverson) for a creator (Billups). One option Kerr may consider is packaging Stoudemire for a lesser frontcourt star, a Luis Scola type. Would Miami be interested in Stoudemire for Udonis Haslem and other pieces? (Andrei Kirilenko is another frontcourt defender who could help glue a lot of the holes in Phoenix, but it's hard to see Jerry Sloan embracing Stoudemire.)
• No. 2: Wait until 2010. Stoudemire can become a free agent that summer, when the contracts of Nash and Shaq also expire to create max cap space. In the meantime, however, Nash and Shaq (and maybe Hill) could grow frustrated that their biological clocks are ticking down when they could be contributing to a championship contender.
• No. 3: Start over. This is a radical plan, and I don't envision it happening anytime soon. But if you're going to rebuild the team anyway, would you rather do it now or later? Especially when Nash and Shaq are playing at a high level?
Nash could fit with any number of contenders while also coming off the cap in 2010. And I don't agree that Shaq is untradable, especially now that he's talking about extending his career. If he plays through the season at this rate, he'll enter the summer as a championship center putting up strong numbers with a $21 million expiring contract. He and Nash will have value in every realm, including the box office.
While I don't agree with all his ideas, he makes some damn good points.
 

elindholm

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The only viable options are:

1. Stand pat until 2010, hoping things work themselves out, and if they don't, start with as clean a slate as possible that summer.

or

2. Trade Stoudemire.

Any other strategy is just plain silly.
 

Divide Et Impera

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I would take a Stoudemire for Haslem+ trade, but the problem is that MIA, aside from Beasley, doesn't have the '+' part of that equation. Does anyone really believe that they would send Haslem/Beasley for Amare? Eh. I'm not so sure at this point. We can't ignore that the ENTIRE NBA knows that when they gameplan against us, weakest link #1 is Amare....

Frankly, I don't even see how Beasley would help us anyways, nor Haslem for that matter.

POR has Aldridge and Outlaw (Stat/Leo for Aldridge/Pryz/Outlay/Blake), so they could be a legitimate go-to team in a trade, but would they even want to mess with what they have?

CHA has Okeafor/Wallace (Stat/Lopez/Tucker), but would they go to the well with us again and does Okeafor even help things here anyways? I like him a lot as a player, but how does he work with Shaq AND Wallace, who is a player I have wanted here for years, is a huge redundancy with all the wings we already have.

ATL has Horford/Smith (Stat/Leo for Horford/Smith/Zaza/Claxton), but they are having a good year, Smith is not even back to form and what incentive would they have? This would actually be a GREAT trade for us (Nash-Richardson-Smith-Horford-O'Neal) and it leaves ATL strong (Bibby-Johnson-Williams-Stoudemire-????), but with NO ONE in the middle. Hell, I would even follow this trade up with a TOR trade to net us Calderon+ for Nash.

CHI has a lot of players that could be combined to work, but would a Stat/Tucker/Lopez/Dudley for Thomas/Hinrich/Gooden trade work? I'm not sure that is the right value and I think I would want a #1 back, unconditional.

The authors HOU idea doesn't work because to get Scola for Stoudemire, we need A LOT of salary back and their top 4 salaries (the only ones that would work) are McGrady, Ming, Artest and Battier.

We could turn to MEM and get Warrick/Milicic/#1 for Stat, but that is a hard rebuild move, so we'd then probably end up having to move Shaq and Nash and maybe even JRich.

Stat/Leo to MIN for Jefferson/Miller/McCants? Talk about a logjam on the wing! Besides, why would MIN get rid of a legitimate blue collar, lunch pail worker in Jefferson for a less effective prima donna in Stat? I would like this trade, but man we would need some serious follow up moves.

Stat/Dudley to NJ for Lopez/Simmons/Yi? No desire here.

Stat to NO for West/Posey? Why would NO want to mess up what they are building? West is all heart and hustle, but his productivity is even less than Amare's out of the same spot. However, I don't think anyone would be disappointed with him here.

Stat/Leo to NY for Lee/Chandler/Jeffries/James/Rose? I like this one a lot because Lee is an absolute stud who I wanted to trade Marion for. NY ends up looking good, we end up looking good and the salaries work. This is my #1 scenario
 

mojorizen7

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I would take a Stoudemire for Haslem+ trade, but the problem is that MIA, aside from Beasley, doesn't have the '+' part of that equation. Does anyone really believe that they would send Haslem/Beasley for Amare? Eh. I'm not so sure at this point. We can't ignore that the ENTIRE NBA knows that when they gameplan against us, weakest link #1 is Amare....

Frankly, I don't even see how Beasley would help us anyways, nor Haslem for that matter.

POR has Aldridge and Outlaw (Stat/Leo for Aldridge/Pryz/Outlay/Blake), so they could be a legitimate go-to team in a trade, but would they even want to mess with what they have?

CHA has Okeafor/Wallace (Stat/Lopez/Tucker), but would they go to the well with us again and does Okeafor even help things here anyways? I like him a lot as a player, but how does he work with Shaq AND Wallace, who is a player I have wanted here for years, is a huge redundancy with all the wings we already have.

ATL has Horford/Smith (Stat/Leo for Horford/Smith/Zaza/Claxton), but they are having a good year, Smith is not even back to form and what incentive would they have? This would actually be a GREAT trade for us (Nash-Richardson-Smith-Horford-O'Neal) and it leaves ATL strong (Bibby-Johnson-Williams-Stoudemire-????), but with NO ONE in the middle. Hell, I would even follow this trade up with a TOR trade to net us Calderon+ for Nash.

CHI has a lot of players that could be combined to work, but would a Stat/Tucker/Lopez/Dudley for Thomas/Hinrich/Gooden trade work? I'm not sure that is the right value and I think I would want a #1 back, unconditional.

The authors HOU idea doesn't work because to get Scola for Stoudemire, we need A LOT of salary back and their top 4 salaries (the only ones that would work) are McGrady, Ming, Artest and Battier.

We could turn to MEM and get Warrick/Milicic/#1 for Stat, but that is a hard rebuild move, so we'd then probably end up having to move Shaq and Nash and maybe even JRich.

Stat/Leo to MIN for Jefferson/Miller/McCants? Talk about a logjam on the wing! Besides, why would MIN get rid of a legitimate blue collar, lunch pail worker in Jefferson for a less effective prima donna in Stat? I would like this trade, but man we would need some serious follow up moves.

Stat/Dudley to NJ for Lopez/Simmons/Yi? No desire here.

Stat to NO for West/Posey? Why would NO want to mess up what they are building? West is all heart and hustle, but his productivity is even less than Amare's out of the same spot. However, I don't think anyone would be disappointed with him here.

Stat/Leo to NY for Lee/Chandler/Jeffries/James/Rose? I like this one a lot because Lee is an absolute stud who I wanted to trade Marion for. NY ends up looking good, we end up looking good and the salaries work. This is my #1 scenario
I posted a scenario similar to this in the trade forum.
My thinking was that the hawks(having a defensive/rebounding stud in the middle with Horford) may be willing to part with Josh Smith in order to plug Amare in there to just simply score score score.
 

AceP

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"I had a group of guys that were very willing to be coached and weren't stuck on who they were,'' Celtics coach Doc Rivers said. "I hear guys say they want to win it, but I think what they're really saying is, 'I want to win it as long as I can keep doing what I do.' I had three stars who said they wanted to win and they would change to do it. I don't think you get that a lot.''

The Suns have been trying to change. Shaq has accepted a lesser role, Nash's scoring is down (to 14.4 points) and Hill has been "an All-NBA defender,'' according to Kerr. But do they really believe deep down that they can make it work? Are they truly married to the mission? They still don't blend as a team, and a 104-87 collapse against Boston demonstrates that they aren't committed to the fine details that separate contenders like the Celtics and Spurs from all of the pretenders who never can quite understand the difference between winning and losing.
In the second paragraph, about doing change for the team, is there a name missing? The sentenses I marked red, sounds exactly what is the problem on the missing name.

Some1 will always only talk the talk, never walk the walk.
 

Mainstreet

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In the second paragraph, about doing change for the team, is there a name missing? The sentenses I marked red, sounds exactly what is the problem on the missing name.

Some1 will always only talk the talk, never walk the walk.

If you are talking about Amare, why not say it.
 

arwillan

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It's not that nash doesn't want to change to do it all. He is who he is as a player. He isn't chauncey, he isn't a defender, and he isn't going to suddenly become those things now. Amare, on the other hand, is the one i'd say is unwilling to change. He wants to score points, not rebound, and make flashy plays. That is a huge part of the problem in itself.
 

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I talked with a few Chicago fans, it should be very easy to make a deal with them, and it won't be necessary to assemble a complicated deal including a lot of players.

They want to unload Hinrich very badly, as Derrick Rose occupied PG full time. They would rather keep Larry Hughes other than Hinrich. Hinrich is too short for SG, and they have already got an undersized SG Gordon, who is one of the best in off bench scoring. Hinrich also has a longer contract, 4 years vs 2 of Hughes.

They would LOVE to have Amare, they have been looooooooooooooong for a scoring big man. They don't have pressure to contend until maybe 2011. Derrick + Amare should be a very explosive 1-2 punch, making them fun to watch.

Amare for Hughes + Noah or Tyrus Thomas, it works straight up and I would even bargain with them to make sure it is Noah, and/or get a pick.

Or, Amare + Lopez for Hinrich + Drew Gooden + their first round this year, which is lottery bound. Drew Gooden is a great role player, very good rebound rate, very hustle.

Such a deal would improve us immediately, if the chemistry and tactic adjustment gets right, we should be able to put up a fight in playoff.
 

arwillan

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I talked with a few Chicago fans, it should be very easy to make a deal with them, and it won't be necessary to assemble a complicated deal including a lot of players.

They want to unload Hinrich very badly, as Derrick Rose occupied PG full time. They would rather keep Larry Hughes other than Hinrich. Hinrich is too short for SG, and they have already got an undersized SG Gordon, who is one of the best in off bench scoring. Hinrich also has a longer contract, 4 years vs 2 of Hughes.

They would LOVE to have Amare, they have been looooooooooooooong for a scoring big man. They don't have pressure to contend until maybe 2011. Derrick + Amare should be a very explosive 1-2 punch, making them fun to watch.

Amare for Hughes + Noah or Tyrus Thomas, it works straight up and I would even bargain with them to make sure it is Noah, and/or get a pick.

Or, Amare + Lopez for Hinrich + Drew Gooden + their first round this year, which is lottery bound. Drew Gooden is a great role player, very good rebound rate, very hustle.

Such a deal would improve us immediately, if the chemistry and tactic adjustment gets right, we should be able to put up a fight in playoff.

1) Ben Gordon has started 36 games this year. He doesn't come off the bench there.

2) No way do they want to keep hughes over Hinrich. Hughes is about equal to Ricky Davis. He constantly whines about coming off the bench and is hurt quite a bit. Hinrich is at least a productive player. Granted, Hinrich is probably more valuable in a trade.

3) Gooden is a Hustle player? Is that a joke? he is one of the laziest players in the league. He is a low character guy, doesn't play defense, and is difficult to coach. Ask any other cleveland fan on the planet how they feel about Hughes and Gooden. They're both trash, which is why they're always brought up in trade talks.

4) Amare for Hughes and Thomas makes us a contender in the playoffs? Seriously, are you smoking crack at this very moment? Thomas is essentially a bust. Hughes SUCKS. Seriously, he takes almost as many bad shots as the rest of the league combined. He's not a good three point shooter for his career (though this year his percentage is up a bit), he doesn't play defense, he has one of the worst contracts in the league (only behind Rashard Lewis and Wally Szczerbiak), and he is already complaining about a lack of playing time (and he's getting 26 minutes). Do you think he'd get any more than that behind J Rich and Barbosa? No way.


I'm seriously waiting for you to reply and say that was a joke. Those trades are atrocious at best. Not even Sarver would support something like that. You're making me want to cry thinking about losing amare for hughes and thomas.
 

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No deal with the Heat, the only possible deal is Amare for Haslem + Beasley. Haslem might help us immediately, but Beasley is a very riskly pick, he looks like very much another Amare, offense only, flashy, me-first attitude, I would take Noah or Tyrus Thomas instead. And such a deal doesn't help our perimeter defence a little bit.

Hinrich should do great for us just as Billups did to Denver. This guy can defend any PG in the league, take care of the ball and shoot well. We'll definitely see Nash's minutes reduced to under 30, so he could be more efficient. Our second unit will no longer need Barnes to create who turn the ball over too much.
 

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Ok, Awillan, I back off from Gooden part, I dont know him very well, maybe those bulls fans r trying to sell him on me. And I always like Noah way ahead of Thomas.

But I watched Hinrich a lot b4, he is a great defender. And, career 37.7% 3p is pretty good. We want a backup PG, he is more than good enough for that job.

We r not talking about a deal in our favor, I expect a fair improvement.
 
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AceP

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1. They want to get rid of both Larry Hughes and Kirk Hinrich if possible, there's no doubt about it.

2. It was Hughes complaining about PT, not Hinrich. I just double checked major medias, haven't found any recent articles regarding Hinrich "unhappy about his playing time or role". Maybe there was such thing in lesser channel such as blogs.

3. Hughes's contract ends b4 the huge Lebron summer, 2010. We all know the meaning of it.

4. Hinrich's contract has 4 years left, too long too expensive for a backup of Derrick Rose. For us, Nash is leaving in a year or 2, we need an acceptable PG to play games anyway, and we certainly don't expect to contend by then. So it might be an acceptable solution balancing this season and future.

Awillan, forum is for discussion, u don't need to be too aggressive or too emotional, especially on trade talk. U actually got one thing right here, trade talk by fans r pretty much just JOKE. None of our suggestion would happen. For me, it is just an after meal cigar, blow some smoke and have fun. Take it easy, man.
 
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arwillan

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Hinrich would be wonderful to have, but nobody else on chicago interests me. Maybe in a 3 team deal that would send Hinrich and a young Pf/C here for amare would work. Definitely no thomas/noah though. those guys are more or less busts, especially thomas. a huge waste of athleticism.
 

arwillan

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I would go for something like
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/featur...81~3224~3032&teams=21~4~12~21~12~12&te=&cash=

the clippers would probably demand a pick from chicago and/or phoenix. but when kaman hurt so often, he isn't helping them much anyway. plus, they already have randolph and camby up front (who work well together when healthy, imo).

I'm no good at designing trades and realize the above is unlikely, but something like that that brings a young big and guard in for amare is what i'd go for. otherwise, i say keep him.
 

TucsonDevil

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Not to rain on the parade, but why do some of you include Tucker and Lopez in trades? Other teams have to WANT players if they send away starting talent. I would understand if you are trying to match salaries, but that isn't the case. Tucker has almost no trade value, and Lopez has a value just over zero.
 

elindholm

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Tucker has almost no trade value, and Lopez has a value just over zero.

Tucker has precisely zero trade value, not "almost" none. And Lopez's value is less than zero. It's incredibly obvious that he's a hopeless bust, so who wants to pay his salary for a year and a half?
 

arwillan

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Not to rain on the parade, but why do some of you include Tucker and Lopez in trades? Other teams have to WANT players if they send away starting talent. I would understand if you are trying to match salaries, but that isn't the case. Tucker has almost no trade value, and Lopez has a value just over zero.


i only threw it on because the salaries were off by about 500k without him. that's all. i realize he's not worth anything
 

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And Lopez's value is less than zero. It's incredibly obvious that he's a hopeless bust, so who wants to pay his salary for a year and a half?

Lopez may be a bust but it is too early to label him a bust, especially at the age of 19. He needs minutes and strength conditioning. I do agree his trade value is probably near zero.
 

Divide Et Impera

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They are included solely for salary purposes. It's no big deal. If they are useless to the new team, they are cut and become FAs....
 

TucsonDevil

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They are included solely for salary purposes. It's no big deal. If they are useless to the new team, they are cut and become FAs....

So in other words... "Hey GM, give us Okefor and Wallace for Stat"..? I don't know a GM that would do that trade


...oh wait, its MJ on the other line... OK, I see you working it.
 

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Amare to the Blazers for LaMarcus Aldridge?
 

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I would take a Stoudemire for Haslem+ trade, but the problem is that MIA, aside from Beasley, doesn't have the '+' part of that equation. Does anyone really believe that they would send Haslem/Beasley for Amare? Eh. I'm not so sure at this point. We can't ignore that the ENTIRE NBA knows that when they gameplan against us, weakest link #1 is Amare....

Frankly, I don't even see how Beasley would help us anyways, nor Haslem for that matter.

POR has Aldridge and Outlaw (Stat/Leo for Aldridge/Pryz/Outlay/Blake), so they could be a legitimate go-to team in a trade, but would they even want to mess with what they have?

CHA has Okeafor/Wallace (Stat/Lopez/Tucker), but would they go to the well with us again and does Okeafor even help things here anyways? I like him a lot as a player, but how does he work with Shaq AND Wallace, who is a player I have wanted here for years, is a huge redundancy with all the wings we already have.

ATL has Horford/Smith (Stat/Leo for Horford/Smith/Zaza/Claxton), but they are having a good year, Smith is not even back to form and what incentive would they have? This would actually be a GREAT trade for us (Nash-Richardson-Smith-Horford-O'Neal) and it leaves ATL strong (Bibby-Johnson-Williams-Stoudemire-????), but with NO ONE in the middle. Hell, I would even follow this trade up with a TOR trade to net us Calderon+ for Nash.

CHI has a lot of players that could be combined to work, but would a Stat/Tucker/Lopez/Dudley for Thomas/Hinrich/Gooden trade work? I'm not sure that is the right value and I think I would want a #1 back, unconditional.

The authors HOU idea doesn't work because to get Scola for Stoudemire, we need A LOT of salary back and their top 4 salaries (the only ones that would work) are McGrady, Ming, Artest and Battier.

We could turn to MEM and get Warrick/Milicic/#1 for Stat, but that is a hard rebuild move, so we'd then probably end up having to move Shaq and Nash and maybe even JRich.

Stat/Leo to MIN for Jefferson/Miller/McCants? Talk about a logjam on the wing! Besides, why would MIN get rid of a legitimate blue collar, lunch pail worker in Jefferson for a less effective prima donna in Stat? I would like this trade, but man we would need some serious follow up moves.

Stat/Dudley to NJ for Lopez/Simmons/Yi? No desire here.

Stat to NO for West/Posey? Why would NO want to mess up what they are building? West is all heart and hustle, but his productivity is even less than Amare's out of the same spot. However, I don't think anyone would be disappointed with him here.

Stat/Leo to NY for Lee/Chandler/Jeffries/James/Rose? I like this one a lot because Lee is an absolute stud who I wanted to trade Marion for. NY ends up looking good, we end up looking good and the salaries work. This is my #1 scenario

How about Utah?

Amar'e and Tucker/Lopez for Millsap and Kirilenko works salary wise. Millsap has been tearing it up while Boozer has been out which probably makes Utah less inclined to make such a trade with Boozer able to opt out. Amare could be Boozer insurance, but if I was Utah I'd rather have Millsap. Also, I recall Sloan and AK47 having problems. I think that was a couple seasons ago so I'm not sure if that is still the case. Millsap is also a free agent this summer, he would have to be extended and given a hefty raise from his paltry $700,000 salary, so it probably won't work cap-wise for the Suns.

One of my favorite deals is with OKC. Amar'e for Wilcox, Westbrook, filler contract, and our g.d. 2010 pick back. Wilcox gives you the Haslem type player you wanted in you Miami deal. Westbrook has been impressive and he gives us a PG of the future. Lastly we get our 2010 pick back that never should have been traded in the first place. The thought of that pick scares the crap out of me. It also leaves OKC with Durant, Amar'e, and Green as a nucleus. And hey, if they need a pg in return, I guess we could part with Dragic.;)

I guess all of this speculation depends on how Amar'e is viewed among the GM's around the league and if Kerr is even open to moving him.
 

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