Simmons traded to Giants for a 7th

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Thought doesn't equal reality. We acquired Carson freaking Palmer for a sixth.

Who knows. It's a contingency move. If McCoy is done, then the Cardinals are most likely screwed relying on Tune because of his lack of experience.

Here's my biggest issue with the nattering nabobs of negativity: this is all fringe players and fringe assets and the usual crowd is making a massive deal over it. It's hilarious and annoying at the same time. It's a fifth round pick!!! The actual hit rate of a fifth round pick years later is miniscule.

Look at a draft four years ago and look at 1) how many fifth rounders became starters 2) how many are with the team that drafted them. It's like 5% of the fifth round draftees that meet that criteria, maybe even lower.

Actually, the only one making “a massive deal over it” is you. People are criticizing moves our gm makes. That’s not unusual. Every teams fans do it. No one is crying “the sky is falling” or calling for Ossi’s head. But you keep stating people are “making a massive deal” about the moves, continue calling posters names (nattering nabobs of negativity - nice tautogram), and calling out all speculation (which ironically is approximately 90% of all sports messaging board content).

The irony is that you and I are likely separated by inches in regards to these moves. We both recognize that most of them aren’t significant moves. We both agree the team will be dreadful. We both agree we are hoping for a terribke season for draft position. But those inches end up with you on one side of the line of demarcation. And me on the other. I think it boils down to this:

I view these moves through the ongoing lens of a historically awful organization. So I don’t give the moves the benefit of the doubt. Just the opposite, my view is “cardinals until proven otherwise.”

You view these moves through some other lens. I won’t characterize the lens. But your position is to give the organization the benefit of the doubt on each move. Even the obvious failures like losing draft value for tampering is dismissed by you.

So basically we straddle the line between “meh, same old cards” and “meh, let’s what we got” imo.

 

[kerouac9]

Just the opposite, my view is “cardinals until proven otherwise.”

#birdcity until proven otherwise

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It is telling. What it tells us is that if Watson is out and any backup has to play they are screwed anyway. So it might as well be DTR and a 5th.

And if Watson is out any length of time, it's likely Stefanski gets a pass anyway. Depending on where they sit when that happens.

If the Brown's are 7-3 and Watson is done for the year no way they fire Stefanski. So Dobbs don't matter.

If the brown's are 3-7 and Watson is done for the year, Stefanski is screwed. So Dobb's don't matter.

Every team hoping to make the playoffs is interested in having the best backup QB available possible. If that guy can get you an extra w it might mean the difference between playoffs and staying home. To say the coach/front office dismisses the importance of the backup QB on the browns is the stuff of silliness.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

For me he had 0 value and will be out of the league in a couple of years. He's just bad at football. So a 7th was a bonus considering he was gone next year.

I'd rather have the 7th than Simmons stick around as a locker room cancer while he steals 150 snaps at Edge that Myjai Sanders should be getting.

Now he’s a locker room cancer. You can’t make up the spin.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Actually, the only one making “a massive deal over it” is you. People are criticizing moves our gm makes. That’s not unusual. Every teams fans do it. No one is crying “the sky is falling” or calling for Ossi’s head. But you keep stating people are “making a massive deal” about the moves, continue calling posters names (nattering nabobs of negativity - nice tautogram), and calling out all speculation (which ironically is approximately 90% of all sports messaging board content).

The irony is that you and I are likely separated by inches in regards to these moves. We both recognize that most of them aren’t significant moves. We both agree the team will be dreadful. We both agree we are hoping for a terribke season for draft position. But those inches end up with you on one side of the line of demarcation. And me on the other. I think it boils down to this:

I view these moves through the ongoing lens of a historically awful organization. So I don’t give the moves the benefit of the doubt. Just the opposite, my view is “cardinals until proven otherwise.”

You view these moves through some other lens. I won’t characterize the lens. But your position is to give the organization the benefit of the doubt on each move. Even the obvious failures like losing draft value for tampering is dismissed by you.

So basically we straddle the line between “meh, same old cards” and “meh, let’s what we got” imo.

Each iteration of the team is different. Since Michael has taken over he has shown a better ability than his father to identify solid football people. Even for all his warts, Keim won a Executive of the Year award.

My point is that we don't really know how Monti and JG are going to work out and using the historical bias is just that, a bias.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Each iteration of the team is different. Since Michael has taken over he has shown a better ability than his father to identify solid football people. Even for all his warts, Keim won a Executive of the Year award.

My point is that we don't really know how Monti and JG are going to work out and using the historical bias is just that, a bias.

You're seriously going to paint the Keim era as some sort of success? When all the years basically match up with one head coach, it ain't the GM.

To use Keim as part of a narrative to sell Michael's ability to identify solid football people is pretty wild. Where are all these solid football people that are coveted/taken by other teams/organizations? Where is the Michael Bidwill tree?

 

[kerouac9]

You're seriously going to paint the Keim era as some sort of success? When all the years basically match up with one head coach, it ain't the GM.

To use Keim as part of a narrative to sell Michael's ability to identify solid football people is pretty wild. Where are all these solid football people that are coveted/taken by other teams/organizations? Where is the Michael Bidwill tree?

Maybe not a success, but possibly an evolution beyond Rod Graves.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Actually, the only one making “a massive deal over it” is you. People are criticizing moves our gm makes. That’s not unusual. Every teams fans do it. No one is crying “the sky is falling” or calling for Ossi’s head. But you keep stating people are “making a massive deal” about the moves, continue calling posters names (nattering nabobs of negativity - nice tautogram), and calling out all speculation (which ironically is approximately 90% of all sports messaging board content).

The irony is that you and I are likely separated by inches in regards to these moves. We both recognize that most of them aren’t significant moves. We both agree the team will be dreadful. We both agree we are hoping for a terribke season for draft position. But those inches end up with you on one side of the line of demarcation. And me on the other. I think it boils down to this:

I view these moves through the ongoing lens of a historically awful organization. So I don’t give the moves the benefit of the doubt. Just the opposite, my view is “cardinals until proven otherwise.”

You view these moves through some other lens. I won’t characterize the lens. But your position is to give the organization the benefit of the doubt on each move. Even the obvious failures like losing draft value for tampering is dismissed by you.

So basically we straddle the line between “meh, same old cards” and “meh, let’s what we got” imo.

Also the issue is really that a crowd of about 6-10 people crap on every thread with their negativity. I've talked to at least 5-6 other people via PM to include a few moderators about how much these people drag the board down at times with their negativity.

It makes following the Cardinals on this board a burden at times and saps the enjoyment out of discussing the team. I am not the only person who feels this way, far from it from what I've gathered.

So I push back against it because some of the negativity gets absurd. Even with this most recent discussion on why the Cardinals didn't sign Joshua Dobbs, the "Darksiders" did their typical bashing of the team with no information, bashing the team for not signing Dobbs. This morning an article effectively proved them wrong about why he signed with Cleveland instead....he wanted to stay in Cleveland! It's as simple as that.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Maybe not a success, but possibly an evolution beyond Rod Graves.

Rod Graves drafted some pretty good players...a best of or general draft overall from Graves vs. Keim would be interesting.

 

[Krangodnzr]

You're seriously going to paint the Keim era as some sort of success? When all the years basically match up with one head coach, it ain't the GM.

STRAWMAN!

Kerouac got it.

To use Keim as part of a narrative to sell Michael's ability to identify solid football people is pretty wild.

STRAWMAN!

All I said was that Michael has shown improvement over his father, not that he is good.

 

[kerouac9]

Rod Graves drafted some pretty good players...a best of or general draft overall from Graves vs. Keim would be interesting.

Graves drafted some good players, but his free agency periods were a catastrophe, along with his ability/willingness to re-sign homegrown talent.

The draft is a crap shoot, and Graves probably had to manage the owner as much or more than Keim did.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

I'm literally nauseous right now.

Sick to my stomach at how far we've fallen from 10-2 in 2021.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

All I said was that Michael has shown improvement over his father, not that he is good.

I think people oversell the difference. The Athletic survey last year surely didn't make it sound like much has changed...we were bottom of the league in pretty much everything, and much of that had to do with how the team treats the players/families.

Then, this bombshell comes out: https://www.si.com/nfl/cardinals/analysis/arizona-cardinals-voted-most-unstable-franchise-nfl-agents

9 of 23! That's horrifying. Part of fixing any problem is recognizing it exists. Agents and players continually tell us that things haven't materially changed. I don't know why some don't listen to them.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Now he’s a locker room cancer. You can’t make up the spin.

He literally did not say that he was. He said that he could be sitting on the bench, and there is a realistic chance that could happen with a former top ten picks sitting on the bench.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Graves drafted some good players, but his free agency periods were a catastrophe, along with his ability/willingness to re-sign homegrown talent.

Which is why I focused on his draft history - if anything, Graves faced much bigger challenges than Keim before slotted contracts.

The draft is a crap shoot, and Graves probably had to manage the owner as much or more than Keim did.

No doubt.

Someone did the work for me!

Rod Graves vs Steve Keim Top 10 Picks

I thought it would be fun to compare the top 10 picks from the last two GM’s of the Cardinals. I’ll start with Rod Graves’ top 10 picks and mention that he was GM much longer than Keim has been GM (Rod was in charge from 97’-12’ & Keim has been GM since 13’) With that said, here are my...

www.arizonasportsfans.com

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Each iteration of the team is different. Since Michael has taken over he has shown a better ability than his father to identify solid football people. Even for all his warts, Keim won a Executive of the Year award.

My point is that we don't really know how Monti and JG are going to work out and using the historical bias is just that, a bias.

You can call it bias, but what it really is, is evidenced based scrutiny. The head of this dysfunctional organization remains in charge. The current iteration of front office and coaching staff have never worked as a single unit together, nor in the roles they currently occupy. We have already seen cracks in operation. It is more reasonable to rely on the leaderships failed history than purely speculative (your favorite word) unearned benefit of the doubt at this juncture.

And using bill as your benchmark is a flawed analysis from the get-go. And you know that.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Also the issue is really that a crowd of about 6-10 people crap on every thread with their negativity. I've talked to at least 5-6 other people via PM to include a few moderators about how much these people drag the board down at times with their negativity.

It makes following the Cardinals on this board a burden at times and saps the enjoyment out of discussing the team. I am not the only person who feels this way, far from it from what I've gathered.

So I push back against it because some of the negativity gets absurd. Even with this most recent discussion on why the Cardinals didn't sign Joshua Dobbs, the "Darksiders" did their typical bashing of the team with no information, bashing the team for not signing Dobbs. This morning an article effectively proved them wrong about why he signed with Cleveland instead....he wanted to stay in Cleveland! It's as simple as that.

I’m glad you reported people discussion football. How freaking awful is that? Particularly when those same members of this community don’t report you and others for constantly attacking them as posters. Honestly, people are entitled to their different opinions. Put them on ignore if you don’t want to read them. Unfortunately ASFN has long been known for allowing a subset of posters to bash posters who express an opinion that doesn’t agree with theirs (and not the opinion itself). Your constant use of derogatory nicknames without consequence is a great example of this. Maybe take a moment and recognize that there’s always two sides to sports: winning and losing. One makes you feel good and one makes you feel bad. Thus it shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone on a sports board, much less about a team whose legacy has been far more losing than winning, that there are two sides to every discussion. Shame on you for your garbage. And frankly, shame on the board for allowing it to continue forever.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

.

I'd rather have the 7th than Simmons stick around as a locker room cancer while he steals 150 snaps at Edge that Myjai Sanders should be getting.

@Krangodnzr - tell me again he didn’t say Simmons would be a locker room cancer.

 

[Krangodnzr]

You can call it bias, but what it really is, is evidenced based scrutiny. The head of this dysfunctional organization remains in charge.

I think most human beings will make major changes when embarrassed to the extent that Michael has been. One can hope that he will, and it's reasonable to assume he mostly will because he already made major changes from his father.

The current iteration of front office and coaching staff have never worked as a single unit together, nor in the roles they currently occupy.

This is fairly common in the NFL. I don't see this is really a negative.

We have already seen cracks in operation.

You see the cracks that you want to see that are painted from a historical perspective that isn't necessarily applicable to the current team.

It is more reasonable to rely on the leaderships failed history than purely speculative (your favorite word) unearned benefit of the doubt at this juncture.

And it is true that Michael has largely been a failure, but like I said, he is likely to change based on public embarrassment.

And using bill as your benchmark is a flawed analysis from the get-go. And you know that.

It's improvement nonetheless. Michael has had about as many winning seasons as his father in a much shorter time.

 

[Krangodnzr]

@Krangodnzr - tell me again he didn’t say Simmons would be a locker room cancer.

He's essentially saying that will happen, not that he is.

 

[Stout]

#birdcity until proven otherwise

2023 Cards #birdshitty

Caw caw, biotches!

 

[Krangodnzr]

I’m glad you reported people discussion football. How freaking awful is that? Particularly when those same members of this community don’t report you and others for constantly attacking them as posters. Honestly, people are entitled to their different opinions. Put them on ignore if you don’t want to read them. Unfortunately ASFN has long been known for allowing a subset of posters to bash posters who express an opinion that doesn’t agree with theirs (and not the opinion itself). Your constant use of derogatory nicknames without consequence is a great example of this. Maybe take a moment and recognize that there’s always two sides to sports: winning and losing. One makes you feel good and one makes you feel bad. Thus it shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone on a sports board, much less about a team whose legacy has been far more losing than winning, that there are two sides to every discussion. Shame on you for your garbage. And frankly, shame on the board for allowing it to continue forever.

It's the same thing every year, even the years before the Cardinals have turned it around.

I have never "reported" people on this forum. I feel like the "Darksiders" constantly misquote and misattribute what I am saying, when everything I mean is clear in my post. Read it again.

Shame on me? That's pretty dramatic.

 

[Krangodnzr]

2023 Cards #birdshitty

Caw caw, biotches!

We can agree that this is #birdshitty.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think most human beings will make major changes when embarrassed to the extent that Michael has been. One can hope that he will, and it's reasonable to assume he mostly will because he already made major changes from his father.

This is fairly common in the NFL. I don't see this is really a negative.

You see the cracks that you want to see that are painted from a historical perspective that isn't necessarily applicable to the current team.

And it is true that Michael has largely been a failure, but like I said, he is likely to change based on public embarrassment.

It's improvement nonetheless. Michael has had about as many winning seasons as his father in a much shorter time.

Actually most human beings do not make changes. Most are stuck in ruts of their own making. Even moreso those who are at the top of the food chain who got there via nepotism or familial reasons. Those that didn’t earn their way up the chain typically are guilty of an arrogance that doesn’t allow to change. Bill never did, why would this apple fall far from the tree?

And yes, complete rebuilds are common, but that doesn’t warrant giving them the benefit of the doubt because such rebuilds fail than succeed in the nfl.

And the cracks aren’t historical. Tampering. Not historical. Roster deconstruction (I can only call it this because they haven’t even begun the reconstruction - at least I hope they haven’t). Not historical. Cracks exist. You refuse to acknowledge them due to your blind loyalty. Have you never sat back and asked yourself, why do I ALWAYS give the organization the benefit of the doubt? I mean I’d get it if it was now and again. But always? Seems curious.

And doubling down on using bill as a barometer. What’s the new saying? Poverty organization? Seems like poverty fandom. Yes please toss me that crusty week old moldy bread! It’s better than nothing!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

He's essentially saying that will happen, not that he is.

What’s the difference? It’s complete speculation and spin to make the move seem okay.